NefMoto

Alright guys, my previous post was about my GIAC tuned ECU. I want to start fresh with a stock tune. I want to verify that using the tune labeled “551M Hitachi.bin” located in the Nefmoto Community project 2.7T stage 1 post would be correct and a good place to start.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6695.30

I plan on using the XDF file located in the same thread labeled “Nefmoto Stage1.xdf” to start.  I looked for a more advanced one but to no avail. Id like to be able to adjust all of the parameters but have them all labeled as in the stage 1, but I cant seem to find the right xdf file. Ive also read in the comments section of this xdf file that if I want to go past 14.5 psi of boost then ill need to use the Nefmoto stage 2.xdf which I couldn’t find.

My current setup is completely stock on which I plan on building a separate engine and dropping it in come the end of the winter. My car is a 2001.5 Audi S4 ECU 8D0 907 551 T. Which ive read is compatible with AA ECU’s. I have read alot of the community 2.7t stage 1 thread and it all seems to click so far.

My questions-
Does anyone have the Nefmoto stage 2.xdf file?
Can I really not set my boost past 14.5 psi with the stage 1.xdf file?
Once I flash to the file labeled “551M Hitachi.bin” does my car become an M-box and no longer a T-box?

Thanks for all the help. Sorry if this is kind of jumbled…

There aren't separate xdfs, that would make no sense. M box is Mbox.

See my sig for useful information.

I have looked at those links multiple times. Ill keep looking at them! :) Ok tho so how come this xdf file only shows these parameters...
(http://i63.tinypic.com/34dlt7b.png)
I have looked at the one called "8D0907551M-20130729" and lots more parameters appear?

I just want to be sure that if i flash my T-box with an M-box ECU file it will work perfectly.

Thanks nyet!

I think he meant a futher defined xdf. its not that you cant set the boost higher its that without
other mods there is not more gains. I looked real quik did not find any, but nyet has really good mbox defs on his
site.

Right. I did download nyets but I like DDillengers better because I can easily know what the variables are without hovering over them. I really should use nyets tho because that way ill learn the variable names.. any how I found out one more thing.

I still am trying to see if I can just upload the file I mentioned above to my car and start it as a base tune… Anyone help me out with this?

I did notice that if I ran the me7check and me7sum on my giac tune it said in the beginning the following.
     
-   ‘0261207452’   (SSECUHN)
-   ‘1037362558’  (SSECUSN)
-   ‘8D0907551T’  (VAG part number)
-   ‘0003’  (VAG sw number)

I know your not supposed to trust the me7check and sum on tuned files from companies because itll miss things, however I wanted to find the software level???

The new file that I want to use 551M Hitachi.bin said the following

-   ‘0261207143’   (SSECUHN)
-   ‘1037360857’  (SSECUSN)
-   ‘8D0907551M’  (VAG part number)
-   ‘0002’  (VAG sw number)

So all in all the new tune I want to use has a different SSECUHN, SSECUSN, VAG part number, VAG sw number.

Am I still ok to use this ECU file? I checked and sum’d it and found no errors.

Thanks for all the input!!

Yes, M and T are interchangeable

Thanks everyone! Ok so before i start tuning and logging ive been trying to understand...

How come the requested boost cant look like this?(Green line below) Why does it have to taper off??
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2wp1qvc.jpg)

This is from the community 2.7t stage 1 thread. Ive asked multiple people from work and the answers were the following.

1. Not sure.
2. you have to drop off requested boost near redline because egt will get too hot and you'll burn valves
3. The green line is what you want it to look like, its just impossible to get it like that unless you have a perfect setup.

What is the real correct answer??? Im trying to write my own tune but want to understand everything first..

1) take a look at the k03 compressor map
2) injectors

Might want to hold off on tuning until you understand turbo fundamentals...

Ok ive learned alot from reading the following:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1782738

Ive also created an excel to calculate everything for me so I can do some plotting and create the optimal boost curve(which im sure you guys have already done, but I want to learn) Ill update everyone in a little while.

I also totally understand the injector thing. On stock injectors running at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm is 1/3 the fuel of 14.5 psi at 7500rpm(not achievable but just as a reference). Id have to log duty cycle and see what it is at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm. Probably somewhere in the 80 percent range. Hence the decrease in boost after.

