NefMoto

I'm not sure if this has already been posted here, and feel free to delete if so, but here is a thorough analysis of the 'defeat devices' on the TDI ECU's that was published not too long ago. It talks about the conditions and tests/routines the ecu runs to know whether it was currently on an emission test, etc.  Pretty cool analysis!

https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf

additional

https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions

Interesting! Thank you. ;)

Long read. I saw something about the steering wheel. I'd assume the gist of it is that they knew the dyno test was a certain speed or driving cycle...but additionally the engineers knew that there's literally never any time when the steering angle doesn't turn, and there's NO lateral or transverse acceleration detected, thus if you're quarter throttle and don't even have a tenth of a g of accelleration then you're on a dyno and cut the power.

The dumb part is that their whole anti tuning stance is what fucked them. They didn't even NEED to do this, from what I've seen it resulted in like a 15 or 20% increase in torque or power. I couldn't find the power increase, but here's a link to a video showing how they BELIEVED they were turning the cheat mode off.

https://www.wired.com/2015/10/vw-diesel-cheat-mode-mpg-performance/

As it shows, they barely got faster, if at all. Mostly, it caused it to lose fuel economy, like 4 or 5 mpg. So it seems that the cheat was more likely done to give it better fuel economy in testing. That's VERY strange to me, because I always found the sticker MPG to be lower than what I could get real world if I babied mine. I was happy being able to go full throttle everywhere I went and get 38 mpg or so in my 2013 Sportwagen.

If they did it for power that was really dumb because the majority of people buying them weren't doing it for power reasons, and it was plenty fast stock, plus chip tuning could take care of it.

It sounds to me like they leaned it out, which increased fuel economy, and running more lean also caused a power increase very slightly in some models because more lean is more power, and it caused the required increase in fuel economy to try to put it higher over the Prius while still being equipped with the luxury VW and Audi owners expect, which adds weight.

What I can't believe, is that they didn't think somebody would find out. I also can't believe that the testing authorities in governments aren't testing the vehicle in real world conditions with a mobile gas analyzer. We're finding out the economy but we aren't doing it with the largest  causes of restriction upon movement? Gravity forces and wind/needing to move the weight of the vehicle. It's stupid and 40 years behind the times. It's really the governments fault.

If I was the engineers though, I would have realized that the tuning industry would eventually put a car on a dyno that was tuned, which I ASSUME would still enter the testing mode and just change the numbers relative to the stock maps. The guys who tuned it would then wonder WHY the numbers were lower than anticipated due to simulators, or guessing. Then hook a Gforce or any app on their phone up to measure real world numbers and figure out something was amiss.

Tune it like it needed to absolve the company, and then enter a joint business venture with a tuning company to allow them to have their people tune the vehicle for power, absolving you of sin.

I'm still confused why the EPA hasn't gone after APR, or HPA, or JHMotorsports or something since the law is written that, "Any modification to an emissions system is a  $10,000 dollar fine." Literally any tune modifies the emissions of the vehicle.

It's rare for a shop to do, but I HAVE seen overcautious shops that go by the technical rule that if you're going to do any readiness or emissions defeats, the car should be an "off road" vehicle. Meaning, even if it's street registered, the owner needs to claim it's an off road vehicle only, and make them tow it in and out of the shop to protect yourself.

Here in Washington at least, I've never heard of anybody getting messed with. I'd assume California it may happen.

I THOUGHT that Dodge used to have tunes authorized by the factory done at the dealer, but I can't find them. But I DID find this. They're releasing something for the Challenger Hellcat called the Demon Crate, it's going to come with a snap on jack, electric impact, wheels, and a SPARE ECM loaded with a 100 octane race gas tune. Read the following.

"The tune will be included in the Demon crate on a separate engine computer that the owner can swap out when he or she is ready to race. In addition to the computer, the center stack also has a button to activate the high-octane mode. A pair of fuel pumps and larger injectors also ensure the engine gets plenty of that sweet racing fuel.

When not running the high-octane tune, the Demon runs on your average premium gasoline. Also, in case you accidentally run premium gas with the high-octane mode activated, the car will automatically switch to the default tune if engine knock is detected. You can get a peek at the system in the video above, and be on the lookout for a bonus video tomorrow. The full reveal will be next week on April 11 at the New York auto show."

