NefMoto

Yawn. Clone tool basher on cue.

ME7 is boot mode, not BDM

my $ and all the other people who support and pay developers for genuine tools are what allow you leechers to have clones in the first place.

I for one dont intend to leach forever

Just until you start to tune cars that your clone won't flash. :)

i prefer to think you can never have too many tools.  :)

Leechers? So you're telling me you decided to get into tuning and straight away bought a legit OLS license and an original tool? Don't talk shit. I'm not a tuner, I'm a hobbiest. I tune my own cars and maybe the odd friends if they're game for a laugh. I'm not up for dropping 6 or 7k on tools that I'll only be using 1% of the protocols. If I decided to do it commercially, I'd want the support and reliability that original tools provide so would then invest. I think you'll find the majority of folk would go via this route too. Think about clones as being shareware.

If clones didn't exist, you'd find there wouldn't be nearly as many original sales as there are.

ah, yes, the "justifiable stealing" excuse is always my favorite.

"well, the line was really long and i was in an extreme hurry. i just didnt have the time to wait, so i just walked out. next time, ill pay."

you always have the option to use free(ly) available tools. i actually use several of them. nefmoto is extremely stable flashing me7 with vcds hexcan and me7sum works on files i dont have the correct ols dll for and files that ecufix doesnt recognize.

and to wrap this fully back around to the start. the OP was the one that said he had an original galletto. maybe you missed that part. so either way, my original statement still holds true.

There's a massive difference between not licensing a product and stealing a physical entity.

If you can find me a freely available tool to write to MED9, I'm all ears.

no, there is literally zero difference. stealing is stealing. it doesnt matter if its physical or digital theft.

Don't be ridiculous. If that was the case, why is copyright infringement not prosecuted under common law? Quite simply because it's completely different. Copyright infringement is just that - copyright infringement. There's no deprivation of an item. I've not removed something from someone - especially if it's something that, as a hobby user, I'm not going to buy anyway. There is no property deprivation. If I broke into MPPS HQ and removed a box with a lead and legit software, then I'd be stealing. But I'm not. You can try and argue the point but general and legal definition of theft says you're wrong.

If you're sitting there on your soap box telling me you've never used counterfeit / torrented software / warez or even music, then you're a down right liar.

we are back to the "justifiable theft" argument again. "well, i wasnt going to buy it anyways, so it doesnt matter that i stole it".

we can go at this until we are both dead. it is, simply put, theft. that is the long and short of it. it doesnt matter if you think its ok, why or why not for whatever reason, just dont lie to yourself about it.

If you don't delete the original, it isn't theft. It's copyright infringement, but only if it is unpermitted distribution of a copy.

You might argue it is "as immoral as theft" but that is a matter of personal opinion.

i would assume, as people that probably all likely work with some type of software/hardware development, that we would all agree that it is theft, no matter how you slice it.

maybe im wrong. i think i my opinion is obvious.

I work with both hardware and software development, and it's not theft. Nyet's definition is bang on the money. Theft is deprivation of property. No property is being deprived here - and money doesn't count before the pedant kicks in.

i must be a minority being in favor of supporting developers that supply tools, both hardware and software.

still not sure why. i can almost guarantee none of you work for free.

If you're so keen on copyright law being respected, I presume you completely erase the ECUs you work on and don't plagiarize the processor code and majority of the calibration data??

I refer back to my point that if you claim to have never used/dowloaded pirate software and/or music, you're a liar.

You're definitely in a minority, but it's not for the reasons that you claim. It's for unadulterated hypocrisy.

It's not about "being in favor of supporting devs", it's about being so self-righteous about it.

because i use the tools these people provide to support myself. i respect the service and product they provide.
they earned the money. i feel they 100% deserve it. these companies provide support when i need it, they provide updates for new protocols, they provide pin out documentation, etc.

if no one paid, and everyone used a "clone", there would be no more tools. give credit where credit is due is my point.

I've worked in embedded software for 25+ years.

The fact of the matter is, current copyright and patent law have crippled all kinds of innovation and progress.

I've seen it throughout my career, and continue to see it today.

The people who support the current schemes (e.g. DMCA, criminalizing copyright infringement, extending copyright terms, enabling patent trolls) are a cancer.

The people IN the industry (as programmers and developers) that don't see this are naive and have been brainwashed, IMO.

i am not saying people should go to jail for using clones or anything of the like.

my point is you are hurting the very people that provided you the product in the first place.
without paying customers (aka everyone using clones or a serial # generator), there is no more $ to continue to provide or support a product.

to have such a blatant disregard for actually supporting the developer and just saying "well, i dont really use it, so im not going to pay for the part i do use" is disrespectful and you are stealing from the person who provided the original genuine product.

Equating copyright infringement with theft does nothing to advance your (reasonable) position of wanting to support developers; it only exacerbates the problem by making your position seem unreasonable.

IMO, it is not a black and white issue; I support limited copyright and patent protection, but IMO the current state of things is insane and unsustainable.

Copyright/patents are a STATUTORY monopoly, and nothing is more destructive and corrosive to competition than monopoly.

Having a natural monopoly is bad enough; unilaterally applauding unlimited government enforced monopoly is beyond silly.

- Judge John T. Noonan, to lawyer Russell Frackman, MGM vs. Grokster, 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

Also, see http://nyet.org/ for a compendium of related quotes :)

i see you have spent some time thinking about this as well.  :)

I believe the key factor involved with the flood of clones or other types of licencing defeats for  software tools is the excessive cost to obtain genuine software. I cannot believe the actual cost of developing the applications useful for ECU tuning justify the very high prices these software products demand. If the pricing structure was aligned according to the affordability factor for the typical guy starting out in tuning with licensing costs for individual owner/enthusiasts associated with functionality tiers. Software tool applications  that are affordable for beginners, not just priced such that only established businesses can afford to acquire, would for the most part eliminate the  clones and licensing hacks, while increasing sales for software tool developers. If the pricing was more realistic, the market would determine the best tools with the best quality and practical  application features  vs purchase pricing being the focus of real competition in the market that does not exist now. The only justification for the excessively high pricing of most software applications tools, is to limit the availability to a select few, with the per license profit margin supported by low volume sales. The widespread existence of clones and license hacks is the fault of software developers demanding excessive prices, distorting the price/demand open market rules, IMO.

^^^^^
100%

I'm all in support, if they actually made it available for us to purchase and not hoard it.. ie: Volvo me7 shit.