I feel like im at the tip of the iceberg but nonetheless starting to understand!

Ok guys so ive been researching and talking to more people... Heres what i came up with.

For the stock K03 Turbo, here is pretty much the max boost you can run with supporting mods? This would be considered a reasonably safe tune. Nyet if you could verify?

(http://i66.tinypic.com/whimiw.png)

Note* The column labeled "CFM per Turbo" has an incorrect name. It should be Meters/sec of air per turbo.

That still to much boost to make peak power on a K03. peak should be 17.5ish maybe 18 IMO.
But thats for my area i understand it different everywhere we are basiclly at sealevel and have 93 octane.
I dont even run that much normally to be honest its more for people that like to see the boost gauge move.

You're neglecting pressure drop over IC - you're way high, not to mention over the MAP limit.

This is supposed to be requested boost. I definitely agree that it would be less actual after the pressure losses. This is with all supporting mods tho. So that would have an upgraded MAP? Looks possible tho correct? I can see actual boost being alot less as Carsinc stated.

No, req is req after losses (at the throttle body inlet, or, if we weren't using the misnomer "MAP", the actual MAP, which is in the intake manifold, downstream of the throttle body). That is because the PID works on the difference between req and actual (measured at the tb inlet).

P/R supported by the turbo is before losses (at the turbo compressor outlet), which is nowhere near the pressure sensor.

Even worse, you're also neglecting intake losses from ambient to the turbo compressor inlet, which makes the P/R you're basing your req boost even further off.

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Compressor_map

No. You don't need an upgraded MAP because the turbo will never get that high. And if you did, you'll hit the hardcoded (in the ECU) MAP limit, which requires the ASM 5120 hack, which is definitely beyond your ability right now


No


No. Actual boost should not deviate from request, except during spool.

You completely misunderstood how the boost PID works, what P/R is, etc.

One more, and it would have been red no.5

I think nyet is telling me that maybe I shouldn't be a tuner...

Not at all. :) Keep getting stuck in, you'll get it!

No man its all good ,a lot will learn from what you asking

Alright guys ive got another run at this, probably get a few more Nos but that’s alright. So Ive looked at this website:
http://www.vaglinks.com/Docs/Audi/B5/S4/AweTuning_2.7T_Intercooler_Everything.pdf
Its super cool, shows the difference between RSW, AWE, and Stock Intercoolers. It shows the pressure drops and temperature drops across the rev range.
Ive also looked at this website, as you recommended:
http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Compressor_map
Ive used the 1st link to create part of my excel table showing the pressure losses for the stock IC’s.
Ive also looked on line and in my current location Buffalo MN area it is 900 ft above sea so the pressure is 14.18 calculated on a 65-degree day.
I then calculated my boost from my pressure ratio, that I had collected from my compressor map(90% of the surge limit to 90% of the choke limit). This percentage can be increased but only experience can tell how close to get to the surge/choke limits. I used the calculation on the s4 wiki page for this btw with Pboost = PR(Pambient-PICdrop)-Pambient-Pinlet(used 1 for this).
(http://i65.tinypic.com/sqqqe0.png)
My only question with this is that my requested boost line without losses drops down to just over 10 psi at redline, and my requested boost after losses line drops down to 6 psi. From what I have read on the forums, people can hold anywhere up to 16 at redline??? I have not verified this information from a viable source.. This might be possible if I ran the requested boost closer to the Choke limit of the 03?
I’ve also researched that our MAP limit is at 22.5 PSI. Some Say 22 PSI. This Boost curve maxes out at just over 22 psi so itd have to be dialed back just a bit.
I also think I have a fair understanding of PID. I have read about it on the web and wiki, even before I got chewed out by nyet. The best way to explain the PID is to point to a graph that is ever increasing and decreasing. Now imagine a second graph that is a chasing it just like that 2-D helicopter game we used to play as kids. PID controls the second graph(actual boost) to increase a lot, or a little based on what direction the front graph is going(requested boost).
What ive also learned from this is that our stock intercoolers are very restrictive. And cant flow near as much air as we would all like(infinite )
Also lastly a note for nyet, I do greatly appreciate your input, and want to hear it! However just as an FYI, I am a mechanical engineer that has worked in testing and calibration and now I’m onto engine design(My heart still is in calibration and testing but this is where the world led me). Anyways please do not be so quick to judge as I do have a relative idea of what is going on, just missing a few pieces. Thanks!