Key there, "If you accidentally run premium gas with the high-octane mode activated, the car will automatically switch to the default tune IF ENGINE KNOCK IS DETECTED"

Now, on the stock tunes we have, our timing pull will allow you to run 87 with enough timing pull AND MORE to run 87. This car uses the AC to cool the intake or intercooler (looking for pics and specs still) similar to what they were going to do with the Ford Lightning and scrapped. I want to do the same, put a parallel evaporator in the water tank for an air water intercooler to get 40 degree intake temps all the time  ;D so my guess is that you can run the high octane mode all the time on the street, and it may pull a few degrees of timing, but the amount of timing it pulls, with the increase in boost it offers, is likely still going to be possible.

When it comes out in a week we shall see, but my guess is people can still run it unless it's super hot where they live, and it'll stay in high octane tune...Then Dodge can claim it's for track only it's not supposed to be installed and be in the clear.

If VW just freaking made better inroads with tuning companies they wouldn't need to absorbe the risk. Or make a TDI cup ECM...

Stopped reading here.

Just a heads up to others on this thread - this person has no idea how a diesel combustion engine works, so take what he writes with a grain of salt.

LOL make diesel leaner than it makes more power  ;D

LMAO

That's how a diesel works without a throttle. When you lift off the pedal it keeps adding more and more diesel until the motor cuts out and slows the car down.

You didn't read it at all.  Read it properly, from start to finish and you'll see you're in the rhubarb.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/jypx9q8nlv22td9/Screenshot%202017-06-10%2001.32.54.png?dl=0)

Look what I said AFTER that, I MEANT economy, which is why the next sentence talks about how they did it for economy. It DID result in power though. They changed the fuel TIMING as well and I know that had an effect. I assure you I know what's up. I was an ASE Master tech at 20 years old, the youngest ever as far as they know. I was a Mechanic in the Army Hmwvee, 2.5 ton, 5 ton, and I'm a VW/Audi master tech. I have

I also have a degree in CNC machining, had a 3 axis CNC mill until last year. I can build an engine from scratch if I wanted to. Sorry to be that guy but if you're going to call somebody out about knowing nothing, probably best not to do it with a guy with a deal with Continental Belts to advertise for them/knows the CEO.

You should PROBABLY also know what the fuck you're talking about yourself and 5 minutes would have taken you



Air fuel ratios DO apply to diesels. Diesels run shit tons of fuel when under extreme boost, but they have stoichiometry, and you CAN build power with it, they add fuel MOSTLY to keep EGT low, which is what WRC racing had to do when water injection was banned.

Fuel is done for COOLING, and for emissions (cat function). It doesn't need to be. It makes more power than gasoline and runs hotter, it needs more cooling for EGT reasons. Read this. Towed a 5000 lb trailer on a banks tuned Dakota with a cummins, got 24 mpg to Utah and back.

http://bankspower.com/magazines/show/608-no-smoke-with-fire

SMOKE FREE
His first step was to make the engine smoke free:  ‘It smoked without the turbo, but the minute I put the turbo on I could put enough air through the engine to combust all the fuel within the combustion chamber, rather than pump out smoke.'


http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/expert-advice/0904dp-diesel-engines/

"Another reason for diesel's power is the diesel fuel itself. It contains 15% more energy per gallon than gasoline. Additionally, a diesel engine can run extremely lean and without the pumping losses associated with a throttle. In a gasoline engine, a rich fuel-air mixture is used to keep combustion cool and catalytic converters operating properly. A diesel can run very lean and still have low exhaust gas temperatures."

Sorry I have a habit of that. I got to the part describing how diesels work and the emissions systems and shit and trailed off at the stuff I knew. They also basically used the knowledge that they know how long the vehicle drives at each rpm, plus steering.

That was part of what I was talking about kind of, this is the procedure for test drive, they know what speeds and how long they drive it and used that to their advantage. Which is why I said they need to do this by ACTUALLY DRIVING the thing. Like a test drive. Drive it through a couple tanks of fuel, road trips, city, mixed, and have it hooked to a gas analyzer. How hard is it to have employees drive the car to and from work like a shop.

(https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/medium/public/2015-10/ftpdds.gif)

Steering input has nothing to do with it though.

Because you need a controlled environment to have repeatable data. It is the same with car manufacturer fuel consumption numbers, that also come from controlled environment testing. If you dont use a controlled environment, it is impossible to verify or compare data. Data would vary from day to day.

Please, keep talking and making an even bigger fool of yourself.
None of your dickwagging is going to make up for your lack of knowledge. Go pick up a book.

To others - the sentences above are validation that this person has no idea how a diesel engine works, let alone has ever tuned one.

Yes you can get cooler EGT with more fuel in a diesel.
But not in a range you can use on the street.
From 10:1 / 15:1 range you can get cooling from extra fuel but will smoke like HELL...
Truck/tractor they do it this  way, but smoke is extreme!

