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masterj
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« on: August 03, 2014, 11:38:02 AM »
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Hello, guys!  Here I am again with another crazy idea. Please don't judge my sanity and just answer if this is possible on 4cyl. I've searched google and all I found was usual parallel scheme, where half of exhaust gases go to each turbo. Now with only 4cyl engine exhaust gasses from two cylinders would not be enough to properly spin two k03 turbos, right? So, theoretically, would it be possible to connect them in sequence like in my drawn scheme? Also would the speed of exhaust gasses be enough to spin the second turbo (turbos in question here are k03)? Also, would that double the efficiency islands in combined compressor map of these two turbos?  Sincerely, masterj |
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cerips
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 02:30:53 PM »
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Also, would that double the efficiency islands in combined compressor map of these two turbos? Nope, for example if both turbos were operating in the peak efficiency part of the compressor map i.e. 73% you'd be operating at 53% (73% x 73%). At that efficiency air charge temperature is going to be pretty high! |
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silentbob
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 02:03:00 AM »
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If you want to know how a sequential setup with equal sized turbos can look like search for the TT Toyota Supra. The are also a couple of diesel engines with different sized setups like BMW 123d/125d, Daimler C250 and also engines from Opel and VW which are all 2l 4cyl. Then there are the 3l 6cyl BMW x35d/x40d/x50d, Audi and Jaguar biturbo diesels all with a different sized setup. When you do your research you will see it's not as simple as your drawing  Maybe also have a look at compound setups. A few have been done on Mitsubishi 4cly engines. Should be easier on a gasoline engine. |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 02:14:04 AM by silentbob »
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masterj
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2014, 03:40:56 AM »
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Nope, for example if both turbos were operating in the peak efficiency part of the compressor map i.e. 73% you'd be operating at 53% (73% x 73%). At that efficiency air charge temperature is going to be pretty high!
Oh ok, but that would produce around 2.2bar of boost combined(1.1 each at 73%), right? I kinda thought that if you have turbo producing 1.1bar of boost at % 73 efficiency i could use two turbos to push same boost but stress them less (0.55bar each). |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 03:45:02 AM by masterj »
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littco
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2014, 04:13:12 AM »
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Oh ok, but that would produce around 2.2bar of boost combined(1.1 each at 73%), right?
I kinda thought that if you have turbo producing 1.1bar of boost at % 73 efficiency i could use two turbos to push same boost but stress them less (0.55bar each).
BMw run the best setup I think on the 535 diesels 2 turbos, 1 small 1 large and 3 actuators. 1 for each turbo and then 1 to switch flow from the small to large when needed. |
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masterj
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2014, 04:29:04 AM »
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If you want to know how a sequential setup with equal sized turbos can look like search for the TT Toyota Supra. The are also a couple of diesel engines with different sized setups like BMW 123d/125d, Daimler C250 and also engines from Opel and VW which are all 2l 4cyl. Then there are the 3l 6cyl BMW x35d/x40d/x50d, Audi and Jaguar biturbo diesels all with a different sized setup. When you do your research you will see it's not as simple as your drawing Maybe also have a look at compound setups. A few have been done on Mitsubishi 4cly engines. Should be easier on a gasoline engine. It looks like compound setups are very similar in design, except that one turbo is feeding compressed air directly to the other, right? Looks simple enough |
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cerips
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2014, 12:30:22 PM »
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Oh ok, but that would produce around 2.2bar of boost combined(1.1 each at 73%), right? Nope, if each turbo produces 2.1 bar absolute the second turbo compresses the 2.1 bar absolute pressurised air from the first turbo by a factor of 2.1 to produce 4.41 bar absolute or 3.41 bar of boost. |
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masterj
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 12:50:38 AM »
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Nope, if each turbo produces 2.1 bar absolute the second turbo compresses the 2.1 bar absolute pressurised air from the first turbo by a factor of 2.1 to produce 4.41 bar absolute or 3.41 bar of boost.
that is with compound setup, right? I was talking about my idea when both turbos pushes air to intercooler and not turbo->turbo->intercooler->intake mani turbo->intercooler<-turbo v intake manifold both of them share hot exhaust gases one after the other but each of that turbo pushes fresh compressed air directly to intercooler not to one another |
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:11:11 AM by masterj »
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masterj
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 12:05:16 AM »
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silentbob
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 03:27:44 AM »
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Interesting find. I can't see how this will work properly with equal sized turbos just from looking at the PR over the turbine wheels. Excited to see the outcome  |
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flaattire
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 12:48:48 PM »
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To address your idea about the twin K03s on a divided exhaust mani, they would probably spool quite well. I've seen some surprisingly large turbos on single cylinder motos and those guys have no issue spooling.
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masterj
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 01:09:16 AM »
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New idea here...
Basically using one small turbo to spinup the huge one.
Let's say we have K04-015 hot side taking all the exhaust gasses. So this K04-015 from cold side will feed boost directly to some HUGE ass turbo hot side (the same would be as exhaust gasses). And this huge turbo cold side would go to engine intake. As I said small turbo will spin up huge turbo and allow minimize it's lag while providing huge benefits of air. Would this theoretically help huge turbo to boost way sooner than it would normally boost from exhaust gasses?
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hopsis
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 01:25:52 AM »
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Slightly off-topic, how about something like this: http://www.audiclub.fi/audifinns/showthread.php?t=89474&page=16, one guy here is driving with a turbo-/supercharged AAN. All the text is in finnish but there are lots of pictures of the setup. Twin-charge goodness begins on page 16. |
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A4Rich
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 06:52:35 AM »
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Maybe ElRey will jump in, I would like to see some updates on his project hereAnother interesting project here and continued here. |
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