NefMoto

Hello
My car is a Seat Leon mk1
mods are
gt30 ar.82
tubular exhuast mani
Tial 38mm external wg
siemens 630cc
stock large port intake mani
stock large port head
W\M Injection with 50\50 mix set to: start 0.5bar, full 2.0bar
stock tb
large fuel rail+Fuelab AFPR set to 3.0 bar fuel pressure
NEW walbro 255 intank fuel pump
local tuner chip with maf

the car problem:
at wot from low rpm to rev limit (7.5K) my o2 lambda always adding fuel as you can see in this log.
this log is at 3rd gear and with only 19psi.
also some times at 7k to 7.5k rpm my air\fuel ratio goes from 12-12.3 to 13-14-15---(aem wideband)
and then i Takes the foot off the Pedal.
i bought a new fuel pump and checked the fuel pressure while i did this log,it was ok, about 63psi from 5k rpm and stays untill red line.
my idle is fine,also at cruising the a\f is about 14.7
my fuel trims in block 032 are 3.4 and 2.7

what could be the problem ?
tnx

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Avo75N3TmrVrdFZ0N2cxNGo5b0pXa1MyUXZESDR5cnc&hl=en_US#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Avo75N3TmrVrdFZ0N2cxNGo5b0pXa1MyUXZESDR5cnc&hl=en_US#gid=0)

Firstly, your spreadsheet can't be accessed because it's asking for a login ID and password.

Secondly, it's going to be difficult to diagnose without some detailed information on which parameters in your ECU have been recalibrated, how and why. You've got a variety of physical modifications which will require a number of different recalibrations. Is this a custom tune or an off-the-shelf remap?

To get to the bottom of this, you'll probably need to supply us or a diagnostic expert with a lot more information, such as what was changed in your ECU code and why, and some extensive logs during WOT pulls, ideally with a multi-variable logger like the one developed by setzi on here. Otherwise, it's just going to be educated guesswork

Which country are you based in? Do you have any knowledge of chiptuning or diagnostics? Just so we can get a handle on what you can do yourself to help.

TTQS

fix the spreadsheet!!

We will need to see the tune on your ECU I think.

this is a custom tune.
i do have some knowledge about chip tune and how to do logs,but its basic knowledge.
i tried once to read my ecu with the Nefmoto software but the file is protected so i guess i need to do a bench flash
i wish i had all the tools for a bench flash,i only have the obd2 cable.
in the log file you can see that the injector duty cycle is pretty low
so i thought maybe there is any map that i can change to open the injectors a bit more.
i hope this log help a little bit

In your log seems that you go to 7200rpm, then lift throttle and then again wot.

Hi. I presume you can't just go back to the tuner and ask them to sort out the problem? I.e., you bought the car with that tune on it rather than having it done yourself? Do you know who did the remap and what mods have been done after it was put on. Again, where are you based? If U.K., there are plenty of good, reputable remappers who will sort this out for you.

Secondly, your log is only showing injector on time, not IDC. To get from injector on time to IDC, you need to apply the following formula in your spreadsheet:

100*(ms/((2*60*1000)/rpm))

where ms is your injector on-time in milliseconds from your raw log and rpm is obviously engine speed.

Any chance you could get setzi's logger working on your car then run some logs with that? See the following thread for details:

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=837.msg7054#msg7054

Since you can't flash off your ECU image because it's write-protected, you will need to find the original ECU image for your car if you don't already have one. Can you post up some details of your vehicle (e.g. model year & original spec so at least we can find the ECU part # on ETKA).

I've attached a sample config file for ME7logger (assuming your car is actually ME7) with 25 basic logging variables. If and when you find your ECU image, just edit the line which refers to my details (Audi TT 1.8T BFV 240 PS 8N0 906 018 CA 0261208086 375111.ecu) and paste in the reference to your ECU image.

TTQS

i hope you saw the lambda actual and requested in the log
i'm not from UK
i can return to my tuner at any time to make changes
at first i had 550CC injectors and stock fuel rail with 3bar fpr with small port head
the O2 was much better but the IDC was high as 100%+
i changed the head to big port with intake mani (all stock intenals)
also changes to 630cc seimens and big fuel rail with afpr and since than the IDC went lower but the o2 adding fuel in high numbers and my actual AFR is pretty lean until its jump out the target

neither me and my tuner don't really know what is the map that need to be tweaked and we both very busy now.
(if the problem is the tune and not with the car).
i still want to check and do log without W\M injection,and also raise a bit the fuel pressuer.
i did the calculation for IDC,i have a simple tool for it and as i say my IDC is pretty low at this log.
my ECU part number is 032HN
i really want to know how to use this data logger but i didnt understand how to, i will read again the link you shard and i hope to find out how to use it, i have 2 OBD cables
one is the cheap one from ebay that used for unisettings, and second is newer that works with VCDS 912

tnx for the help
very Appreciate it

I have the same car / ECU. I'll try to post my ME7L config for you tomorrow.

