NefMoto

Hello  ;)
first i want to adjust boost to 1 Bar.

it is the AEB engine, throttlebody by cable.
already mounted is a k04 turbo.

can someone explain how this ecu works.
this ecu has no map sensor.

for the maps i think i have all necessary to start.

- also mounted, wideband innovate and EGT gauge digital.

logs with ori soft:
boost 0,4 Bar
lambda 0,90
EGT 880°C

all hints are welcome.

thanks

Nice - first post and too many questions :-D

First is other than need to adjust to 1 bar ;-)

MAP sensor isn't important for good tune ;-)

Do you have basic knowledge about remapping? M3.8.2 is some difficult ...

But if you have WB so let's play with that :)

now just one question:
where is the injector constant?


07720 ?
076F8 ?
076EE ?

I have not seen any docs on Me3.8.2, but I am very amateur at this, have you seen this OLS file?

 http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,725.0title,.html

May help to locate maps, I haven't had time to load up your bin, so I'm just throwing this out. Hope it helps.

thanks, but i have this ols file.
how is the right name for that injector constant that i must search for?

I think maybe FKTU, but without proper docs I don't really know. In the OLS file there is FKTU.0/FKTU.1, so I'm really not sure why 2, but both maps have the same value. In your file 76DC and 76EA seem to be correct addresses.... if in fact that is constant. ******I'm not a professional, just throwing out ideas****** Maybe someone with experience tuning constant in earlier Me can verify...

thank you for trying to help  ;)

there are many constans, i need the correct name.
i hope someone will help.

You need KHFM, it converts airflow in kg/h into pulsewidth in ms.

You use stock injectors? i think they are very small injectors on the AEB motor stock

How good is your german  ? if you use the searchfunction, you will find a .ols project
with ALL important functions defined..   in german.
Tho people posted the file as M3.8.3 file..  which it wasn't. But still very helpfull for
converting 80% to M3.8.3. (flashable younger brother of M3.8.2)

Injector constant is Grundanpassungskonstante, tune it using the physical formula.
You know the stock injector flow and fuel pressure, after you fit the new injectors (and/or FPR), recalculate the flow and adjust the constant. It is linear.
Don't forget to adjust injector lag time.

You will need a VR6 MAF, take the linearization maps from a VR6 ECU and copy paste.

The boost is controlled according to MAF. It does not have MAP sensor feedback, instead the "pressure" table is really a target load table. It still has N75 duty map and limitations.

Was wondering...   "already mounted is a k04 turbo"  there are 2-3 versions to choose from.
Would be nice to know which one it is, you have....  pictures (of tagplate) ?

Could you explain please us Grundanpassungskonstante calculation physical formula ?

Regards,

K04-15

He meant K04-015, K04-020? I know there's different ones that fit. Should be on the data plate.

Edit: I must be seeing things, it says K04-15 in the post above^^ :P

Grundanpassungskonstante would be re-calculated as a linear mult.

Original injectors are 210cc @ 3 bar, fuel pressure is 4 bar.
If you fit 440cc @ 3 bar injectors with 4 bar, then grundanpassungskonstante will be (210/440)*128 = 61.

If you change fuel pressure as well, you will have to take it in account before re-calculating.
As I said before, remember to adjust latency and minimum injection time.

Good information, Thank you.

I have a question about that. if we have a 440cc @ 3 bar injectors and we have a 3 bar fuel pressure. How can we calculate it ?

And

what's the latency and minimum injection time germany name ? or if you can tell me map name or start address i'll be happy.
Thank you for your explain...

Regards.

@ prj :

Can you tell me which screenshot applies to your calculation ? I get the feeling that screenshot nr. 1 is the correct one...

Thanks.

Yea, it's nr1.
Second one is for maf.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I already had the idea that there was a mix-up ;)

Cheers,

PvL

can anyone upload a stock bin from a vr6 motor? or just the 256map for the bigger maf? Also do you know witch bosch part numbers for vr6 maf can be used in this ecu? I would very appriciate this. Thank you.

Giannis: Here we go;

Bosch/vw numbers for the maf :

0280217504 - 021906462
0280217512 - 021906462A
0986280203 - 021906462A / 021906462AX

I did some research on the vr6 software that works with this maf (m3.8.1 euro VR6'es & M5.9 usa VR6'es) and the maf-map in the
software is identical. But ofcourse there is a difference with the 1.8T callibrated maf-map. Picture shows both vr6 locations in the
software.

