NefMoto

1.8t awp here. Plugs are OEM, OEM boost level, OEM turbo.

Plugs are running so hot, the tip of the platinum melted the fuck off. Logs attached. Part throttle only.

Why am I running so lean but not throwing a code?

omg I cannot, that log is to damn long.
Logs should be 2nd or 3rd gear 1500 to redline, not a 10 mile drive to buy pickles

Plugs are getting burnt up due to part throttle driving. If you have no interest in helping, no sense in posting.

Dude, I'm not being a dick and i do want to help I just doubt the plugs are being melted by part thottle driving.
I'm not sure why i did not see lean conditions in the logs or timing pull beside cyl 1.

There's nothing wrong with pickles errand logs. You can easily filter out all the useless info.


A brief glance at your log didn't reveal anything obviously wrong. AFRs are in check, knock is minimal. Boost PID needs work. Include ps_w next time as well please. Although I noticed that you started with relatively cold engine - and coolant temp keeps climbing till the end of the log. Does it actually stabilize at 90ish? It looked like so, but still I'd like a confirmation. Also, vfil_w is constantly zero all the time. Speed sensor inop?

Yeah, I couldn't see anything either.  Calculated EGT is low too.  What plugs are you using?  Likewise on coolant temp, does it stabilise? 

Nubcake - vfil will be 0 probably because 1.8t and cluster fuse pulled.

I posted this in another thread because they asked. This is the history on the situation.


Apologies for the sarcasm

Also, through that part driving stint, my EGT model reached 600 deg C. That's very hot for a trip to get pickles no?

Thanks nubcake


I'm still learning how to tune boost PID. I'm in the midst of studying it.
I will include ps_w next time.
I will look into an old log or take a new, longer log to confirm coolant temp stabilization. Coolant temps stabilize on the gauge but i haven't checked in the log yet.

vfil_w is very annoying and is related to something else that I can't figure out. I keep getting a code for 'vehicle speed sensor: implausible signal' so I replaced the sensor and am still getting it. I will be replacing the gear stalk that feeds the sensor and see if that solves it, otherwise I'm unsure why it's receiving an implausible signal.

Does vehicle speed get fed through the CAN/BUS system to the cluster and then to the ECU? If that's the case then pulling the cluster fuse would interupt that signal and cause the code for vehicle speed sensor implausible signal.

Yes, it comes from the cluster. Disregard that comment then.

(http://i.imgur.com/JD9gYMv.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/AFHPNa4.jpg)

Left: Non OEM label PR6Q
Right: OEM label PR6Q

Perhaps just the construction is different and the tips did not melt off, not sure. Could be a difference in where/how NGK gets its plugs manufactured. Regardless, the porcelain is a bit burnt and the rapidly expanding gap can't be ignored.

Bought PFR7S8EG plugs. a heat range higher. Hopefully they don't keep getting fucked up.

Torquing the spark plugs properly? I've seen plugs have issues/fail due to not being able to transfer combustion heat into the head.

Arghh. I am admittedly lazy about that. I usually just get a 3/8 drive socket wrench on it...i'll torque them properly

I would never mix spark plugs, they are not expensive so replace all at once. ok it gets a little more expensive with a V12  ;D
The copper ones BKR7E I use for 15.000km, and they cost 10€ per set. Then I bin them and put in new ones.

Considering your topic: How are your fuel trims? In your log I dont see any reason to expect that you are running lean. Unless you recalibrated the o2 sensor or something...

Fuel trims seem to hover around 1, at least well within the 10% range.
Yea I surmised that i'm not running lean from the logs.

I'll be replacing all 4 plugs with level 7 NGK's and torquing to appropriate spec. should do the trick hopefully.

Boost seems to go where it wants to in this screencap. WGDC seems to follow boost desired. Not quite sure how to tweak PIS to reign in the boost erratic behavior. Would this be P,I, or D?

What map would need to be tweaked?

Can you post a normal 3rd gear wot pull csv already?

no, because my turbocharger is not balanced correctly, sorry. I don't have issues with boost at WOT.

