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Author Topic: lambda control issues  (Read 3909 times)
vvt18
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« on: December 30, 2020, 10:27:47 AM »

Hi all.
I tried to different TVUB (but the same krkte) for my injectors and i have some differences with them , between idle consumption and lambda control.
With:
1. lower TVUB  : idle instant consumption is 1.3l/h , lambda control at idle between 0.97-1.03 , 3rd gear WOT lambda control between 0.97-1.03
2. higher TVUB : idle instant consumption is 0.9l/h , lambda control at idle between 0.83-0.88 , 3rd gear WOT lambda control between 0.96-1.04

Some advice please about:
1.Is it normal to have the same lambda control at wot but at idle big difference?
2.is it normal to have with lower lambda control(0.83) less fuel consumption like with a normal lambda control (aproximatly 1)?
3.tvub affect lambda control at WOT?
4.if decrease krkte lambda control will increase?

Thanks.
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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 05:51:55 PM »

What is it that TVUB does?

Answer that, and all of the rest of your questions should become easy to answer.
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vvt18
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2020, 12:29:21 AM »

Is not like the theory must be.
With lower TVUB i must have lower consumption , lower open time but it is inverse, i had bigger consumption at idle and running too.

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nyet
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2020, 12:56:53 AM »

Is not like the theory must be.
With lower TVUB i must have lower consumption , lower open time but it is inverse, i had bigger consumption at idle and running too.

Consumption measured how? By what the ECU thinks the actual fuel volume is (likely wrong if both KRKTE and TVUB are wrong)? Over the course of an entire tank vs distance traveled?

Too many variables. Also, the more lambda control you see, the less likely the motor is always running at best fuel efficiency.

Stop worrying about fuel consumption. At this point it is quite literally the least useful metric there is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 12:59:37 AM by nyet » Logged

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vvt18
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2020, 01:02:40 AM »

Dear Nyet.
I saw the consumption on the tank too when i pay the petrol at gas station. The instrument cluster works and saw ok the consumption.
With lower tvub the lambda control is beautiful at idle and wot too , but the instant consumption on the instrument cluster is 1.3-1.4  L/H
With higher tvub , lambda control it's a disaster at idle but consumption is good on instrument cluster - 0.9-1.0 L/H, at wot it is ok too with this highet tvyb too.
I find what i have on the instant consumption on instrument cluster is exactly te_w in the log.
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2020, 01:04:26 AM »

Ignore consumption, get your lambda trims under control. If KRKTE and TVUB are wrong, te_w is wrong and indicated consumption is wrong.

You could also be running lean, which you don't want anyway. Unless you want to break things.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 01:06:32 AM by nyet » Logged

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tao13
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2020, 08:17:30 AM »

Hi.
I have the same problem with TVUB and lambda control at idle is very low but LTFT is -0.8 and consumption is ok (r59 idle log ) , and at WOT is ok 0.97-1.02 (r59 3rd log).
For my next logs i had NOLRA = 7 (disabled) and All values for FKKVS, KFLF , KFKHFM = 1.
If adjust krkte (decrease) for example from 0.048 to 0.043 , lambda control will be ok aproximatly 1.00 at idle but in WOT is bad and goes to 1.10-1.12 from 1.02.
With other TVUB lambda control is ok at idle and wot too with same setup NOLRA = 7 (disabled) and All values for FKKVS, KFLF , KFKHFM = 1 , but consumption if very HIGH at idle and  in drive mode too.
Any suggestion if i can make something to adjust lambda control only at idle ?
I have stock bam maf and mlhfm is ok. Injectors are 730cc and i don;t have specification for them from BOSCH. I had help from a good guy from NEFMOTO , AURIAKA and tried some TVUB and KRKTE. Finaly i had that TVUB who works ok at idle and wot toowith GREATE LAMBDA CONTROL , but with very high consumption , specialy at idle.
Thanks

« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 08:30:31 AM by tao13 » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2020, 12:31:05 PM »

You will need to tune KFKHFM and/or KFFVS, preferably on a dyno at various load/rpm points.

You'll never have anything close to stock fuel consumption. If you are worried about fuel economy go back to stock.

Without a dyno and 3-4 months of calibration efforts you won't get there.

In any case, with trims at zero and lambda control at 1 at idle, you should not be seeing bad fuel consumption unless there is something wrong with your fueling and/or O2 setup.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 12:33:32 PM by nyet » Logged

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tao13
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2021, 05:40:50 AM »

Thanks Nyet .
I tried to adjust Fkkvs with fixer but the result was bad, specialy on marked cell with red in the attached image.. I made 2 times 30 minutes drive and i generated fkkvs.
With lambda control between 0.98-1.02 at idle i had instant consumption on the instrument cluster 1.4 L/h. I think it is huge! On highway at 150 km/h after 500km i had 12.8% consumption. With other TVUB settings i had maximum 11%.
Is it ok to let fkkvs all 1 and work with KFKHFM , you told me Nyet , right? KFFVS i don't find this map!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 05:42:38 AM by tao13 » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2021, 10:44:37 AM »

Thanks Nyet .
I tried to adjust Fkkvs with fixer but the result was bad, specialy on marked cell with red in the attached image.. I made 2 times 30 minutes drive and i generated fkkvs.
With lambda control between 0.98-1.02 at idle i had instant consumption on the instrument cluster 1.4 L/h. I think it is huge! On highway at 150 km/h after 500km i had 12.8% consumption. With other TVUB settings i had maximum 11%.
Is it ok to let fkkvs all 1 and work with KFKHFM , you told me Nyet , right? KFFVS i don't find this map!