I'll also include a damos from the euro-file, and a tuned usa file so you can do some homework on that.

I also want to put this maf on my car, and upgrade the turbocharger to a K04-022.  If anyone has extra info on this matter, do chime-in please.

thanks,

PvL

Thank you so much for this pvl. I am still gathering hardware for this car. I am planning to tune it with a td04 turbo and ev14 injectors fmic of course and 2.5inch exhaust i will post any progress if you like. Thanks again.

@ PRJ / Nokiafix /other forum-members who have proper knowledge/experiënce with this :

"You will need a VR6 MAF, take the linearization maps from a VR6 ECU and copy paste" -> are the VR6-files i've posted, the ones you mean
to copy the maf-map out ? as they are properly different if compared to a AEB or AGU ecu-map... Can you give me a extra hint or
example-file/screenshot ?

How to properly set the MAF up? : swap to VR6 housing + 1.8T stock 150bhp sensor? Or keep the VR6 sensor in the VR6-housing ?

Thanks,

PvL

It a ball braker to scale/graft a 2.75" or bigger maf into the m3.8 AGU code, I have tried 100s of combintaions over the last 7 year, from adding X% to the full maf scale, copy and past oem maps, interpolating % scale like -7% to +32% ect...  All my methods and trick have worked and kept me and my customers happy.

BUT...  The truth is the best way and the best results come from off setting the map, fitting bigger injectors and basing the maf size on the same or simlar % increase, you will need to set minTE and start injection to set a base line then the tweak the 16x16 lambda at part load as a whole % based on fuel trims.  But now you have load maps wrong and timing load axis out of sync,  all you need to do is write a new timing advance map from data based on VCDS logs and det cans. Then last tune the 9x16 LDR load maps as you would at any other stage of tune to get a base line map.  Once you got your basic fuel map done, timing and load you just need to fine tune fuel via Lambdakennfeld bei Teillast and timing advance maps.

By going from a stock maf to 2.75" with unscaled MAF Linearisierung the timing will end up around 5* to 7* advanced.

Nick


Maybe not the correct way in theory, but it works 100% and produces much smoother results. I have tuned this way From k03s 310cc 240bhp/ K04 hybrid 330bhp 440cc/ to T304E Stage3 630cc 430bhp.

Missed a bit cannot edit above post.. :(  lol


When tuning m3.8 at any stage its best to use a known working OEM maf sensor in a bigger housing.  I have been caught out in the past trying to scale and set fuel/load and timing on a 12 year old Vr6 maf which a customer supplied..... which was a naff as Top Gear last night .  That week I ripped all my hair out... :-[

Hi Nick,

thanks for your supurb reply ! Really helpfull and most interesting to read. Thanks !!!

Damn, it takes a LOT of efford getting these done i see :( :(

Without a rolling-road & widebandlambda,  it takes proper time to realign all maps.....


PvL

Just a lot of logging and in most case I keep all load axis stock and edit the maps. 
 
The best way to start would be fit MAF and injectors set TVUB based on Bosch data sheet and reduce min start injection 1x1s. This is enough to get the car starting hot and cold without soiling your spark plugs/flooding engine. Then work on part throttle map as a whole % rescale to get your idle fuel trims about right. With n75 unplugged drive car on light load logging via VDCS and edit points on part load lambda map unti you get close on to the fuel stratergy you after.   Reduce timing maps over 2000rpm by around 5*. 

 Then run car with the stock N75 and load maps and log to get a picture of whats going on and make sure the ecu has control of the base line boost and its safe.  Then start by tuning the LDR map as a whole % you might have to take out some midrange load ms to make the power linear for the bigger turbo as the k03 maps as for max load around 3200rpm then tails off.  Set you self a basic torque curve at lowest boost u can get (hard without dyno) but on the road just set it based on boost gauge reading and blocks 025 via vcds.

 Once you got torque curve/boost profile contolled how you want as basic power then the LDR maps become very easy to alter/tune for final power.     Now is just a matter log winding the timing up and logging load,  actual timing and timing corrections to get a base maps which is safe and controlled.

Now its just the case of adding small % gains to the LDR maps and working up in load to target torque curve., while logging and making corrections to lambda and timing maps which will relate to actual load ms logs.

It takes a lot of time to get right, I tend to spend a 2-3hours a day over a week to do a big turbo map for an AGU, I always start from scratch using a stock factory map.   I aint the best person to explain things so I hope you can get your head around it.

