NefMoto

I had a play earlier today with the about map, as can bee seen in the 1st picture its values are either -4  or 18 and on the 2nd graph you can see that the switch happens at 4750rpm where the cam switches from 22 to around 1.

Then I tried setting the whole table to 18 so to give what I thought would be no advance but again at about 4500-4750 there is a switch occuring and although its not much there is stilll a few degrees advance, I'm going to see if any happens by setting the table to all -4 but I can only assume that the timing maps, ( I know they are not related ) which from kfzw to kfzw2 at this point also and if i was to make the map more progressive ie rather than -4 to 18 would this smooth out the jump you get in Maf reading at the same point.

I know also the VVT is either one or the other IE on/off, but has anyone test putting say 10 in the map and if this would give you say 10 degrees of advance and is the VVT capable of this?

if im wasting my time please someone tell me......

I think i may have found the answer on another post... ;D

I forgot to mention I was looking into this with regards increased back pressures with a larger turbo.

did you see the cam phase change when you changed the 18,-4?
there are several maps which have these in.. when I was looking about the other day

Hi

There where 5 other maps with KFN and with 18 or -4 in them, they where KFNWKHLLE which was for the CAT heat up, KFNWKKE which was the same but was a 2

Then KFNWLLE for overlap at idle
and KFNWWLE and KFNWWLLE which where warm up idle overlap.

I've only tried KFNWSE as it looked and translated as the only map to change the cam whilst driving rather than a warm up "assisting map"

So in answer to your question yes I did see a cam phase change If you look at the 1st graph i posted you can see the cam switch from around 22 to 1 I'm also going to change the map tonight so it changes over earlier Ie 3000rpm just to confirm that this map controls the intake, but from having tried 18 in all the fields and then -4 and getting solid cam angles I am pretty confident it controls the angle of the cam.

found these also.. whether relevant or not, not had time to play
(http://www.badger-5.com/bin/logs/vvt-map-names.JPG)

Interesting, seems a lot more than I had seen.

I am soley going on the fact that I am logging WNWI_W which is the camshaft angle. When I logged this with the table at 18 i got the first graph and it shows on the axis that degreesKW are around 1, when I then logged it with the table at -4 i got the 2nd graph which shows the degreesKW at around 22.

Now where -4 and 18 come from I'm not sure I guess it was the optimal the VAG decided but it shows that by changing these values you can change the cam angle and also the point at which it switches.

I plan on running a table at 11 tonight to see if i can get a camangle in the middle. But I was always under the impression the VVT was an on/off thing and could not be controlled in between?

If I can find the map for the lupo I'll have a play... Its not leaping out at me tho whilst trying to find it tho :( ( 032HJ ecu)... looking for it on a polo 032TL also... as its here and got an IHI hybrid on it)

is this map same as with KFTLWS.1-Kennfeld für tL - Berechnung aus Drosselklappenwinkel, Nockenwelle spät from motronic 3x ?

032hj it should be at 0x01767e
Axis 0x01310a & 0x013086

I don't have a TL bin to find it, sorry

So I did a run last night, open road, with the table set at 11 (18 + -4 / 2) soo the average and the cam angle was still around 1 when logged but the car was very noticeably bogged down at low RPM . Cam angle being what it would be at high rpm, I then put the table to -10 as a test and got 23 cam angle through out but what a difference when driving! The car was just do much more lively . I got a peak maf reading of about 10grams less with this compared with when it's at 18( stock) so it Definately makes a difference with the cam switch. I still haven't found out where the -4 and 18 come from as it seems just on off and nothing inbetween. I guess the benefit would be to have the can switch earlier or later especially for large turbos that spool later compared to stock turbo.

cool.. excellent. found it and added it now.
TL bin here> in case you have spare time to find it there too.. :)
http://badger-5.com/bin/logs/06A906032TL.zip (http://badger-5.com/bin/logs/06A906032TL.zip)

I'll do it this afternoon for you Bill.

awesome,, cheers dan   ;D

0x0177CE
axis 0x01311a and 0x013096

If you need maps for 032TL, i can help you!

many thanks..
I think I have got what I need so far, matching against a TT 180 damos.  aligning these things to build a map pack does my head in at times.. especially those which have axis in varied locations away from the body data.

Damos from the HN Was a pretty near match and when used with map analyser comparing the 2, when you know the HN map address it was pretty straight forward.

