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prj
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 11:53:35 AM »
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Thats with your own MAFless tune or you buy the tune from somewhere ? And your car is with or without ESP system ? ESP can work pretty OK even with MAFless. It will not be as perfect as without the limp mode, because the ECU's torque calculations are not quite on target, but it is possible to make it work and there are a few ways to accomplish this. Of course if you do nothing, it will not work. |
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kelesha
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 01:56:43 PM »
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ESP can work pretty OK even with MAFless.
It will not be as perfect as without the limp mode, because the ECU's torque calculations are not quite on target, but it is possible to make it work and there are a few ways to accomplish this. I know its possible, question here is "how".......... |
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prj
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 02:20:45 PM »
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I know its possible, question here is "how"..........
There are a few different ways, but sorry I don't want to share this for free here. The reason is that I don't like MAFless tunes, I dont think that this is the right way to go and I don't want to share this public to create even more of them. If someone is willing me to pay for that info, it is a different question, and there are a few cars running successfully with ESP and MAFless with my solution. |
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kelesha
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 02:54:29 PM »
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The reason is that I don't like MAFless tunes, I dont think that this is the right way to go and I don't want to share this public to create even more of them. Right way or not, strange is that almost all high powered ME7 equiped cars run mafless........ For example here in Bulgaria we have Audi S3 with 2.0l stroker, GTX35 turbo, 1000cc injectors, 4bar MAP and mafless tune, around 700hp on crank, fully street car with 1350kg weight without driver, best time on 1/4mile 10.3sec with 220km/h, engine is still alive and even its for sale because next engine will be 6cyl over 1000hp.......for me nothing wrong with mafless tunes, i like them and will use them even on R32 turbo conversions if thats possible, unfortunately till that moment its not......... |
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prj
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 03:22:29 PM »
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The problem is, you are running Alpha-N.
Basically limp mode on ECU on a tiny map...
You don't have to agree with me, no problem.
It is possible to make it work more or less, but I don't want people who are new to this blowing stuff up, because they are taking away the primary load input in the ECU.
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nyet
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2012, 05:22:21 PM »
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Right way or not, strange is that almost all high powered ME7 equiped cars run mafless........
So go ahead and ask those hacks how they do it. Even better, ask them why they are doing it MAFless. |
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kelesha
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« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2012, 02:22:45 AM »
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Even better, ask them why they are doing it MAFless.
The reason for mafless tunes is clear, its the only problems what MAFs cause on high powered cars. Anyway to run maf on pressure side is bad idea when in same time you have possibility to run without maf at all, sure both ways are cheating but mafless will cause less problems. |
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prj
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« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2012, 06:08:09 AM »
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There is plenty of cars in the states making 700+ whp on the Pro-M units without issues as well  |
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kelesha
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« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2012, 06:13:02 AM »
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Plenty of cars run mafless too, but most important is that almost all record holders equiped with motronics run mafless  |
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matchew
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« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2012, 11:59:18 AM »
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There are also gold medal winners in the paralympics |
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nyet
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« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2012, 12:05:51 PM »
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This is the dumbest argument i've ever seen.
Correlation != causation
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kelesha
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« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2012, 03:09:29 PM »
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Funny topic here again, why dont delete all mafless related threads in this forum ? Seems mafless tune is big NO NO when we talk about motronics ? Same way we can tell that tuning is big stupidity what anyone can made with his car, because its not the way "they made it in factory".....if you ask my father thats absolutely true, if you ask me.....not so..... Nyet........ i love you too  |
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sn00k
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« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2012, 04:06:22 AM »
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i think they are simply trying to tell you that crippling a very sophisticated ECM, perhaps the most sophisticated back in ~01, is not a good idea. the me 7.x was clearly 10years ahead of its time, compared to the ECMs used by other manufacturers, even today most manufacturers ECMs dont even come close to its flexibility and accuracy.. ..and by removing its primary input, going into limp-mode, you technology-wise end up back in the late seventies again, similar to an old haltech E6K, now why would you want to do that..? ..when you could use the ECM as intended and have 100 times higher precision in fueling, spark, boost, cam-control etc.. under ALL conditions. sure, you can run it mafless, theres just nothing to gain from it, compared to learning how to tune it and using it as intended.. just my 2c  |
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kelesha
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« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2012, 09:05:59 AM »
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sn00k all what you wrote is true, but in real world you NEED to made a lot of compromises when you try to run same engine with same stock ECU but with 2 or 3 times more power !!! Like i already wrote to run MAF on pressure side is same "cheating" like to run mafless, or may be someone here already test what is flow difference on different MAFs when elements are on 1000mbar/20 degree and 3500mbar/50degree ? If you cant trust the MAF how you can be sure that you tune corectly ? We can say "try and error" right ? Or you may say "OK why to put the MAF on pressure side, lets try to run it normal intake side", no problem for that reason you cant use BOSCH HFM5 anymore if you want to go above 600hp(crank). Even on close to that power level you need to have right made intake piping(not close to turbo), because in other way HFM5 will be easy blown. To run more than 600hp on crank with real meassured airflow you need to use PRO-M, HPX or any other aftermarket MAF, i know several guys here run these MAFs and all they know how MAF values drift on idle, that way you can forget for "like stock" idle, to have almost good idle with aftermarket MAF it need to be inside not more than 3" housing, but to run turbo with 4" intake and tap it to 3" is nothing more than stupid. Dont even want to wrote about funny transfer function "calculators" depend of housing diameter, their values are not even close to real airflow !!! If you dont believe try some test yourself, put RS4 HFM5 on your car, run it on street or on dyno and log the airflow, then change the MAF with HPX or PRO-M with suitable "calculated" transfer function and test again......if you even can drive your car normaly you will see BIG difference on airflow meassured with HFM5 Anyway i will be happy if someone here try to share details about good Motronic equiped street car with 800hp or more on crank what run with factory calibrated MAF on intake side ? Dont give examples with blow thru MAF setups, like i wrote they are same "stupid" cheating like mafless, because airflow is not real meassured anymore....... And other interesting fact is who from you guys what dont like mafless, have experience with cars driven with mafless setups, how you know about drivability, power delivery, econony, safety and etc ? |
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sn00k
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« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2013, 04:44:37 PM »
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ofc you need to make compromises, but the engine can still be tuned using the ECM as intended. Blow-thru is perhaps not the way to go, since you would need temp & pressure sensors in the MAF to accurately calculate the airflow from the HFM-signal.. im fairly sure that this can be done tho, since there are MAF-sensors available with built in temp-sensor and one could use the map-sensor for pressure reference.. this would also require some creative coding. wouldnt personally use calculators etc.. as for the pro-M and HPX sensor there are calibration datasheets with MEASURED air-volumes which can be implemented & interpolated with good accuaracy. its true that a large diameter decreases accuracy at low flowrates, i.e idle, but idle is not too hard to tune anyway. im not saying i dont LIKE mafless, im saying the increased accuracy of a torque modelling ecu based on MAF is advantageous.. far more advantageous than crippling the system and going 20 years back in development.. but sure, it can be done, no doubt about that i think most of the people reading here have tuned quite alot of other ECUs, mostly without MAFs, fact is the ME7 is the first torque-based platform i myself have worked with.. the rest were map/TPS-based like every other aftermarket ECU available on the market today and 30 years back.. haltech, digifant, autronic, motronic, ms, vems, emerald, nira, vipec etc etc. |
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