Nick

Could someone check adress in 018cg.bin for Grundanpassungskonstante - 06A37 right ? 

Yes.

when i change the "Grundanpassungsfaktor 0" (0x7507) from 1 to 0,47... (New Injectros 470cc), which other changes require?

How can i finde "adjust latency" and "minimum injection time" ??

And what is the "Spannungskorrektur" (0x9563)?

Is some kind of KFLDHBN, or similar compressor performance map map in M3.8.x  ?

Of course not, the ECU has no idea about pressure ratio or boost.

It has factors based on beta testing though , right ? And these factors allow the higher boost levels when high load is requested ?

Am I on the right track ? I know which map it is , just not sure how to correctly label it . The ecu does have an altitude sensor tho

You can run boost as high as you want... no "1,55Bar MAP limitation"...

altitude sensor just correct load to keep power constant.

Do you realize this ECU does not have the notion of boost at all?
It works purely based on MAF and LOAD.

It just requests load and controls N75 to reach target and that's it. There is no "boost" in this ECU.

Sorry .. It was late and i minced my words. Yes , I understand that it has no concept of boost at all . It uses airflow and rpm (amongst others) to calculate load

to dig this one up, and excuse me for my lack of knowledge.
Does this mean you cannot take a maf scale map from a vr6 and paste it into the m3.8 ecu?.

That won't work, at least I've always needed to tune this regardless.
Plus, if you are running enough power to max out the stock MAF most likely you are going to hit 255 load, which means you will need to underscale anyway.

There is a max airflow Vs Rpm map however, this needs to be raised for aggressive stage 1 tuning.

I dont know what its called or where it is but I had Tapp add it to his Maestro 7 AEB maps as i was hitting limp for exceed Maf airflow (At 3-4000 rpm when the k03 is blowing hardest)

When I scale (using maestro 7) for the VR6 maf I just take my known logged maf readings for stock maf (At idle, max load and max rpm/ or the Maf limit 186g/sec) and re-scale with trial and error using start and end percentages to get the same g/sec in the new maf housing (with stock sensor)

Is the maf Map scaled to kg/Hr? if so I could give you some points to plot what I have scaled in Maestro 7. But thinking that you cant just plot the values between maps?

Don't remeber the actual fuction/map-name but it is referred to as "ML-Schwelle für B_maxflr-Diagnose HFM/HLM" and one
reason for it I guess is to have a safety function when for instance the hose to the wastegate actuator falls off :-)

It's quite easy to spot just by visual apperance and is 6x6 if I remember correctly and if my memory serves me well it's
flow vs rpm and plate angle.




In this file, it's an 8 bit, 6x6 located at 8760.

hello guys!

dusting this discussion.

I currently have my AGU with k04-022 and saab red injectors, 350cc.

to adapt everything I need to change the following curves right?

Grundanpassungsfaktor 0
Linearisierung der Heißfilmspannung

you can kindly help me?

thank you in advance.

the first one yes the second no. And you must change some other maps too :)

thanks for the reply.

what would be the other to change?

everything related to boost maps some ignition maps and some fuel tuning. Otherwise i see no reason to change into bigger turbo and injectors.  ;)

Please help with Octavia 1.8T AGU with big turbo from Subaru 2.5 .
When MAF readings goes to 160g/s  - ECU close N75, and like limp mode, total loss power, but without DTC, or 00575 - Intake Manifold Pressure   11-10 - Control Limit Not Reached -
I raise KFMLDMX  ML-Schwelle fur B_maxflr-Diagnose HFM/HLM  6x6 map, but it not help at all. Maybe is some other MAF limitter ?
RPM   load    inj.time      MAF
2640   5.5   10.75           46.87
2880   5.95   13.31    54.72
3120   6.3   14.34         62.64
3400   6.8   15.74           73.06
3640   7.45   16.32           86.67
3920   8.15   16.32           102.22
4240   8.75   16.32    118.06
4560   9.1   16.32           131.87
4920   9.35   16.32           145.9
5200   9.3   16.32           154.86
5520   9.05   16.32           159.17
5520   1.65   2.5           29.65
5200   1.3   2.3           21.11

What MAF unit are you using and what sensor voltage are you seeing at that stage?

MAF sensor is oryginal in oryginal housing. I don't measure voltage for now.
In MAF linearisation map last value is 673kg/h is about 187 g/s,  and if the voltage exceeds the threshold, would appear DTC with sensor voltage to high, but I haven't any MAF related DTC, and car start run OK after drop throttle pedal and full throttle again.

what about max VE?