Hmmm. close but not quite...?
(http://badger-5.com/bin/logs/kfnwse-TL-map.JPG)

axis are'nt the same as you said but look correct, but the data is wrong partially

close to other same maps but nothing there.. 180TT_damos comparison
(http://badger-5.com/bin/logs/kfnwse-TL-map-closest-but-not.JPG)

Beyond Compare 3 is a cracking tool for finding similar hex data in a bin, source bin one side, similar bin on the other, easy.

If that helps....

finding changes is'nt the issue, lol
knowing wtf they proport to however is another thing entirely..

Sorry Bill.

here you go, I just mis read the address or something similar...:-)

0x1766a

0x1305c & 0x130E0

Also interesting that yours has all 18's and the 225's have the -4. I am confident that the =4 which equates to 23 degrees definately helps with the engine as it give more advance and thus better driving at low RPM especially with a larger turbo, which is almost like a NA car until the spook kicks in, I guess the extra advance aids the performance of the engine, Mine is definately more responsive when there is advance over having no advance IE 18's across the table.

Its good for similarities.... Therefore it is good for porting a definition from one ecu to another when axis and tables are scattered around... Just another tool for the kit

I'll have a look... however... for finding maps, between different files.. (ecu variants) the data is not necessarily the same, so comparing data will not show anything useful I don't expect.

cheers Dan
example below.. Polo 150bhp motor and a 225 TT motor..  Yours looks like the TT one yea?
(http://badger-5.com/bin/logs/kfnwse-TL-vs-018CB.JPG)

Yes mine is the same as the TT as I'm currently running the 018CB from a TT . I looked at a couple of 180bhp from a TT's and they are the same as your lupo.

Be interesting to see if the TT values  on your lupo make a difference as its now got a bigger turbo on it.

yep.. exactly what I am going to try... seeing as its turbo is a hybrid k04 inside a k03 wrapper..
worth a punt.. when I get a spare mo..
thanks for your help dan
top banana

Do you think this is what the VVT attack remap is ? Are they just playing with the Vvt map to get better performance ? Also I looked through the maps associated and saw DZWNWSUE which is a delta map for timing when overlap is present, it's set to zeros on mine but maybe more timing can be added when and only when overlap is present rather than using kfzw or kfzw2 which would be all the time.

I also saw WNWEMAX is at 22 degrees and whether this can be up'd as well.
I have a feeling though I might be getting a bit over my head with it all but will test none the same,  just because.

pretty sure this may have been covered before somewhere but I was looking through some of the logs i've recently done and all of them have this Blip in them at the point where the cam switches over. In the one below there is a loss of approx 24grams on the MAF when the cam switches. Taking the 0.8 that's about 30Bhp when the cam switches... it obviously regains this but it takes 500rpm to get back to where it was..

this blip is on factory vvt change map wise yea?

Yes, this was done before I started changing these maps

tried briefly saturday to alter the kfnwse settings on the lupo.. No change in function however, it just did'nt do anything. No cam state change at all.
something else needs to also be changed I presume

I tried it again today, just changing the 100 scale across the board to 18 and the log showed cam static at about 1.5 degree advance through out the rpm, now whether the logging is mis reporting that I can't answer , how are you seeing that there was no change? according to my logs the cam did not advance as it would in stock map configuration.

I was logging with vagcom a datablock (which I cant recall its number typing this) to see its status change and its position in kw..
It remained inactive

This is a vvt car, but a k03 car originally, so although its got active vvt numbers in some of the warmup tables, the KFNWSE one was set to not do anything as std, so when I copied a normal K04 vvt set of data into it, I hoped it would come alive.. but it remained inactive.  dyno runs also identical when I did the test

regards
bill

So anyone test what table should be adjusted to make KFNWSE & VVT Enabled ?

You already got it. KFNWSE is the map for intake camshaft control. CDNWS also.

I also started a thread a while back to see if I could help spool, but haven't gotten a chance to do any logging. Once I get a few issues sorted I'll try to get some logs.

Guys - Could you check my adress of KFNWSE ? -  I think it is 1767E / x axis 1310a  /y 13086 ?

rpm axix 720 , 1000,1240 1480, 1720 , 2000 2520 3000 3520 4000 4520 5000 5520 , 6000 6520 6997 6998 6999 7000  normal ?
load 20 35 50 60 70 80 90 100%

file is 032hjbox

Looks correct to me, however your RPM axis is wrong I believe. The map is 8x16 I have the RPM axis at 134BC in my 018ch file. It is the axis before KFZWOP/2 and after KFLDIMX/DRL.