We are talking about street cars here.

Exactly, tractorpulling engines run 10:1 AFR and do use the diesel to cool down the pistons/turbine, but just look at how much smoke they produce and it'll be enough to prove how much bullsh!t has been posted here.

You didn't read the article from Banks did you?

I'll spare you the time you don't know what the fuck you're talking about they have the fastest diesel in the world and it doesn't even smoke.

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You didn't read the article either did you?



What you're talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the fucking design constraints of a diesel engine and everything to do with the fact that the processor speeds in the engine control modules on our vehicles are too slow to run the leaner air-fuel ratios without risking egt and in cylinder temps rising too quickly for the ECM to sense it before damage occurs.

Your tractor pull analogy shows how clueless you are.

Now that we're stepping away from 32-bit processors and starting to go to processors running 250 megahertz or more it's absolutely possible and there are plenty of people doing it.


Gasoline cars used to smoke too as they were tuned for more power. We were using narrow band sensor initially that could only be sampled 10 times per second and then on me 7 we now have a wideband sensor that can be sampled a hundred times per second and the newer ECM can check it a thousand times per second.

That means that you can run the leaner mixtures and not have to worry about needing to dump fuel for cooling reasons.

You're discussing limitations of the engine management system and not the engine and you're pretty smug about it for somebody who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about, to somebody who has the tools, skills, and access to CNC machines to build an engine from scratch if I wanted to.

I didn't sit out for it to be a dick wagging contest at all, but when somebody says that an engine can't make Power without black smoke which is a symptom of incomplete combustion which means you sent fuel through the engine without even utilizing all of its energy, then ya I'm going to back it up.

Your statement is literally diesels can't make power without running so much fuel that they can't burn it all.

See how fucking stupid that sounds? Black smoke is hydrocarbons it is literally wasted energy it's not necessary at all.

It's a stupid as saying you can't fill your coffee cup up all the way unless coffee is overflowing and running down the sides.

Or saying that you can't eat enough to fill your stomach unless you're vomiting some of it back up.

If a diesel smoking under power it means that shitty engine design that inefficient, like the Chevy diesels in the 80s, or means that the tuner either lacks of the knowledge or hardware to provide enough sensor resolution to be able to confidently add only the amount of fuel that it needed without risking the EGTs going too high.

It means you are exceeding the maximum amount of air that the turbo can push into the engine and still continuing to add fuel.

And as the article states, the vehicles did actually fucking pick up more power while getting better fuel better fuel economy.

An engine is a heat pump it needs as much heat as it can get without melting components so if the result of adding more fuel is cooling down egts it means that you are wasting energy, the EGT is cooler because the fuel is not burning completely.

How can you possibly fucking say that a HEAT PUMP makes more power if you feed it less heat?

There's only one of us here that fires off emails to the CEO of Conti Rein Pentosin, and is immediately contacted by their head of engineering to improve the product the same day and it ain't you.

You're a know nothing know it all.

The thing about it that doesn't make sense there is that if you work at a dealership, you'll notice that the MFA on the vehicle's pretty much all read the same.

The fuel economy estimates on vehicle stickers are widely known to be incorrect on nearly every single vehicle.

I understand that what you're saying is the idea behind it but it doesn't make sense to make the claim that were using repeatable test because it's more accurate yet it doesn't ever matchup against the real world.

Their logic behind it is that people have different driving Styles so yes they want to mandate the conditions under which they give the fuel estimates so that they don't get different driving styles getting different fuel economy.

In reality though it doesn't matter whether it's a gasoline engine or a diesel engine Peabody that works in a high-volume dealership that specializes in one make of car will tell you that there's basically only two different numbers that will show up on the vehicles coming in and that's for the people to drive conservatively and the people that drive more aggressively.

So for example on a common rail diesel if you take a hundred of them coming through the shop and compare the readings 75 of them will be getting 44 miles per gallon and 25 of them will be getting 38 miles per gallon. Obviously it's not right on the button what I'm talking they vary from each other by less than 1 mile per gallon meaning the higher mileages will run from 43 and a half to 44 and a half and the more aggressive drivers will range from 37 and a half to 38 and a half and almost all of them will be within that range.

I don't know what the exact answer is but I'm just saying that the fuel economy estimates don't match up so the repeatability of the test is great but they need to get the test to the point where the repeatability actually mirrors what real world drivers do.

For the diesel vehicles that basically means that they need to change the RPM ranges so that they don't go quite as high or something to get that number closer to what they really see in real life.