Set your load to spike at 204 and taper to 155 by redline and you will be good. You should spike 20psi and tapper to 13psi. Keep an eye on your WGDC and if your maxing it out at 95% your turbos can't keep up or you have a boost leak and the pid is trying to compensate. Also watch your CF's and injector duty cycle.

Thanks! ill give it a shot. Maybe ill be able to post a few logs tonight.

Alright... Long delay. Here is some data i took today.


Heres a 1st and 2nd gear pull. Doesnt look that bad peaking at 16ish psi
(http://i67.tinypic.com/339njtx.png)


1st gear pull.. Why did actual boost scream way past requested?
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2eatemp.png)

Look at this lag time...
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2mg0cp2.png)


Im thinking i have a pretty crappy Tune. Apparently it was originally tuned by GIAC, not for sure though. Any thoughts suggestions? Just wondering what people think of the current tune.

Somehow the text got mixed up sorry guys. You still get what i mean though.

Please use ME7L and ECUXPlot.

Sub'ed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nahh, Nyet is like that to everyone, just think of his crankiness as an endearing trait  ;)

you're definitely on the right track and your approach is very methodical, trust me, I've seen a million and one noobs come though here and most of their questions are phased like so: "hey i need help w XXX ecu anyone know how to toon?"

The fact that you've taken Nyet's advice and posted a response that made some sense means you're serious. So stick with it and welcome to the forums :)

Thanks for the encouragement guys! Ok so currently i dont have an issue ECUXplot, But i am having an issue with Me7Logger. I cant seem to get it to register the correct drivers? I think? here is what happens when i try to run Me7 logger. I have already created my template file and a file for what is commonly logged ect. Created the ecu file ect. 

-> Reading log config file C:\Users\alm\Desktop\Cool Stuff\Austins Autos\Persona
l Autos\01 S4\Nefmoto\Software Shortcuts\Me7 Logger\ME7Logger_DIST_10072013_v1.2
0\logs\Commonly Logged.cfg .... done
-> Reading ecu characteristics file C:\Users\alm\Desktop\Cool Stuff\Austins Auto
s\Personal Autos\01 S4\Nefmoto\Software Shortcuts\Me7 Logger\ME7Logger_DIST_1007
2013_v1.20\ecus\AustinsOriginalECUfileGIAC.ecu .... done
Used Ecu definition is:
[Communication]
Connect      = SLOW-0x11
Communicate  = HM0
LogSpeed     = 56000

[Identification]
HWNumber           = "0261207452"
SWNumber           = "1037362558"
PartNumber         = "8D0907551T"
SWVersion          = "0003"
EngineId           = "2.7l V6/5VT"

Logged data size is 70 bytes.
Really logged are 38 entries with 70 bytes.
can't load library ftd2xx.dll
Initialization failed, exiting ...
exiting (cause=0x1)...

C:\Users\alm\Desktop\Cool Stuff\Austins Autos\Personal Autos\01 S4\Nefmoto\Softw
are Shortcuts\Me7 Logger\ME7Logger_DIST_10072013_v1.20>

 I have read through the Me7Logger threads and it==they seem to lead me to the conclusion that my drivers are not setup correctly and that i need to update drivers with the driver located here:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/usb/virtual-com-port.html

However when i find the drivers manually and direct it to that location, it states that the most up to date drivers are installed. Kinda confused... Ive done alot of reading but not sure where to go next. it seems like id be able to get past this point even if i wasnt hooked up to the vehicle(id think itd get to a point and say no connection.). Trying to get this figured out while im at work, any ideas?

The above was shortened because Nefmoto wont let me post the variables im trying to log. Oh well at least everyone can see the issue.

When I try to leave in the variables logged i get this error:

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@nefariousmotorsports.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Apache/2.2.31 (Amazon) Server at nefariousmotorsports.com Port 80

That's a windows driver installation issue; there are various ways to force windows to install the drivers that you want; unfortunately it depends on which version of windows etc. you are using.