Any way you can help with just PT logs? I'm trying to do some learning and studying, not quite ready to tune the car yet.

Also, it's not listed anywhere that I can find:
what is ps_w and rl_w?

Including the FR and the s4wiki?

oops sorry, was looking at the wrong section

Why would you go to a hotter spark plug if the plugs are burning out ??? :o  You need to go to a colder plug  ;D A hotter plug is not the fix !

So my PID needs work. I'm still unsure how to interpret logs for PID problems, What do i look at, what variables do I log? Calc PID? I've been reading the s4 tuning wiki over and over and over and I still don't understand it, I've also watched an assortment of videos on PID control and none of those really got through to me. I'll have to rewatch them a few more times. I find myself to be good at math but without a live human to explain it to my face, I'm just not understanding it. The whole thing is confusing so I can't really pinpoint specific things to ask.
The 'I' in PID is the desired setpoint correct? The 'P' is the amount of overshoot and undershoot it takes to find the setpoint and the 'D' is what is responsible for learning patterns to reduce amount of over and undershoot to find the setpoint during fluctuating operation over time?

Is this a crazyman's explanation of PID? I def feel like I don't have the whole picture, let alone how to apply it to how ME7.5 functions. Does anyone have a suuuuuuper laymen's description of this stuff? Is PID only responsible for part throttle boost conditions? Is the PID only put to use by the n75 or is the throttle used to meet PID output also?

I did a WOT 3rd gear log the other day after restricting LDRXN to 7 PSI so It's less likely that I blow up my turbo. Fuel is still off when I thought I had it dialed in. It goes off course from desired AFR at high rpms and kind of sways around a bit before that. Not sure if BTS or AWKR is responsible as I am not fueling through LAMFA anymore.

I will post that when I get home. new log should have ps_w. I tried editting the config file to have more available title information but when I save and load into VisualME7Logger, It reverts to the old changes when I pull up the csv.

Stop what you are doing, it's a waste of time.
You need to make WOT logs. If you have a chinese turbo, that you are worried is going to blow up when you floor it, then LOL.

NGK - higher number = colder.

I did make a WOT log. I said i'd post that when i got home....
??

Turbo is genuine BW VW to my knowledge (came with the car when I bought it so I can only assume it's genuine, tag blue dye had been removed by oils, or solvents It was, come to think of it, it did raise some eyebrows as I think I looked for the KKK triangle and couldn't find one, can't be sure I looked hard enough though). I attempted to rebuild it as i was getting oil in the intake tract. When i opened it up i found a smooshed and hardened o-ring on the compressor side, i bought a rebuild kit with all the fixings and took it apart. As i did some research, i followed the instruction of "dont mark or dent a small turbo such as k03 to mark the balanced position as this can permanently throw off the balance due to the internal rotating components small size and would need to be professionally rebalanced and machined." I called like 6 places and none of them said they worked on turbos that small. So, i marked the turbo with whiteout the best i could and removed the nut, the mark got smeared a bit but not enough to completely lose my position. I got it back in place as close as i could and i can confidently say i got it really close but i can't 100% guarantee its where it should be.

So, i limited boost to 7 psi down from 11 (using LDRXN), took the risk and did the WOT log. I could buy a genuine BW VW turbo replacement but thats like $800+$100 for gaskets and nuts ans studs and all hardware and such and i already had intentions to upgrade my turbo, so i took the dive and bought the gt2860rs. Now i'm here. Now you know the story. I'm not sure if the turbo I have will blow up but I'm not financially or time prepared to replace it, with buying the turbo kit and all. (taking this turbo in and out is like a 40+ hour job for me with no help available) You can judge me for my decision but I think in the long run, it was what is best for the car.

How do ya'll take WOT logs in 3rd all the time?? Here in New England, finding a straight enough road that isn't a patrolled highway is like winning the lottery. Also, If you get caught going 100+ anywhere on public roads, you lose your car, your license and you spend a bunch of time in jail and a bunch of money to post bail. It's an automotive and career death sentence essentially. How do you get away with it? how do people do this relatively safely without getting caught???

