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Author Topic: Who owns ECU tunes, and what do people consider stealing?  (Read 102580 times)
AARDQ
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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 09:46:23 AM »

How is it different than modifying any other consumer product?  Plenty of engine builders will pop 11:1 compression pistons into a customer's engine for pay.  The engine designer had a specific set of goals in mind with his original creation; however, the customer (and his service provider, the engine builder), had other ideas.  Taken one step further, let's say the carb no longer functions as intended, so now we have to change jets etc.  And we want to advance the timing curve  ("tuning").  All of which we paid someone else to do.  (Well, not me, but you get the idea.)  As long as you aren't claiming that it came from the factory that way, and you don;t try and make a warranty claim when something stupid you did bites you in the butt.

Not much different with this as far as I can see.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:48:35 AM by AARDQ » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 09:47:05 AM »

Sorry, let me clerify, disassembling, manipulating and reselling for profit seems like it should be illegal. Not the disassembling for personal use.

The law doesn't work that way, and if it did, it wouldn't have a carveout for personal use.
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nyet
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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 09:47:58 AM »

The law doesn't work that way, and if it did, it wouldn't have a carveout for personal use.

The fact that anybody thinks reverse engineering is unethical always frightens me.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
boomerro
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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 09:51:03 AM »

Are you here to stop people from disassembling code?  I don't see how it "should be illegal" or a form of stealing at all. 

If you buy an ECU you can do with it as you please.  It's no one's but your own IMO.  Modifying code and claiming it is your OWN code (ie tuning an ECU) is not right, because it's NOT yours, it's Bosch code that has been "messaged". 

Modifying and ECU and selling it is not wrong as long as you're not claiming the ECU/code is yours because you modified it. 

Tuners are just selling their services. If I make a map/complete tune for a car that is running a standalone I don't own the map/variables.  The end user does and even more so if I don't lock the map in the ECU the own is absolutely free to do with it as he pleases in the end.  He paid me to use my knowledge to program the ECU in his car.  You can't patent a bunch of random numbers (although I'm sure Apple would try).

You actually can patent numbers. Software is covered under intellectual property law.  Bosch developed checksums which are an anti-tuning method of keeping people who purchase cars from modifying the code.  You can manipulate your own ecu just like you can manipulate your own DVD but the moment you sell it you are getting into some serious trouble.
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ddillenger
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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2013, 09:52:21 AM »

Checksums were put in place to prevent engine damage in the event a file became corrupted, not to prevent tuning.
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boomerro
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2013, 09:56:36 AM »

Checksums were put in place to prevent engine damage in the event a file became corrupted, not to prevent tuning.

Then why does Bosch continue to spend money developing more methods to prevent flashing of alternative data to the ecu?
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littco
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »

.  Bosch developed checksums which are an anti-tuning method

Seriously!?!?
 
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AARDQ
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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 09:58:15 AM »

Seriously!?!?
 


See my comments re: warranty claims above.
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ddillenger
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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 09:58:36 AM »

Warranty claims, requests from manufacturers, things like that.

Bottom line, unless you're copying the hardware or rebranding the ecu (lol @ nyet's super duper ecu), you can modify the code however you like UNTIL someone tells you otherwise in a legally satisfactory manor.
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boomerro
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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2013, 10:00:56 AM »

The fact that anybody thinks reverse engineering is unethical always frightens me.

Reverse engineering to an extent is a huge gray area ethically. This can lead to potential legal trouble as well. Intellectual property is very interesting to me and I am trying to understand (without ip law education) where this gray area morally turns to an illegal act by a bunch of tuners.  

I don't think you can relate modifying an engine and selling it to modifying an ecu and selling it.
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nyet
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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2013, 10:08:11 AM »

Reverse engineering to an extent is a huge gray area ethically.

No. It is not. All of science is based on reverse engineering. What is ethically bankrupt is when lobbiests cram things like the DMCA down our throats, criminalizing something that should be a civil matter.

Quote
This can lead to potential legal trouble as well. Intellectual property is very interesting to me and I am trying to understand (without ip law education) where this gray area morally turns to an illegal act by a bunch of tuners.

The entire 'IP' regime (in the US anyway) is corrupt and broken, and has been for a century now.

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I don't think you can relate modifying an engine and selling it to modifying an ecu and selling it.

Of course I can.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
nyet
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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2013, 10:10:56 AM »

Software is covered under intellectual property law.
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Bosch developed checksums which are an anti-tuning method of keeping people who purchase cars from modifying the code.



Dude, quit while you are ahead.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2013, 10:11:26 AM »

Bosch developed checksums which are an anti-tuning method

Bosch did not develop/invent checksums.

They use checksums, just like many other mfg's of hardware/software to verify that the code being executed is sane.  It has nothing to do with tuner-protection.

Tuner protection is something that is thrown-around too loosely now a days.  And of course they're going to make it harder to tune the ECU's as time passes.  But not because you're a threat to Bosch, but because with the use of flashed ECU's people are taking advantage of car mfg's by using their warranties to cover MODIFED cars.  

If you crank the boost up on a K03 to 20psi and it lasts 6 months because you're over spinning it by working far outside it's efficiency range and then bring it into the dealership to have the turbo replaced for free that is STEALING.  And mfg's know this is happening and they are trying to curb that these days with various tactics (like making the ECU harder to be accessed, or with internal things like VAG's TD1 situation).

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boomerro
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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »

Seriously!?!?
 


Yes, seriously. Checksums were originally used to check the integrity of the ecu data but were continually developed into a way of protecting the data from unothlrozed modification.   Bosch has continued with this protection idea and developed further technology that I would consider "anti-tuning" technogy.

http://www.sharkperformance.co.uk/news/article.asp?id=129
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ddillenger
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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2013, 10:13:45 AM »

Hey Nyet-isn't that the like the third time you've used Riker and Picard this week?
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