I don't really have the patience to walk through the exact sequence and post it up.

Not sure how ME7Logger is generating that error :/

Sorry for the confusion, this was in regards to me posting the entire failure log on this website. Ok ill look into trying to update the driver manually more.

Thanks!

Yea i've seen that error off and on too when trying to post.. not sure why. I cleared a few cookies, logged out, logged back in, and they were ok.

Alright Everybody!! Got Everything working!! So a few logs i took are below. If you dont mind giving your input.. :) Itd be appreciated!

Im confused, when looking at this graph it shows where the boost drops and then picks back up again. This is definitely a feel able effect.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/ir5jsh.png)



I also logged ignition retard to see if it was pulling timing.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/313pwug.png)

Anybody have any thoughts or ideas? Or is the current tune just a crappy tune?

RPM is X axis. :)

this x1000, also post the original CSV or we won't be able to diagnose anything because we can't see anything other than the vars you graphed :)

Ok ive reposted with RPM as x-axis, and attached the file. Cant seem to figure out why boost drops and then pics back up?

Boost drop and then pics back up
(http://i68.tinypic.com/1179q14.png)

Is IGN timing being pulled as well?
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2a7inwz.png)

Boost with WG - Just interesting, shows that the wastegate isnt all the way closed. Can obviously run more boost, not without consequences of course.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/14sfki0.png)

And as a note to anyone who looks at the CSV file.. I apologize in advance as I was taking data with a zillion different variables recording.

Thanks Everybody!!

Way too much knock, you've smashed into EGT and flatlined fuel; temperature sensor/thermostat is dead, running barely any timing as a result.

Thanks for the input Adam! I really do want to learn from all of you on here. However just as an FYI, I havent tuned the car at all, its currently how i bought it. I should obviously flash a stock file for now and restart?

For reference:
Way too much knock: Are you looking at Knock voltages? If so what values are normal for this engine? O? Or are you looking at how much its pulling timing and the knock values? If
EGT: I see that if i graph EGT it looks like its pretty standard at 630 ish and spikes to over 800, obviously late timing can cause this because lots of energy is going into the exhaust as opposed to pushing the piston down. What should i see for EGT values?
And i definitly need a new thermostat... it runs a tick under half almost all the time. I hear the job is a pain.. but none the less, it needs to be done. In your opinion is it impossible to tune without having a 100 percent working thermostat?

It's impossible to tune properly if the engine isn't up to temp, because everything varies around coolant temperature.

Yes, looking at timing pull.  7 degrees is way too much.  I fuel using BTS, so I've set TABS to 400 degrees so it's always active, and tuned using that.  Yours just hits the threshold and dumps fuel, which isn't good.

If you want to learn, flash a stock file, read the Stage 1 documentation and go from there. :) It'll take you a few hours of reading to get to where you currently are boost wise, but with better fuel and timing IMO.

Ok. So what i understand so far. I need to install my UEGO ASAP. :) As well as do a timing belt and Thermostat(might as well do a T-belt and water pump even though im only at 138k).

Do your tunes ever pull timing? Or do you tune so it pulls timing close to 1 degree and then back it off so it doesnt ever pull it? And from what ive read, so tune fueling so that my EGT temps stay down below the point were the car throws in extra fuel(BTS).

I have read quite a bit of the stage 1 commmunity tune, its actually quite interesting and very informational even though its like 40 some pages long.

Next Step: Replace Timing belt and water pump and thermostat. This will pry be a week or two. Ill report back then!

Thanks for the help!

Today im picking up a Timing Belt, Water pump, idler pulleys ect and thermostat. However I did want to mention one thing.

I got my boost gauge installed a few days ago and working. I have been paying attention to it now that i know the engine is "knocking" under high load. I am able to watch the peak boost hit 18 psi sometimes and then i feel the knock, and then the boost gauge immediately drops down to 14 ish. I got to thinking about everything and I decided to find a spot where i could put 93 Octane fuel in the S4(normally i run 91 because thats all thats available around me on my daily commute to work). The knock in decreased significantly. I am going to put some new spark plugs in as well as the thermostat ect, and hopefully most of my problem will be solved, although i still want to tune it myself. :)