I'll post the log when i get home.

Pic is turbo tag. Looks genuine to me aside from lack of blue paint/dye.

Like i said, this turbo came with the car when i bought it 110,000 miles ago.

Here's the WOT log in 3rd. Any idea whats going on with my fueling?

Any thoughts on my questions on PID?

No.


No


No

I have no idea where you are getting any of that from, since I can't find a single description of PIDs that says anything like any of the three.

I have no idea how to answer that. If you don't know what an integral or a derivative is, there is no way to answer that easily.

The wikipedia entry on PIDs is as good as it is going to get for you.


No, it is always active. Certainly you can see it doing something WOT, no?


Genearally n75, but the throttle will close (see also throttle cut, discussed in detail on the s4 wiki) if the PID detects a gross error (extended overshoot).


You can log both to find out but tabgm_w should pretty much answer that question for you.

If you are unable or uneilling to help, why are you posting a reply to my question?

what do you feel is wrong with fueling?  Actual lambda is lining up perfectly with requested until after 5,500rpm when it starts to go rich.

Are you concerned with the request?

took a look back at the log, my concern was more inexperienced confusion. I'm not used to interpreting logs.

It does seem that my fuel protocol is doing what it's supposed to do when ignition is retarded. Any thoughts on why I'm getting knock at such low levels of boost? My ignition angle is stock. Is this something that can occur from the factory at these points? I've taken logs before at higher boost with no ignition retard found.

What could be causing the fueling to go rich and stray from requested AFR past 5550 rpm?

Also I'm curious why WGDC is at 95% at beginning of spool up? Shouldn't it be 95% closer to max boost, maybe a bit before?

And why my throttle plate isn't open all the way during 100% pedal position...I am a noob and I have a lot of questions.

because actual boost < requested (KFLDIMX ya? )
throttle plate is ok
PID probably ok
tweak your LDRXN(zk) / KFLDHBN

if you doesnt know how to do it then read wiki, take a 180 or 225 file and see how they re doing it
you ask for help with the fueling without logs..  ::)
and post your LDRXN. just for lulz

just so I'm understanding this correctly: WGDC means n75 duty cycle? Opening of the solenoid means the actuator diaphragm valve is subjected to conditions taking place inside the pressure pipe downstream of the turbocharger. If WGDC % is high (95%) the actuator is more subject to these conditions than if it was low (10%) (because the n75 flutters on and off rapidly) but the wastegate cannot open until the turbocharger builds pressure enough to counteract the spring in the actuator. So it doesn't matter if the WGDC is 0 or 95 because the spring is holding the wastegate closed and allowing boost to build. (assuming turbine housing (hot side) pressure doesn't force it open)

K03s spring pressure is 6psi correct?

So, why place WGDC at 95% as soon as boost begins to build? Why not keep it at 0 until shortly before max boost and ramp it up to say 60% (settling % after max boost?) Whats the benefit of being at 95%?

The only obvious answer is a bad batch of gas, or unusually high IATs


I don't see that it is doing that


No, you want as much spring pressure holding the WG closed as possible during spool.


There is a map that does this to keep intake noise down at lower rpms. I don't recall the name off hand, I'd have to dig through the FR and/or one of my files.

It honestly doesn't seem to affect things much unless you are running a truly massive set of turbos, and even then, you've got enough lag that by the time the turbo is spooled, the throttle plate should be wide open.

You'd have to add yet more gain scheduling to the already complicated PID to accomplish this, for absolutely zero benefit.

do I have this backwards? Does 95% WGDC mean: the actuator sees LESS of the conditions inside the boost pressure pipe instead of MORE? when WGDC is 0% is the actuator always open to the pressure pipe?

....if the n75 fails open, that would mean more DC signal means it is closed more......correct?


thank you.

It's prob bad gas, IATs seem fine. Thanks.


Extracurricular thoughts: has anyone experimented with a double sided sealed actuator paired with a 4 port solenoid to open the wastegate under vacuum during non boost conditions for gas mileage and exhaust gas flow efficiency reasons? I think the ford ecotec setups do this with their BW turbos. Or fully electronic wastegate like the mk7's?


screen cap below: is actual not straying from requested at 5500?

