NefMoto

Hello everyone! :)
I can't find info on 0280156023 injectors TVUB values. They're from SAAB and rated 373.1cc/min @ 3bar. But that's it. I cant find any datasheet or any other info on how to calculate TVUB for these injectors. So, any help would be appreciated :)

BTW: I need values for these voltages: 8V, 10V, 12V, 14V, 16V ;)

test and tune.....  :-\

And how do you propose I test the lag time? By trim levels? Because those I can easily fix with KRTKE and minimum injector open time... But how to calculate and set up TVUB properly I do not know...

You could tart start from using data from injectors with simlar spec and lag time.  Log ti_w and trims at given voltage, then apply changes and log again.  


Prerequisites for application of the pulsation map
---------------------------------------------------------
- Adaptation of the battery voltage correction TVUB, poss. determined by way of fuel measuring
- Neutralisation of all enrichments, i.e. set pre-control to Lambda=1 (e.g. KFLF);
Pulsation correction initially neutralised (set KFPU to 1);
Deactivate or increase psmax limitation
Application of the pulsation map
------------------------------------
The pulsation map is used to compensate pulsation errors of the
HFM; it is not intended to correct errors in the reverse flow range.
Definition of pulsation range:
Voltage oszillation of air mass sensor HFM < 0.5V
Definition of reverse range:
Voltage of air mass sensor HFM < 1.0
Adaptation of the pulsation map:
- Definition of the pulsation range; poss. distribution of interpolation points of the pulsation map for better coverage of the
pulsation range
In fuel systems without constant differencial pressure upstream of the injection valve (e.g. RLFS), i.e. where the pressure
regulator does not operate against the intake manifold pressure as a reference pressure, this must be specially guaranteed for
application of the pulsation map (connection of the pressure regulator to the intake manifold).
If this is not possible for technical reasons, the varying pressure differential upstream of the injection valve must be taken
into account beforehand in a correction map (see note on RLFS systems).

The OBD II legislation requires monitoring of the fuel supply system. A defective fuel supply system leads to deviations in the

pilot mixture control. As a result, the average control factor (frm) will deviate from factor 1.0.
The mixture adaptation (LRA) will try to "learn" such errors in order to correct the error even during dynamic engine operation in
the best possible way. The best result is obtained for errors with a specifically assigned LRA integrator. Examples are:
- rkat in case of an additive error per time (leakage air)
- frau, frao in case of a multiplicative error (pressure controller tolerance or fluctuating fuel density)
- rkaz in case of an additive error per ignition (injection valve-delay time TVUB wrong)
Within certain limits (+/- 25% multiplicative and +/- 25% additive) the mixture adaptation is capable of correcting such an
error with only little impact on emissions. Errors, however, which deviate from the above-mentioned characteristics cause
continuously activated integrators. In this case only part of the error can be compensated and a residual error remains which
must constantely be compensated by the Lambda controller dependent on the load and engine speed point. In this case the
legal emission limits may be exceeded by factor 1.5 even in case of small deviations of the LRA integrators from the neutral value.
This must be taken into consideration when selecting the diagnosis thresholds.
The diagnosis thresholds of the LRA adaptation values are to be determined such that the emissions do not exceed the defined
limits with respect to the factor 1.5 (see block APP).
The DKVS is closely connected to the mixture adaptation (LRA) and it evaluates the following integrators of the mixture adaptation:
- RKAT...: additive error per time (e.g. leakage air)
- FRAU...: multiplicative error (at average air masses - lower mulitplicative range)
- FRAO...: multiplicative error (at high air masses - upper multiplicative range)
- RKAZ...: additive error per ignition (e.g. wrongly adjusted valve delay time TVUB)
Apart from the error flags (E xyz) and the corresponding cycle flags (Z xyz) the DKVS also provides the information "basic
adaptation stabilized" (B gae). Once the adaptation has stabilized an early switch-over to long canister purge phases can
be performed (see phase control %BBTEGA).
Apart from the integrator values (rkat w, frau w, frao w and rkaz w) and the conditions B rkat, B frau, B rkaz and B frao,
the DKVS also needs the information from the mixture adaptation whether the corresponding integrator has reached resp.
exceeded one of the reduced thresholds.
- B rkatr: a reduced threshold of rkat reached resp. exceeded
- B fraur: a reduced threshold of frau reached resp. exceeded
- B fraor: is not needed since frao is not checked for stabilization
- B rkazr: a reduced threshold of rkaz reached resp. exceeded
As soon as the reduced thresholds are reached resp. exceeded the bit "mixture adaptation stabilized" (B gae) can no
longer be set.
The reduced thresholds were introduced in order to avoid possible error messages which mistakenly occur under certain
conditions (e.g. high charge of the activated carbon filter).
The banks 1 and 2 have the same structure. Where bank-specific signals occur

Is it VAG engine? Do you plan to use car in cold clima?
If yes, than this injectors are not best choice, because spray orientation is 180 grad rotate comparing to stock injectors.
It's better to use 0280156063/64 360cc.