Axis are correct, yes the rpm axis is a little odd, but I guess as the map isn't used stock they weren't to worried about values! The load axis is actual load not % so don't make your axis 0-100

I would not be so sure that your map is defined correctly.
Check in IDA and verify it.
There are a few maps with similar values in the same area, only correct way is through code.

i define this map in corelation to 018CB box , looking into ols structure using my eyes , i found those adresses. i don't have IDA, could someone check for me ? Or tommorow i will simply try to flash and look it will work or not.

also - i didn't scaled load axis - stock was 0-100%, little odd , because in 225 BAM there is 0-150% load.

So anyone can help with enable cam regulation on non-BAM 1.8T engine?
I trying to play with KFNWSE with no luck, cam regulation is OFF :(
CDNWS is 3 by default

I think CDNWS should be 02 in hex.

why? CDNWS is a diagnostic bit and BAM also has '03'

trying to analyse BAM maps and testing it tommorow

Cause all that I've seen 1.8t and 2.7t have 02 value.

You aint seen enough :P

CDSLS is always right after btw. That can help narrow it down as well.

Thats why I said "I think"  ;)

so after few hours
i made this changes by copying from 018CB

01/05/2014 04:13:06  Scalar:    CWNWSG changed from 1.00  (0x01) to 0.00  (0x00).
01/06/2014 04:19:32  Scalar:    CDTENWS changed from 220.0  (0x00DC) to 733.0  (0x02DD).
01/06/2014 04:31:50  Table:     KFNWSE changed.
01/06/2014 04:39:37  Scalar:    CDTENWSE changed from 326.0  (0x0146) to 745.0  (0x02E9).
01/06/2014 05:40:52  Table:     FNWTME changed.
01/06/2014 05:47:10  Table:     KFNWWLE changed.
01/06/2014 05:58:35  Scalar:    TANW changed from -48.00 Grad C (0x00) to -15.00 Grad C (0x2C).
01/06/2014 06:16:45  Table:     TVNWSTTM changed.
01/06/2014 06:27:14  Scalar:    WNWSEAPP changed from 0.00  (0x0000) to 2304.00  (0x0900).

and it works!
cant say that its really big difference but better than a stock

it would be very interesting if someone can take a logs with/without VVT because its hard to me in winter slippery roads :)

here is the stock 032DR file with only VVT section modified

oops
i forget to put SRL08NEUW axis into VVT section
dont forget to change values in it!

I think you're find on small framed turbos like the k03s it makes little difference as boost onset is quite quick and the advantage of early opening inlet doesn't make that much difference, on bigger turbos though where boost doesn't come on till later it can help to make the car drive better in a N/a style ie no boost...

Probably why it was never used on k03s and only emissions on the k04..

I can assure you though having cams open too long will make things worse not better..

Remember as well you now have kfzw2 as well as kfzw to work on!

I have K04-022.. and it helps until turbo spools at 2500+ yep its not 3071 but why not getting a little help?
You re right about KFZW2, but i have no ideas how to tune it with cam overmap.. difficult to me
what do you means by "too long", rpms?

anyway the most important thing - that it works, so if not me, than someone else can use it

Absolutely, great work...

When cam switches the timing maps will as well..

Too long means if you keep the cam open past 5000 rpm then you will loose not gain.. It really only helps below the point max boost is reached..

yes, thanks
i know that KFZW2 used when cam adjustment switched on
but dont know how to proper tune angles in it.. i see that is no knocking when cam adj. on and that is good starting point i think

i set cam adjustment at 1500-3000 rpms with 31-150 load

Changed these values in my current 064 HN file..

After a few beers.

Will see if it works tomorrow; meeehhh.

Earlier in the thread (his only post I believe) PRJ mentioned he thought the rpm axis was wrong, as at the high end, the last 3 rows are almost the same. That's how it looks in the .xdf posted a couple posts back as well. I'm struggling to correctly define the axis' as well in some other ME7.5 maps, because I'm getting the same when comparing to well defined .kp's, and I don't have the ability or tools to dissemble. Some questions..

1.) Do all ME7.5 cam maps have the same load/rpm axis between ecu's? Some went to 100 load, and others to 150.
2.) Are they off towards the end of the rpm axis like in the posted .xdf? Is that correct?