0% n75 duty is limp mode. It means all pressure is directed to the wastegate, causing it to open at the spring pressure (3-5psi)
95% duty is maximum possible boost. All pressure is directed back into the intake pipe and wastegate is bypassed.

Re: AFR deviation: Yes, sorry, I didn't see that. Not sure why actual is doing that and trims aren't doing their thing. I need to look at your logs again. Hopefully something will stand out.

For some reason, lambda control is cutting out. Not sure why, but I have seen it happen on wideband cars up top.

But when it is active, it keeps pulling quite a bit of fuel, so your KRKTE (or MAF) isn't calibrated correctly quite right yet, and/or you have some sort of intake leak still.... so when it turns off, it stops pulling fuel and you go rich.

The solution (like with narrow band cars) is to make sure open loop fueling is right.

That said, someday I should dig around the FR and find out what might cause lambda control to turn off during WOT.

to confirm, lambda control=stft? lambda control avg=ltft?

It's been a while since touching KRKTE (.08936) for the one and only time, should I start by lowering it at the .0000 or .000 decimal place?

no, both are the short term (current fuel trim).   Long term fuel trim values are the "adaption" variables.

I wouldn't concern yourself with the end of the run where it goes rich for now.  You are running an odd "tune" with lower output than stock, yet more fuel, and who knows what else you might have mucked up in the file.  It's not really a real-world tune, don't try to tune around hypothetical scenarios.

In fact, again, I am confused about what this thread is really about and what you are trying to solve, or if it's just another thread to help you gain answers to questions that are answered multiple times throughout the forum.

Learning mainly. Can't really do much unless I know how. If I don't know what to look for, I can't find it myself and if I can't find it myself, I'm gonna ask questions. so here I am, asking questions. After this thread is dead, feel free to delete it if ya'll are concerned with muddying up waters or server space or whatever.

 ;)

No your questions are good ones.

STFT, LTFT and lambda control are 3 separate things.

narrow band has no lambda control, but it does have STFT and LTFT.

Ok so to confirm:
lambda control (fr_w)=stft lambda control avg (frm_w)=also stft
Adaptation partial (fra_w)=ltft

Ive been searching and I can't find anything saying whether or not you should disable LTFTs while tuning KRKTE.

TVUB and FKKVS pertain to fuel trims at idle correct?

Tuning KRKTE: you're looking for fra_w, fr_w and frm_w to be as close to 0 as possible...?  Do I have this correct?

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?action=;topic=2819.0 (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?action=;topic=2819.0)

read this but I'm unsure how to interpret the data he posted along with how to replicate the graphs/charts he made.
Does anyone know how to make axis labels visible on maps in tunerpro?

You have stock fueling, correct?   Stock injectors, stock FPR, stock MAF?  In that case you shouldn't touch any fueling parameters.

4 bar fpr up from 3 bar.Everything else is stock.

Have you changed KRKTE?

I have. And also, fuel pump is upgraded, forgot about that. It is not stock. Both the FPR and pump were added because at 11PSI, I was over 100% IDC with only mods being all emissions systems gone, catless, exhaust system, silicone TIP and pod filter. I assumed VW did not build a lot of headroom into the fueling system so I upgraded. I looked for hardware problems but could not find any in the fuel or air intake system.

It seems I need to fine tune KRKTE, my assumption is to decrease this value bit by bit until.... LTFT get close to 0?

current modified KRKTE: 0.08936
Stock 180ps KRKTE: 0.10301
BAM 225ps KRKTE: 0.08358

When Nyet says "pulling fuel" he means more correction for fuel demand that isn't needed. The goal of KRKTE is to reduce this correction, is this correct?

No offense, but this thread is horrible.

no offense taken, I'm having a very uncoordinated time learning this material. I appreciate all the help regardless of how horrible the thread is. It's very difficult for me to get a concise picture of how to learn this stuff which makes it difficult putting new bits of information into context.