Regarding your tune, sounds to me you need to start from the beginning and ensure your base MAF and injector timings are accurate for your hardware. Otherwise you could be forever chasing symptoms from one map to another.

Carl will help you out. Handy that you have the same car.

Since you're making changes to fuel injectors and FPR, I'll ask the 'obvious': is your tuner recalibrating KRKTE & TVUB correctly to take account of these changes? Intake manifold changes could affect KISRM. This is fundamental stuff before anyone starts trying to diagnose your ignition angle advance and requested load profiles, etc.

The statement that your tuner doesn't know the "map to be tweaked" worries me. He either knows what he's doing and then it's reasonable to read protect his code or he doesn't and it should be free for you to read, analyse and work on yourself. It's going to be difficult for anyone to help without knowing what the current status of your tune is.

TTQS

After i made the change of the big port head,intake mani,afpr,fuel rail and injectors
i didnt returned to the tuner Because the car worked fine at idle and cruise
so i thought it will be good at wot, also i just did a full engine rebuild and running the engine easy for about 1K km.
and just now started to do some logs.
my tuner is a good one,but works on some other stuff so is pretty busy, i need to go to him and make the changes
i'm sure he will know what to do at the end,In the meantime i thought maybe i'll learn by myself with the help of this forum
so now i know to tell my tuner to check KRKTE and KISRM.
KRKTE is the injector constant ? if so its should be 0.044923 at 4bar ? how can i calculate it for 3bar, 3.5bar ?
injector constant is only for injectors ? or its depend on other mods as turbo manifolds etc ??
what is KISRM ?
tnx again

*EDIT*
did some searches and readings at the last two hours
i know that i can tweak block 032 in vcds with the unisettings (primery and secondary fuel)
actually i made some changes and got 3.4 and 2.7 values
if KRKTE is Related to the second block my value should be good (injector constant )
maybe its the first block ? (3.4) this one Related to Battery voltage compensation ? (TVUB) ?
I Am all confused now

Hi.

There is a section on recalibrating KRKTE in the document on the link below but can't remember whether TVUB is mentioned. The battery voltage compensation curve should be with the injector spec sheet. I should imagine your tuner would know both of these, but first rule of diagnostics is never assume anything.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=62.msg3330

KISRM is integrator constant for the intake manifold model and takes into accout engine displacement and intake volume from throttle body to inlet valves. The expression for calculating it is on the wiki. This should only be affected if there is a difference in volume between the stock intake manifold and aftermarket one.

http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/wiki/index.php/BGSRM_17.10_(Cylinder_Charge_Detection,_Intake_Manifold_Model)

These factors might not be the problem, they're just what occurred to me because I've looked into them a bit. We've had quite a few questions about calibrating KRKTE that it's the first thing I usually ask about!  ;)

TTQS

i understand KRKTE and TVUB.
about KIRSM i changed from stock small port intake mani to stock big port one so i don't think there is much diffrent.
when i will have the time and with a better weather i'll go to my tuner and do the needed changes.
i still have a simple question
does KRKTE can Effect my o2 and lower it from the log i posted ?

KRKTE when correctly calibrated will ensure the injectors are on for the necessary time to inject the amount of fuel to achieve the desired lambda. Overall, it will have to be smaller for larger injectors but if it's not quite right, the ECU will still have to compensate via the multiplicative or LTFT.

Have you checked for leaks in the charge air system and ancillary systems which use pressurised air and vacuum, e.g. N75 acutuation via N249? If you're losing air that has been metered and accounted for by the ECU, your LTFT will make the appropriate adjustments. Do you have good quality silicon aftermarket hoses or are you using mostly old, OEM rubber?

Again, I'm probably insulting your intelligence by asking the basic questions, but this is where I would start. Sorry, I didn't really think about the magnitude and sign of your trims. They didn't seem too bad (i.e. multiplicative << 10%) so maybe neither of these factors are the issue?

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/fuel-trim.html

The Ross Tech wiki also suggests "an out-of-spec value in the second field (multiplicative) [in block 032] indicates a fault at higher RPM, and may point to a faulty MAF." If this might be the issue, take the MAF meter out of its housing and give it a good clean with a volatile solvent that doesn't leave a residue, e.g. aerosol-based brake and clutch cleaner.

What peak figures are your expecting on that hardware configuration? 236 g/s equates to 295 bhp which is pretty good for the 1.8T but I would have thought 320+ bhp is possible on a big turbo?

We need to see some WOT pulls with setzi's ME7logger.

TTQS

Have you done a DTC scan with VCDS? I presume it's clear?

TTQS

all DTC clean
i did checked for all vacumm tubes and did a vacumm test even before started to do logs
i have greddy boost control so the N75 is not the problem
my MAF is in 3'' housing (tt25,vr6).
on this turbo 320hp is low, with stock motor and 2-2.2bar of boost i need to see more then 400whp
i thinking to do a wot log without maf maybe it will do diffrence
i wand to do logs with the me7 logger but dont know how
tnx

O.k., well you're pretty clued up on most of the common problems. As you say, with your hardware, the 295 bhp you're peaking at is way low so probably an issue with the remap not getting the most out of the big turbo.