Absolutely, there is no reason to use FKKVS if you can get the job done with KFKHFM.

Technically, FKKVS/KFLF is there to compensate for nonlinearity in fuel delivery, KFKHFM in MAF nonlinearity

Please, stop wondering about indicated fuel consumption. It's useless data *unless you are a OEM calibrator with access to a dyno*, because I have a hard time believing you'll get both fuel and MAF corrections perfect.

I don't even seem to be getting through here in conveying the relationship between calibrating all of FKKVS/KRKTE/TVUB/KFLF and KFKHFM at the same time and indicated fuel consumption. Can you see it?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 10:46:42 AM by nyet » Logged

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vvt18
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2021, 03:19:39 AM »

One question please: is it normal lambda control get down or up very much when camshaft change from KFNW? I attached a screen with it (green circle)!

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prj
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2021, 03:27:08 AM »

So much fail...

Of course your INDICATED consumption is higher with lower TVUB and lower with higher TVUB.
TVUB is injector offset, it is not part of consumption calculation in the ECU.
The actual consumption is exactly the same.

The consumption in these ECU's is primitive. There is only a multiplication of opening time (te_w) via a constant. If you increase TVUB artificially so far that it does not represent the dead time when injector is not spraying, then of course the consumption figure is drastically lower, because the ECU sees a much lower te_w even if ti_w is exactly the same in both cases.

Looking at the consumption display on the cluster when tuning is the most idiotic thing you can do.
Tune your injectors correctly, after that measure consumption based on full tank to empty tank and miles/km driven method and correct the constant by the discrepancy. This is the LAST thing you do, after the car is fully tuned.

Is not like the theory must be.
With lower TVUB i must have lower consumption , lower open time but it is inverse, i had bigger consumption at idle and running too.
Really good to learn how an engine works before trying to tune it, so brainfarts like these are avoided!

TVUB is not something that should be tuned. You put the injectors on an injector bench, you increase the IPW until they start spraying liquid.
The last IPW where they don't spray liquid is the TVUB figure. You then change the voltage and repeat the measurement.
Because you are messing around randomly with something that should NEVER be messed around with, of course everything looks wrong.

If you are really so anal about seeing some small numbers on the display, just set the consumption constant to half of what it should be, and boom low consumption right?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 03:30:40 AM by prj » Logged

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tao13
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2021, 03:35:23 AM »

Thanks Nyet and PRJ. I will try to understand how can calibrate KFKHFM. Now i have the stock BAM maf case and sensor too. I had a long time the 83mm case with Bam maf sensor and i think my mlhfm was not good calibrate. But now if i will do KFKHFM calibration i put back 83mm case with bam maf sensor. Now i'm at 4.7v with stock maf and only 1.5-1.6bar. With 83mm case i was at 4.5V and i will have a lot before cap the maf voltage.

So much fail...

Of course your INDICATED consumption is higher with lower TVUB and lower with higher TVUB.
TVUB is injector offset, it is not part of consumption calculation in the ECU.
The actual consumption is exactly the same.

The consumption in these ECU's is primitive. There is only a multiplication of opening time (te_w) via a constant. If you increase TVUB artificially so far that it does not represent the dead time when injector is not spraying, then of course the consumption figure is drastically lower, because the ECU sees a much lower te_w even if ti_w is exactly the same in both cases.

Looking at the consumption display on the cluster when tuning is the most idiotic thing you can do.
Tune your injectors correctly, after that measure consumption based on full tank to empty tank and miles/km driven method and correct the constant by the discrepancy. This is the LAST thing you do, after the car is fully tuned.
Really good to learn how an engine works before trying to tune it, so brainfarts like these are avoided!

TVUB is not something that should be tuned. You put the injectors on an injector bench, you increase the IPW until they start spraying liquid.
The last IPW where they don't spray liquid is the TVUB figure. You then change the voltage and repeat the measurement.
Because you are messing around randomly with something that should NEVER be messed around with, of course everything looks wrong.

If you are really so anal about seeing some small numbers on the display, just set the consumption constant to half of what it should be, and boom low consumption right?
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tao13
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2021, 05:17:09 AM »

PRJ, thanks to show me how must calculate the tvub. IPW is the puls in ms not pwm, right?
I don't see the low consumption only on my indicator but the consumption was bad, trust me at the highway between 100-150km/h speed after 520 km i had 13% consumption.....is not so good, and was made with full tank calculation and it was exactly what instrument cluster shows me!
vladvlad, i have the same issue with lambda control , i think in that area my boost and yours goes over 1554 and lambda control is under control. PRJ, NYET can tell me if i'm wrong?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 08:00:55 AM by tao13 » Logged
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