Until I really wrap my head around the fundamentals and basics and how they apply to real life situations, there may be a few more threads like this with me. I apologize in advance and hope ya'll can bear with me.

IMO, flash a 100% stock file and revert back to 3 bar FPR and take logs.

There is plenty of injector to run a stage II tune with a boost profile simliar to this:

20psi @ 3,000rpm
18psi @ 4,500rpm
14psi @ 5,500rpm

I'm not convinced it can't be a learning opportunity, since changing KRKTE and TVUB based ONLY on fpr is actually a pretty good starter fueling exercise.

Don't forget KVB unless you want your MPG estimate to be off on your cluster (for MKIV's I think only GLI's have MPG in the display).

I personally didn't bother with KVB as I dont have a MFD to my knowledge, passats have the half MFD's, 20th edition and 337's have them along with GLI's. When I get one, I'll mess with KVB.


This is exactly why I did it as opposed to injectors. To test the tuning waters without getting in too deep. Your car will drive pretty close to stock with a higher FPR or pump, injectors can throw off idle characteristics I hear.


screencap below is a previous log of my car with 11psi tapered to 8 psi stock boost, stock 3 bar fpr, stock fuel pump, stock injectors, proper measured fuel pressure, emission equipment removed, catless, pod filter, magnaflow catback...115% IDC...

3 to 4 bar is (in theory) 15% (https://www.google.com/search?q=square+root+of+(4%2F3)+-+1) more fuel... which is actually just over the adaptation limit. During idle, not compensating for TVUB properly may (by unintended happenstance) put you within the 5-10% range, which means idle adaption may be fine.

Pump makes no difference if you have a properly functioning FPR.

This 1,000x

so TVUB should? be modified with just a FPR?

edited my post, my calcs were way off.

No, TVUB should always be adjusted depending on fuel pressure. It is NOT fine to leave it alone. It just happens to be ok if you fail to adjust KRKTE, but the result will be very screwed up fueling since part and idle adaptations will be very different, which is NOT ok.

Sure, but fix the unknown issue first before doing so. This car has a problem, and changing the calibration is absolutely the wrong approach. Just going in circles.

Yes, I agree with this.

I'm stumped. I don't know why the injectors are maxing out on stock hardware. Any guesses? entire Fuel system is brand new. every part, no exageration. Intake tract checked for leaks, none. intake pressure tubes all new. pre o2 exhaust leaks would not lead to high IDC. Im stumped.

I think there may be something up with how the stock load maps interact with the lack of all the emissions equipment, pod filter and catless and catback exhaust system. I really think the car needs to be calibrated for these hardware changes.

O2 sensors ok?

Well you won't get to the bottom of it with the logs you provided.   Your injectors are maxing out because the lambda request is very rich.  The logs you provided on the previous page is obviously not a stock tune, as lambda request much richer than a stock request.   You need to log more variables to find out where the rich request is coming from.... lamfa, bts, or kr fueling.

Please, let's stop right here.   Flash a stock file, revert back to 3 bar fpr, and obtain logs.   Log, at minimum, the following vars:

lamsoni_w
lamsbg_w
lambts_w
lamfa_w
lamfaw_w
lamfawkr_w
tabgbts_w

and then everything else that you would normally log.

brand new. less than 1000 miles


ok well, than I'll see ya'll in 3-4 months when I can buy a new K03s turbo, FPR and find time to install the damn thing and re log because thats a gargantuan job with money I don't have right now.

The only thing you have to swap is the FPR.

You can run a stock file on the big turbo, no problem.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT

Wait, now he has a big turbo too? Man I'm going crazy.

No file posted
Non stock hardware
We must all be reeeaaaaalllllyyy bored.

Just add that to the mile long list of other things you don't know. I just can't understand why on earth you'd want to teach yourself to tune by trying to tune out some unknown software/hardware issue.

At least start with a known good hardware setup, and a stock file.

it's not in the car. But the turbo that is in the car can't be confirmed that it is balanced properly because it was rebuilt


LOL NO SHIT

Listen to the people in this thread that are trying to point you in the right direction.