Little late on this :) but to answer a question that I did not see answered: -4 stands for 4 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) and 18 stands for 18 degrees ATDC, giving a total of 22 degrees. Knowing this however, does not really help me understand how I can utilize the KFNWSE map to help me get little more boost earlier.

Here's my stock map, which is for a K04 turbo on the S3 BAM engine (I am currently running a GT2871R 0.86 @~1.9bar):

(http://www.nireti.com/audi/kfnwse.jpg)

and here is an image that shows what this translates into:

(http://www.nireti.com/audi/vvtstockcams.jpg)

So the question is, should it be set to operate at higher RPM maybe up to 5000, would it help if the cams are overlapping for a while when full boost is already achieved?

Much appreciated!

Awaken, if you find out more, please let us know. Im currently trying to find out the same thing then you, i dont understand how i have to edit this values to take effect.

Br

If you want to find out what effect it has on airflow, you could try to run it in both fixed positions and log. I would want to see where the lines cross and make the cam switchover at or slightly before that point. More airflow > more fuel > more power.

You will always have higher airflow due to valve overlap, as a bunch of it is dumped into the exhaust, but the engine will still make less power at some point, because your backpressure will get much higher post combustion cycle and power will actually drop.

Only way to do this right is on a dyno.

I thought the whole idea of vvt was to recycle some of the exhaust gasses into the intake... The pre turbo backpressure will always be higher than the boost pressure in our application  ???
I do agree that in order to see actual results you need to measure actual engine output. I just suggested that measuring flow over boost has my preference since boost might as well mean there is a restriction of flow...(and most people get really hung up on getting "maximum boost")

I spent quite a lot of time a few years back playing with the cam switching on K04 hybrids to see if it made any difference, and I can assure you that it does. It varies from turbo to turbo due to spool rates and whilst it didn't make a huge amount of difference to top end power as obviously you will have the cams closed , at lower rpm and off boost if can make the car far more drivable. Noticeably having the cams closed constantly made the car very flat whilst off boost where as having them open like a NA made it better.

I think its been mentioned before but remember the timing maps switch as well at cam change over.

You will tend to find switching the cams to closed just after peak boost/spool is the best imo.

Wait until you have an MED9 and full control variable cam timing then it gets fun!!

Reduce back pressure pre turbo and you'll gain power top end

Less pre turbo pressure the better.

I've seen on a engine dyno a non vwg engine go from 320 to 350bhp by changing to a larger turbine housing and reducing overlap via verniers, lost a little low end spool and torque but huge gain at the top

I have a VVT tensioner for my new block, and I will experiment with it! Low end gains are always welcome to me  :)
Sticking to ME7 for now  ;)

I was advised by a friend who's a really good mapper to bring up the VVT control "on" up to 5000 rpm. He said he has tested on another S3 with similar big turbo and there were some gains in terms of spool time. I haven't dynoed the car, but it feels alright.

Stock vvt k04 switch over is 4500rpm,
K04 is at full boost by 3500rpm
So takes 1000rpm after full boost it before it switches over.

At least for the S3 with K04 it is up to 4000, not 4500, but that doesn't matter much. The question is for a bigger turbo can we go more RPM over full boost, say if full boost is 4500, can we go with overlap up to 6000, has anyone tried something similar and does it gain anything?

The discussion is waste of time.
It needs to be tuned on the dyno.

Overlap up to 6000 rpm is probably too much even for a GT35R.

I threw caution to the wind and just tried it out on my k03s (I know it spools fast in the first place :) )
Set it from 1300-3000 RPM and from 30% load.

I don't know if it's a pseudo effect but it feels like it spools faster and smother, and the car feels more driveable in low load/city driving :)

I'm going to make some logs and compare this weekend :)

IMO there is no way you can know this w/o a dyno.

It may not even show up in logs unless you are extremely meticulous about taking logs (only change one thing at a time in the bin, same road, same conditions, etc).

Im going to be as scientific as i can, taking multiple logs of cam control off and on(only thing changed) with completely reset trims on the same road, same direction, after a similar cooling run :)

maybe its a waste of time, maybe it isn't. there's only one way to find out.
and it gives me a cuple of hours of something "productive" to do :P

Just keep in mind even something as simple as changing when you roll on the throttle can alter spool.

My thought was setting cruise control to the same speed each run, and just clapping the throttle to 100% :P

Did anyone try enabling VVT via the maps Fukenbroken stated? I tried enabling it on my 032 HJ and the cam switching works great, but my rlmax_w is cflatt lined for soem reason? Anyone had the same issue?