My car is passat 1.8T. And what do you mean by cold? :) Because for one person cold is +20C and for another -50C. Coldest temp here in Lithuania is ~ -10C. Today was -2C and injectors were fine (only map changed right now is KRKTE). No trying to understand TVUB, because I want to sort out fueling first before moving onto torque maps....

BTW: This thread has some easier to understand info on how to change TVUB values... http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402750-The-Great-Maestro-7-Tuning-Suite-Thread?p=6039960&viewfull=1#post6039960 (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402750-The-Great-Maestro-7-Tuning-Suite-Thread?p=6039960&viewfull=1#post6039960). Don't know if the author is right though so maybe someone could check it and report ;)

Thank you nokiafix! Could you explain in simple words how to fix tvub? for example: at idle check vcds group 032 or something then depending on that value update tvub for current voltage... I know this sounds stupid, but there must be a easy way to do this. Link I posted earlier has info on how to fix TVUB just by applying more voltage consumption and checking o2 sensor readings...

ti_w <- what's this variable? I don't have it in my me7logger configuration...

I also think that your only hope is to get the spec from similar injectors because I'm not sure how easy it's going to be generate a range of battery voltages! ti_w is not itself listed as a variable in ME7logger space. You will need:

;ti_b1            ;{FuelInjectorOnTime}               ; {Einspritzzeit für EV's auf Bank1}

TTQS

Thank you very much for clarification!

Here is the latency data you need for those injectors (Bosch 0280156023)

6V -> 3,80 ms
7V -> 2,95 ms
8V -> 2,33 ms
9V -> 1,93 ms
10V -> 1,62 ms
11V -> 1,39 ms
12V -> 1,20 ms
13V -> 1,05 ms
14V -> 0,92 ms
15V -> 0,82 ms

Hope this helps. Taken from OEM data.

Thank you very very much!

Hello, i've used these values for TVUB for saab injectors and Me7Wizzard calculator for KRKTE and I get 18% of lambda correction. What KRKTE did you use back then.

shorthand to calculate krkte: (stock krkte x kvb) / new kvb = new krkte as a starting point.
Use ltft at idle to dial in tvub in the 12-14v cells (if its pulling fuel lover the values or the opposite and add if needed.)  Use ltft at part/ full throttle to fine tune krkte (positive correction means needs more injection quantity.)  
Also, make sure that the injectors are genuine units, the china shit clones are starting to really get out of hand.

I've tried everything. My logs are shit. Can't figure out these injectors. They are OEM ones 100% but lambda control is crazy. FKKVS Fixer gives nonsence numbers. IDK what to do anymore. Help please. Here is some screenshots and MOD ORI and MapPack and latest LOG with FKKVS all 1s.

These injectors do work quite moderately even with untouched fkkvs. Not perfectly, but you probably have some other problem. However, the fact is, as already mentioned in the thread, that the spray pattern of these is 10 degrees away from the connector, so they should be turned 180 degrees if possible. I didn't do it myself because of mechanical interference and the info is from the time when I used these as a temporary in my AJQ engine.

There are many ways to tune dead times. One that I use most is set fkkvs all to 1's and use dead times of injectors that are close, since those saab injectors are really close to normal vag injectors; I would use the dead times from a 180 or 225 as a starting point. Then calculate krkte theoretical value, and flash the car with the starting calibrations that you have made. Then wait for the car to go into a closed loop, start doing some mixed driving, log long term fuel trims and adjust accordingly. Normally I start with the long term fuel trims at idle, if the ecu is adding fuel to idle ltft’s then it is normally a safe assumption (providing your theoretical krkte value is close to target) that you need more injector on  time in tvub between the 12 and 14 volt cells. When tuning tvub you really only need to focus on the 12-14v cells as that's normal system operating voltage.  You will need to make a few edits, and shoot for as close to zero as possible, 2% is a good goal. Krkte more or less would reflect your long term fuel trims at part / full throttle and the same theory applies for adjusting that.  Once you have krkte within 5% you can go back to fkkvs and run through that. This works good for me and is normally my goto method for calculating tvub for injectors with unknown dead times. Also, I have seen less favorable results with more convoluted methods. Just my 2c, do with it what you will.

The thing with using those old shit injectors is that they are very non-linear.
Obviously in this case the deadtime is wrong as well.

But you're gonna end up with massive non-linearity in the midrange.
Same for the 440C EV6 Green Giants.

You could just buy EV14's and have them dialed in quickly.
Instead you buy the cheapest shit possible and then wonder why it's so hard to tune.
They're cheap for a reason. DUH.

Is it possible to get them dialed in right? Absolutely. Is it a pain in the ass? Yes.