Stock FPR
Stock file
Log

Also...Why haven't you posted the file on your ecu?

no one asked for it.

Please put your file back to stock with a 3bar..And I'm saying this because I looked through the file briefly. What's with all the fueling changes? How did you decide what to do if you aren't able to log?

Yeah, stock file, back to 3 bar.  There's no need to go to 4 bar IMO; it just means you're too cheap to buy bigger injectors.

Make sure that the stock file you have is calibrated for the proper MAF and injectors.  Then get some logs; IDC shouldn't peg.  Then up fuel; log again.  Don't change load/boost. 

You have mentioned this a dozen times. I hope you understand that this is not your issue right? A turbo that is not balanced will destroy itself. So, if it is not screaming itself to death (scraping the wheels on the housings) its not that unbalanced. If you have ran it for 500 miles at stock boost, and it is not leaking or whining, its not your issue. Your posts seem to suggest that you blame the (maybe lack of proper) turbo balancing for boost fluctuations.

No no no, not at all. Im just rather nervous with my car. I dont like destroying things or pushing things to or near their limit without confidence in their validity. As im unsure that the turbo is balanced properly and that i dont know what an unbalanced turbo sounds like, if anything unique in particular i can only assume that the possibility of a WOT run at 11 psi peak stock boost, the turbo could jetison itself into my intercooler is real. Perhaps my inexperience is bringing about overcaution but that is how i must aproach things.

I have an inkling that IRL/IOP is resposible for boost fluctuations but thats just a guess, i need to verify if this is true or not and im sure how to do that. If actual load goes above requested?

I will get my hands on a 3 bar fpr asap and get the car SW back to stock and post my log when i can with the variables needed for assessment.


Problem is, i have logs i took before that had stock boost levels of 11 psi with stock fuel system and fuel parameters and stock MAF where the IDC was unusually close to 100%. Problem is i didnt log the right variables to determine why it was so high, bts or whatever. I will be logging those now.


I am only recently wary of running a WOT log as the turbo rebuild was only a few weeks ago. Fueling changes were done a while back and i took logs before and after to verify. Did research to determine LAMFAWKR was the primary pathway i wanted to use for base WOT fueling.

I don't see how it is relevant to anything when the turbo was rebuilt. It's not like you have to "take it easy" with a rebuilt turbo or something - if anything contacts there it destroys itself.
Stop doing anything until your hardware is fixed and don't waste everyone's time.

IDC over 100%

also, should actual load be so far above requested?

As suspected, BTS fueling is kicking in very early.  Something is causing your calculated egts to be higher than normal which is causing a rich bts fuel request.  (larger downpipe, gutted cat, no rear o2)  It's already calculating 950* just after 3,000rpm.

Also, MAF might be reading slightly higher than normal causing the higher load readings, which could also be a reason for higher egt calcs.

You aren't "running lean" and I wouldn't really worry about your injectors being maxed out.  It's all because the ecu is trying to compensate by adding fuel via BTS to lower EGTs.  Actual lambda is following requested perfectly.

If you want to patch the issue with software, just increase TABGBTS as to disable BTS fueling, or you could modify FBSTABGM to shift BTS enrichment to higher temps.

LOL I really should have looked at your actual logs instead of trusting your topic of "running lean"

My cat less down pipe split a weld from too much heat (only split at a bad flow point right out of the turbine side housing so its likely high EGT's (which the log reflects).

anyway, while I weld that up, the OEM down pipe with cat is back on and was in place for this most recent log. Also, both O2's are present, brand new, OEM and working.


Yea I did that with the other tune I put together that ya'll wanted me to get rid of.

My whole question was which direction to modify KRKTE in for dialing in fueling with a 4 bar FPR in preparation to install my turbocharger and to give me advice on if my load readings seemed off. I had figured out I wasn't running lean a while ago, I just didn't want to muddy the forums with more questions of mine so I posted it here. What should I do about the MAF readings?

Also, I had questions about part throttle tuning and why I am still experiencing this "boost drop" sensation. Not really sure why I reverted back to the old tune with an old FPR.