NefMoto > Vehicles > Vehicle Tech > Audi A6 C6 V8 BVJ manual conversion - issues with MED 9.1.1
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Author Topic: Audi A6 C6 V8 BVJ manual conversion - issues with MED 9.1.1  (Read 6982 times)
Znip
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Hello!
This is my first post here, so this might be posted in the wrong section.. sorry in advance if so Smiley

I have a 2006 Audi A6 V8 4.2 FSI (enginecode BVJ) which im gonna manual swap. The problem is that the BVJ never was delivered with a manual. So the car will not try to start since it doesnt know if the car is in park or not. Is this something a tuner can trick with the ECU to fix, or do I need some kind of TCU removal adapter etc? For older Audis, you could simply jump 2 cables in the harness going to the automatic gearbox to tell the ECU it was in neutral.. But im not sure its that easy anymore.
The Audi S5 4.2 FSI (enginecode CAUA) also comes with MED 9.1.1 and has a manual option. Is that an option, for a tuner to flash the ECU with that file?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 10:14:43 AM by Znip » Logged
prj
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2023, 11:29:34 AM »
The answer is mostly "no".
The B8 file will for sure not work because the CAN matrix is completely different.
B7 and C6 are also different enough that the file won't work. At least one big issue is right away that the 4F has an ECU controlled starter and a B7 does not.

As there is no manual file for the car, before you start doing any mechanical work find someone who can do the ECU.
There's not many that can do a proper job.

If you can not find anyone, don't even start the job, because best case you will be left with a car that does not run right and worst case with a non-starter.
The ECU is only one small issue, the much bigger issue will be the ABS controller. That won't be able to be coded to manual and the moment you disconnect the TCU your dash will light up like a christmas tree and the ABS unit won't work.

Pro tip for you - the software is the hard part, and a correct job will most likely cost more than the gearbox and the mechanical labor combined, if an ABS that works half-decently can even be found at all.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 11:33:50 AM by prj » Logged
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Znip
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2023, 04:42:22 AM »
Quote from: prj on July 02, 2023, 11:29:34 AM
The answer is mostly "no".
The B8 file will for sure not work because the CAN matrix is completely different.
B7 and C6 are also different enough that the file won't work. At least one big issue is right away that the 4F has an ECU controlled starter and a B7 does not.

As there is no manual file for the car, before you start doing any mechanical work find someone who can do the ECU.
There's not many that can do a proper job.

If you can not find anyone, don't even start the job, because best case you will be left with a car that does not run right and worst case with a non-starter.
The ECU is only one small issue, the much bigger issue will be the ABS controller. That won't be able to be coded to manual and the moment you disconnect the TCU your dash will light up like a christmas tree and the ABS unit won't work.

Pro tip for you - the software is the hard part, and a correct job will most likely cost more than the gearbox and the mechanical labor combined, if an ABS that works half-decently can even be found at all.

Thanks for the reply.
The swap has already been done, so if this doesnt work I`ll have to go buy some standalone ECU. I hope I dont need to go down that road. The ABS controller and any other control modules are further down the road.. at first I just wanna get it to crank Smiley (so I can see that my flywheel and clutch-setup is correct for timing)
The car is originally an quattro manual.

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prj
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2023, 06:20:32 AM »
Yeah, that's how not to do it.
As I said, the mechanical work is the easy part.
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BlackT
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2023, 09:51:07 AM »
I am running 2.7T ME7.1 ECU with B7 ABS modul from 3.0TDI(but coded to 4.2 engine) and C6 trans from 4.2 MPI

So you can use ECU from B7 (if there is a 4.2 engine) but no auto start. And some warning will be on dash(maybe it can be solved with ECU software)
But you can use your ECU, only need to mod CAN matrix so it send to rest of car it is manual
Didn't try with MED9 but on ME7 there is not too much difference in drivinig when Auto ECU is on manual car(rev haging during shift but it can be solved with tune)
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elias
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2023, 10:47:21 AM »
I think the easiest way to make it "work" would be to attach the TCU outside of the car and simulate its sensors. You can switch to "neutral" and start up the car. Then you can try to simulate the CAN-Signals from the TCU using a arduino or something similar to make it work permanetly.
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prj
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2023, 11:42:34 AM »
Quote from: elias on July 04, 2023, 10:47:21 AM
I think the easiest way to make it "work" would be to attach the TCU outside of the car and simulate its sensors.
That's definitely not how to do it.