What do you mean VE ?

VE , load
Theres a table in there somewhere that will limit load vs RPM

IF you mean LDR-Sollwertbegrenzung 16x1 , I change it, but no luck.
Must be MAF 160g/s related I think.

Please give any hint  ???.

First of all set
Drehzahlschwelle für Dia LDR - Regelabweichung = 6500rpm

Then you can tune your Boost, after you tuned your boost you must adjust this value to best point.

WDKDLDI has nothing to do with this behavior, never touch this and never have similar issues

160g/s are less than MAF max Readings (190g/s), DTC says ECU is unable to reach the specified load... or you spec too high loads that can´t be achieved or there is a leak or MAF problem.

log the N75DC...is it´s near 100% before cuts than you will have to look for leakings or your MAF is defective.

I had a similar behavior with a defective barometric sensor too, but it was erratic

Almost forget...You raised KFLUL ?

Thanks for advices, will try it.
Tried to change MAF, but it not help at all.
And yes,KFLUL is raised to 12.75
Will try to rebuild KFLDS to request less load till 4000rpm, and more only on high RPM where turbo have spooled good and requested load is near real.
And will try to change Drehzahlschwelle für Dia LDR - Regelabweichung = 6500rpm

One more question. Looking at one of the AGU big-turbo files, I found changed map called in Damos: Kennfeld tastverhältnisersatzwert für LDR 9x16 , is filled with 5.08% in oryginal, and was changed to 55%. It have some relation to load, but for what ?

Update.
I change Drehzahlschwelle für Dia LDR - Regelabweichung = 6500rpm, rebuild KFLDS to request less load and something still cut boost. Now no DTC stored.
 Think is mechanical issue, maybe WG is not OK, or N75 from VAG can't  fast regulate Subaru wastegate .
RPM   load    MAF          N75
3480   6.35   68.82          99.6
3920   8.1   101.18        99.6
4520   9.5   137.36        98.4
5360   9.65   164.31        99.6
5240   0.9   32.5           0

Not sure what your wastegate actuator pressure is, not familiar with 1.8T's, but I would assume you should get at least a few PSI even if the control valve is fully open, right? 

From your load number dropping down to 0.9, it seems more like you're hitting an injection cut.  Not sure about M3.8, but M4.4, which isn't terribly different and I'm quite familiar with, will cut off injection if you cross the overload values defined in TLULN.  The M3.8 DAMOS earlier in the thread, for a VR6, has an interesting map:

KFLUL, {Lastschwelle für Turbo-Überladeabschneiden}
  -- translates --
KFLUL, {load threshold for turbo overcharge cutting}

Looks like there's a second:
KFLUL2,{Lastschwelle 2 für Turbo-Überladeabschneiden}

My guess would be when load exceeds the value in these maps (unsure why there's 2) it cuts fuel.

Kennfeld tastverhältnis ersatzwert translates to "duty cycle replacement value map".  Usually replacement value maps are used in error conditions.  I doubt it will do you much good.  The tuner of this file may have used it to allow the duty cycle to stay high even in error, instead of setting conditions properly to avoid the error completely.

Curious.. Anyone know what CPU M3.8.2 uses? 

can you show a log with TB, LOAD, INJ, MAF and  N75?
earlier log you uploaded showed fuel cut but you said N75 limp, which one is it? or is it both?

Here log
(http://i022.radikal.ru/1308/5d/a55ae97448c7.png) (http://radikal.ru/fp/45704a4dce9347feb1afa0a04db012db)

Mechanics check turbo and wastegate, looks like it not mechanic issue. Maybe bigger injectors needed for this setup ?

Have you found the "load threshold for turbo overcharge cutoff" table?  Looking at SW358127 from an Audi A3 1.8T M382, the load thresholds look suspiciously close to what you're hitting.  You seem to cut just past 5500RPM, when the threshold goes down.  See the following link for example tables, yours may or may not be at the same address or have the same values.  If you can't find these tables, post your binary and I'll try.  May or may not be able to, but I'll take the challenge either way :)

(this is from file with signature D014B0907557B  1.8L R4/5VT MOTR    D020261204806103735812755/1/M3.82/05/400700/DAMOS30N/30N03-S/30N0302-S/170997)
http://i.imgur.com/cIWbatO.jpg

This maps (KFLUL.0 and KFLUL.1) was raised to max 12.75 value in first attempt, and also KFMLDMX  was upped but it not help  :'(

Ah, my bad, I see you indicated that a few posts back, sorry.