First port of call is going to be some quality 3rd & 4th gear WOT pulls with ME7logger. Carl will provide your ECU image. I was a bit frightened of the utility at first (not being particularly IT minded, but in fact it's very simple to use with the GUI.

If the state of the recalibration is the problem and not a hardware fault, then it's going to be difficult for anyone on here to help if we can't examine your remapped code, particularly stuff like KFMIRL and LDRXN for load control and you'll be at the mercy of your tuning guy. Shame because diagnostics are interesting and I would almost certainly learn something.

TTQS

sorry, cant post my ME7L config as my laptop is dead and ive left the psu at work :(

however, i'll post asap if you cant figure it out from the readme. The stock HN is in the original files section already. If you use the GUI it's even simpler.

I have to say though, with your mods you really would save a shit load of time and end up with a better tune if you spent a day on a dyno with a skilled tuner.

BTW
this log that i did was @ 14-15 psi
so maybe it's the reason why the maf reading are low ?
if i had 30 psi of boost the values should be higher or the same ?
and can it be that a bad maf cause this problem ?
any way i must do a log with disconnected maf

If the MAF sensor is faulty or fouled, you'll read less air mass flow than actual so you would run lean so you would be down on power too. I understand that if you disconnect the MAF sensor, the ECU will run on modelled air mass flows so will also be down on power.

I presume your tuner has rescaled the MLHFM table appropriately because of the different diameter MAF housing you are using? I suppose with the TT225 MAF sensor and housing, you can just copy the table straight across from that ECU. I don't think that would account for such a large discrepancy between the theoretical mass flow on your hardware to what you're actually measuring.

I would remove and examine the MAF sensor first, clean it with brake & clutch cleaner than refit and try again. If it looks suspect, buy a replacement MAF sensor and try that. It's worth having a spare anyway.

TTQS

Fwiw, I've always cleaned my MAF with MAF cleaner or a good electronics cleaner. I've read that the harsher cleaners can mess up the MAF sensor. Who knows? I just know I don't use brake cleaner. Maybe that's a myth?

The only thing to avoid is any solvent that will leave a residue. Brake and clutch cleaners generally don't do that, but yes, electronics cleaner is ideal. I have a PhD in chemistry so I tend to know what ingredients to look out for  ;)

The older solvents such as trichloroethylene and methylene chloride are being phased out in favour of less carcinogenic and ozone-depleting compounds such as propan-2-ol (isopropanol or isopropyl alcohol), often with pentane or naphtha and a fluorinated short-chain hydrocarbon such as 1,1-difluoroethane, but a variety are used depending on the particular formulation.

Think about it... would you want a slippery residue left on your brake discs or pads?

TTQS

Makes sense. I don't have a PhD in chemistry, so I'll take your word for it ;D I know here we have the expensive MAF cleaner, or you can get the much less expensive electronics cleaner.

You made a good point though. Don't take chances with chemicals and expensive electronic components. Formulations vary from country to country.

TTQS

update
disconect the maf sensor and did some cruising and wot- car run even leaner at wot
i just ordered new maf sensor and waiting till it's came
when i'll have the new maf i'll go the my tuner and i hope the car get better
just curious- if i'll read my ecu on the bench- can i open the .bin file and edit it or it still be protected file and unreadable ?

for maentime i downloaded the ME7Logger and found .bin file for my ecu (032hn) it's not that complicated as i thoght
but there is so much variables and i dont understand which is what, i started with the file that you attached (TTQS)
and edit it a lil bit
the labda actuel and Desired are the wideband write ?
Fuel Mass Relative what does it show ?
Ambient Pressure same qustion ?
Cylinder Charge Relative ?

and tnx again for the help

If you're used to using VagCom then you can see which variables are equivalent to which measurement groups from the 1st attachment. These are also generated by ME7L / ME7Info.

I've also attached the cfg I use for general logging.

changing injectors and afr will get you in trouble without proper KRKTE and TVUB adjustment. You said you run 3bar fpr before with 550cc... what is it now with the 660s you have?

As arule of thumb, the larger the injector, the more time it needs to open. Also, when rising FPR pressure, the injector also need more time to open. That's two "more time to open" in your case with the changes you've made.

finaly i had time to make some adjustments
i changed the KRKTE to:  0.046953

and TVUB
7.9552     9.9968    11.9680    14.0096    15.9808
1.0935     0.7334     0.5174     0.4374      0.3920

on 3BAR FPR the values on block 32 are:

5.1    -4.7

idle is jumpy
and still i have same problem at wot
the O2 lambda adding fuel from low RPM to the end
and on the end of the gear car goes way lean
i have log that i made from 4th gear @ 1bar~

630cc
walbro
3076 ar82
maf
W/M injection