For some background info, I am the one who made the proper RS6 C5 manual software...
ECU needs to see the clutch.
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fragolas
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2023, 03:00:55 PM »
Vag  is not my area of expertise, but don't you need to change CWKONFZ1 and some other things. Also wire the clutch signal.

Enviado do meu M2102J20SG através do Tapatalk
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elias
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2023, 04:27:10 PM »
Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
That's definitely not how to do it.
I understand thats its not the cleanest solution for the general "swap" problem, however i see its as a valid approach resolving the current "my car is not starting" situation. Researching the ECU without having a "working condition" car, is a waste of time.

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For some background info, I am the one who made the proper RS6 C5 manual software...
Thats awesome, however i dont see exactly how this helps here. The thread starter already sucesfully ignored your suggestions and done the hardware part. Doing the Software part now, will be nearly impossible as there is no working car anymore.


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ECU needs to see the clutch.
Not really from my point of view. ECU does not care about Clutch, except of reducing RPM as soon the clutch is pressed. Some folks does not like this feature and demand it deactivated (so called "No Lift Shift"). In this case you will get this feature for free and will have to pay money to get it "removed". Correct me if i am wrong @prj.
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prj
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 PM »
Quote from: elias on July 04, 2023, 04:27:10 PM
I understand thats its not the cleanest solution for the general "swap" problem, however i see its as a valid approach resolving the current "my car is not starting" situation. Researching the ECU without having a "working condition" car, is a waste of time.
No, that is not the soluton whatsoever. If you read the 2nd post he has a manual car where he is swapping this into, there is no wiring for the TCU present.
The moment the TCU broadcasts anything on the PTCAN on a manual car everything will light up like a christmas tree.
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Not really from my point of view.
Having the clutch logic in the ECU is absolutely essential for the car functioning normally. From starting the engine to holding idle.
Without a clutch switch and the correct calibration the RPM will run away in certain conditions and level 2 monitoring will hard reset the ECU.
It is clear you know nothing of what you're talking about, nor have you ever done anything like this.
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prj
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2023, 04:39:49 PM »
Quote from: BlackT on July 04, 2023, 09:51:07 AM
So you can use ECU from B7 (if there is a 4.2 engine) but no auto start. And some warning will be on dash(maybe it can be solved with ECU software)

B6/B7 S4 4.2 is port injected ME7.
The B7 RS4 has two throttle bodies and two ECU's.

So no you can't use an ECU from B7.

There does not exist a manual OEM ECU that will run this engine.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 04:42:24 PM by prj » Logged
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elias
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2023, 05:05:56 PM »
Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 PM
No, that is not the soluton whatsoever. If you read the 2nd post he has a manual car where he is swapping this into, there is no wiring for the TCU present.
Obviously he has to do some custom wiring. My idea was to put the TCU on a table nearby to the car(which is currenly not running at all). Then make some custom wiring which will connect the ECU to the TCU. Then simulate/stimulate the inputs of the TCU to allow the ECU to start the car, and then monitor the can-bus to be able to reproduce the TCU-Can-Commands.

Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 PM
The moment the TCU broadcasts anything on the PTCAN on a manual car everything will light up like a christmas tree.
Disagree. Why should it? My opinion: other ecus will ignore the can traffic coming from the TCU, as they does not care about it. Its same as you would send custom can-signals on the canbus.


Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 04:31:56 PM
Having the clutch logic in the ECU is absolutely essential for the car functioning normally. From starting the engine to holding idle.
Without a clutch switch and the correct calibration the RPM will run away in certain conditions and level 2 monitoring will hard reset the ECU.

It is clear you know nothing of what you're talking about, nor have you ever done anything like this.
Ok , i think you are talking about more modern ECUs and i completely agree that I have no experience on them. I have done a manual swap on a subaru legacy GTB JDM spec, and there such problems did not exist. It was recommended to add the clutch pedal sensor to the wiring harness, but car was running fine even without it(without considering the "no lift shift"). Heck the whole manual/automatic conversion process was done using "shorting one wire to GND", no software modifications involved. But ok, cannot compare apples with oranges.
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prj
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2023, 05:12:49 PM »
Quote from: elias on July 04, 2023, 05:05:56 PM
Obviously he has to do some custom wiring. My idea was to put the TCU on a table nearby to the car(which is currenly not running at all). Then make some custom wiring which will connect the ECU to the TCU. Then simulate/stimulate the inputs of the TCU to allow the ECU to start the car, and then monitor the can-bus to be able to reproduce the TCU-Can-Commands.
Not needed when ECU can be patched. And the ECU needs to be patched for immo anyway.
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Disagree. Why should it? My opinion: other ecus will ignore the can traffic coming from the TCU, as they does not care about it. Its same as you would send custom can-signals on the canbus.
I am telling you how it works. End of story.
Don't believe me - try it yourself. Every single powertrain controller will be in limp mode with "incorrectly coded" DTC the moment that TCU hits the bus.
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Ok , i think you are talking about more modern ECUs and i completely agree that I have no experience on them. I have done a manual swap on a subaru legacy GTB JDM spec, and there such problems did not exist. It was recommended to add the clutch pedal sensor to the wiring harness, but car was running fine even without it(without considering the "no lift shift"). Heck the whole manual/automatic conversion process was done using "shorting one wire to GND", no software modifications involved. But ok, cannot compare apples with oranges.
Yes, let's compare a jap ECU with the complexity of a child's toy to a space shuttle. Because that's what this is.

The real solution is to swap autobox in it and call it a day. The guy can do mechanical work, that's something he can accomplish.
The ECU - not.

I would rate doing the ECU correctly at ~10k EUR. It's gonna take weeks even for me, and I know exactly what to do. Have tools to write the cal area only to have lower flashing time etc.
The difficulty is not getting it to start (although if you're not good at reverse, that's gonna be a problem), but recalibrating the whole idle pid from scratch to work right and implementing clutch logic. Then recalibrating DASHPOT, LSD and ARMD.

Don't get me wrong, I am not offering. I don't do calibration since 3 years.
Worth it on the C5 RS6? Totally. I made way more than that on selling the software.
But on some random N/A 4.2 shitshow? Hell no.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2023, 04:16:58 AM by prj » Logged
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Znip
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2023, 01:11:42 AM »
Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 06:20:32 AM
Yeah, that's how not to do it.
Quote from: elias on July 04, 2023, 04:27:10 PM
The thread starter already sucesfully ignored your suggestions and done the hardware part.

I didnt ask for opinions in which order im building this project. I simply asked if its possible to trick the ECU or use some other MED 9.1.1 software instead.
The only useful I got out of this thread is that the 4F has a ECU-start and the B7 does not.. (I guess you mean B8)
Quote from: prj on July 04, 2023, 05:12:49 PM
But on some random N/A 4.2 shitshow? Hell no.
Heh. What you think about this car is irrelevant, as it is a high value, both economically and sentimentally, to me.
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prj
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2023, 03:51:11 AM »
Quote from: Znip on July 10, 2023, 01:11:42 AM
The only useful I got out of this thread is that the 4F has a ECU-start and the B7 does not.. (I guess you mean B8)Heh.
No he meant the B7.
The B8 S5 has a different immo and a completely different CAN matrix, so that isn't even in the picture.
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