And the alh engines were the same way the automatics got like 40 MPGs and the manuals got like 40 for 45 across-the-board pretty much.

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This makes me question if you have ever done any engine tuning?

It makes me question if you understand how an engine works or think maybe...just MAYBE you should do some research before calling somebody out when you don't know what you're talking about.

"In general terms, the larger the difference in temperature between the hot source and the cold sink, the larger is the potential thermal efficiency of the cycle. On Earth, the cold side of any heat engine is limited to being close to the ambient temperature of the environment, or not much lower than 300 kelvins, so most efforts to improve the thermodynamic efficiencies of various heat engines focus on increasing the temperature of the source, within material limits. The maximum theoretical efficiency of a heat engine (which no engine ever attains) is equal to the temperature difference between the hot and cold ends divided by the temperature at the hot end, all expressed as absolute temperatures (in kelvins)."


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine

I'm not saying that you never have or don't know anything about it.

That paragraph just makes it sound like a hot engine with with high IAT and high EGT would make more power than a operating temp engine with cool IAT and moderate EGT.

I know that a hotter gas expands more rapidly than its colder counterpart, and therefore would make more power on the power stroke. But as you say yourself "within limitations" and we can extend that limit with the excess fuel cooling the combustion chamber and EGT.

And if I'm totally of, then Fuck it.

You want the lowest intake air temperature possible with the highest EGT possible that will not cause the Pistons Rings or valves to melt or otherwise lose their proper metallurgical properties.

For every 11 degrees you can drop your intake air temp you gain approximately about 1% horsepower gain.

The higher the EGT the more the fuel is completing its combustion process while still inside the engine. It sounds counterintuitive because it's based on the ratio to air.

It's like this you can only burn up fuel as you have oxygen molecules for, once the oxygen molecules are depleted in cylinder you can't burn any more fuel.

So once you add fuel past that point you cannot make any more power all it will do is drop your exhaust gas temps because you just lowered the efficiency of the combustion process.

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Maybe a bit offtopic, but... I cant believe you are writing all of this text from a mobile phone, do you have some kind of toilet problem or what  :o
(original topic is long lost anyway)

Galaxy S8 Plus, I just buy the absolute best cell phone I can ever buy. Google's speech-to-text is phenomenally better than Apples.

Occasionally I will kind of have to go onto my laptop and clean up some of it but for the most part the Galaxy Flagship phones coupled with Google's keyboard and speech to text is fucking awesome.

I used to be an expert on a justanswer.com and I would make like 10 to $15,000 a year as a VW and Audi expert on there and so it just became the necessary thing.

The way that their website is set up the first expert to grab a question gets it and so during peak hours if I didn't have a really fast cell phone I would lose out on maybe a hundred bucks in a day on a busy day and so I just got into the habit of getting a new phone every year so that I could do it as fast as possible from anywhere.

My wife hated it because I was constantly on my phone and she me complaining during dinner that I wouldn't put the phone down and I look up and say why I just made 40 bucks and paid for dinner so oh well.

Eventually the customer equality starting to suffer and also they allowed any mechanic to be an expert in any category and I got sick of the Chevy guys posting in VW and Audi and pissing off the customers when they didn't know what the fuck they were talking about and I just ended up ditching the site and starting my own site.

I get stoich combustion, I'm just saying the way you phrased that paragraph made it sound like a hotter engine all the way around would make more power than a colder.

I use the cooling effect of the excess fuel to compensate for my shitty cooling setup :)
And for me it works.

You should do that here.

Your whole text about MPG calculations is hugely incorrect.  It's based from injector time and is a known constant.  The engine knows how much fuel it has used and how far it has travelled.  That's all there is to it.

The MFA is only incorrect if it has the incorrect scaling, which is always correct from factory.

The rest is also bollocks.

ok, you read some Banks papers.
Good job, it is always good to read as much info as possible.
But...., do you have a lot of expirience with tuning big power diesel engines your self??
I can say i do.. and your posts are not always in touch with reality..

Put very mildly... he has no idea what he is on about.
He is also on some sort of powertrip. Probably one of the biggest trolls we've had so far on this site.

He will keep posting his pages upon pages of trash though, I gave up on reading it.

See guys this is one the falls under the those who cant teach rule, the problem in this case is that he is
on a site with a few people that understand and I mean really understand the modern forced inducton
engine. The stuff he is talking is basic things taught to the kids going though school.

LOL.
He just posts bullshit that he makes up as he goes along. No relevance to real world whatsoever.
Pro-tip for you - look how the EGT limiter works on every single production car diesel engine out there.