The only remaining parameters I see that might be worth toying with:
TATMSA Abgastemperatur bei Schubabschneiden -- Exhaust gas temperature for fuel cut
TLKLN    tL - Klopfschutzschwelle -- tL Knock protection threshold

The first, I'm not very sure about.  Some of the Motronic ECUs use a temperature model to compute theoretical exhaust temperature.  If you reached a condition where it thought the temp exceeded the limit for fuel cut, this may have something to do with your problem?  It could also have to do with EGR -- Not sure if these cars have an EGR temperature sensor, it may relate to that instead of computed EGT.

The second is a load limit when knocking is active.  It's possible you are knocking and due to this the ECU is trying to reduce load.  Long shot, though.

Also, I notice your injection time flatlines at 16.32 in your data log output?  I hope that's just an artifact of some invalid logging and not a reflection of actual injection time?

I assume you found valid data in the KFLUL maps before altering them, such that you are sure the address isn't different in your specific binary, correct?  I've been bit by this before!

... Just some ideas :)

Thanks for interest and helping.
Yes, I'm 100% sure I found correct KFLUL maps. And I logged knocking, and there was no knocking, must be something else.
I'm interesting to about flat injectors opening time from load 7ms and till cut. There for I ask maybe bigger injectors will be salvation ?

Cheers :)

Well, I'm not sure why it'd max out at 16ms.  Maybe there's a maximum injection time I'm not familiar with?  16ms seems pretty short as a limit.  Wonder if there's a map that's correlating load or MAF to injection time?  Still pawing over M3.8, mainly for fun, I don't even own one of these cars.  Never know, I like small displacement turbo motors, so.. curious :)

How big are the injectors?

From the info I have read and the logs that I have 16.32ms is a logging limit that ECU shows but not the max injection time that it is really applying. I don't know if anyone can confirm this or have more info about it.

Search this Maps
Lastschwelle für Turbo-Überladeabschneiden + 2
And check you are not running in the limiter.. :)

Friends a doubt:
I have seen many people talking about injectors & FPR scaling/adjustment for bigger/ different injectors/FPR in M38x/M592 using FGATO (Injection Correction Factor) and/or KHFM (Injector Constant), then please could elaborate the difference between both and/or how are related?
Thanks,

FGATO => fuel multiplier (you change the injetors flow to ECU)

KHFM => MAF multiplier (you change the g/s ECU think MAF are indicating)

I keep waiting for that "O SHIT" moment when earlier motronic makes sense.

It hasn't come yet.

If you analize it backwards (taking ME7 as an start point) you never get it.

Everything is much more simple as the ECU just wait for the incoming air, measure it and take apropriated actions... diferent from ME7 that before TBI even open ECU knows "exactly" how much air, TBI angle, fuel quantity, ignition angle, etc will take to reach torque required by drivers pedal position.

That's right but some documentation will be good. I only have pieces of info but not something from Bosch like the ME7 Function Document.

Never found anything about these old ECUs too, but if you understand some basics you can figured it out how it works...

I heard that before 1995 Bosch Keep everything that really matters in paper to avoid information leak.

Some update about Octavia AGU problem. It was mechanical issue with N75, now is OK.  MAF is changed to VR6 one.
(http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1510/9e/3c7380e99125.png) (http://radikal.ru/big/f778700e67f9409486571ce9caeb2177)

Did you rescale the MAF?

Yes.Maf is rescaled.

What is the goal when finetuning KFLDS?
There is specified load, corrected load, actual load and n75 duty in measurement block 25.

Am i able to lower the boost just by changing duty in KFLDTV or do it have to change Load and Duty simultanously?

Does this ECUs have underboost DTC?

Or better to say underboost diagnose, if does how is maps called?

Edit: I think I found them

Hey Guys,

i know this is a pretty old Topic - but i tried to do a Stage2 on my Car - it has a K04-15 Turbo on it.

When i apply the Map on my ECU the Charger pumps... i don't know where it could come from..

Maybe someone who has more experience can tell me where this Issue is located...

Did I do something wrong?

How about you make one post and actually include some logs. Stop spamming old threads with your bs.

okay sorry! so we go in the other thread ?:)

Sorry again for spamming but i dont know how to help myself anymore :D and i need that car haha