NefMoto

Hi, I am making some step by step changes in my file for my 1.8T 150hp engine. Below will be my screenshot of my changes. Show me what you think for stage 1.

Load timing change methods:
 
Full load request 160% @ 2,000RPM then very low decrease going down to 156% @ 3,000RPM, then decreasing more rapidly towards 136% @ 4,250RPM and down to 108% @ 6,000 RPM (will show graph below)

Timing change methods:

I changed in 0.25, 0.50, 0.75, and 1.00 (rarely) at some low load areas. I went from left to right, increasing about 0.50 most commonly then about 0.75 at higher RPMS between 4500-5500. I did higher increases +1.00 +1.25 at low load areas from 65% and lower. After I was done left to right, I went from up to bottom to make sure everything is smoothed out. (This was NOT a percentage change, I went there one by one to make sure everything is smooth and reasonable.)

So tell me your expert opinions, maybe I am utterly wrong. I hope I am getting this correct. Thanks! Screenshots below!

I just can tell you that in this way is very bad, why you changing the advance on low load and on the cruise area of the car ? i can recommand only on the 80% pedal and up ,

Ped% is not the correct variable for that axis. You're looking at load% not pedal.

I know very good on what i looking, i gave him example how it should be , i gave him idea how he should thing , leave crsuise stock,

Yes it is load %.. what u on about?

Just the fact that you think changing cruise timing makes someone bad, makes yourself look bad. I am looking for expert feedback not salty feedback. Get off of this thread.

Your load seems pretty conservative in mid to high RPM, any reason for this? :)

I thought maybe I can add more timing while keeping boost conservative; do u think i should keep it a tad bit higher? What do you think about my timing changes method though?

Adding timing in whole range like that shows that you have no idea what you are doing.
The only way to modify timing in non-knock limited area is on a dyno. Stick to changing only timing at the higher load cells, extend the map above 150 load.

And how would you do it on a dyno?  Can it be done on a road?

Increase advance until you no longer make more power.

you really cant without a dyno. some say maf readings but this wont stand true when adjusting timing. fats? besides that a rolling road is the only way i know how

Injector IDC? 

when you advance ignition angle, does injection period increase?

I worded that poorly.

I'm thinking if you no longer make any more power at a given advance/load, the load will start to increase and IDC will increase with it. 

Theorycraft is great, practice is something else.
A slight change in headwind will make more difference than the timing.

Tuning the part-throttle timing to MBT is only doable on a dyno with an emulator (or some other means to offset the ignition angle in real time).

I know, I thought it would just be theorycraft.  Obviously most of us don't have that luxury, I was just trying to think outside the box.

Thanks! :)

How does it show that though? I am using common sense and common knowledge and only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising? I went from 0.25 increases at low load low rpm  to max 0.75 at high rpm. Shoulnt make a big different and imo its safe right?

No. More timing does not automatically mean more power or better fuel economy. You want better economy, use less throttle.

In any case, how will you know without a dyno?

And you ignored prj's comment about headwind.

"common sense and knowledge" which you have none of.
Do yourself a favor, pick up a book about the inner workings of internal combustion engines and read about timing and MBT, then you will understand how goddamn ridiculous "only increasing by small increments to get some more low down torque and maybe more economy while cruising?" sounds.

All non knock-limited area is already tuned to MBT from factory on an engine dyno. Adding timing will lose torque and fuel economy.
The only time you need to modify timing is when the compression ratio has changed, and then you need a dyno to get anywhere. Automatically adding timing everywhere will once again make it worse.

The sad thing is that most of the so called "tuners" have no idea about this. MORE to every map is better right? It must be better? And if not too much it must be safe right?
NO, it's not better and your tune is shit when it's done with that reasoning. Simple as.

Okay... well you don't have to get that salty though. I want to try this as a hobby for my car, so be more polite when talking to someone that is wrong.

So you're saying adding timing makes no difference in most occasions? I really haven't seen someone say that before. I guess I was wrong with low load changes. But ur wrong when u say u cant edit timing without a dyno, yes you can, trial and error and safe changes. And btw whats wrong with "pros" telling "noobs" to "go read a book about internal combustion engines" even if they make the smallest mistakes lol. Doing that is just arrogant and cocky. Anyway i dont wanna spark drama, I just wanted other peoples advice and not to be attacked...

This is your problem.
You are pointed out your mistake, and you continue spouting your bullshit.
Re-read what I wrote. You don't even know what non-knock limited is or what MBT is.
What kind of trial and error are you talking about in non-knock limited area? What is your "error"? How do you know you made something better? Worse? You don't. The only way to know is instantaneous torque readout on dyno. End of story.
Knock limited area is different story, of course you don't need dyno to tune that - as I said already.

I am as polite or impolite as I want to be. I usually have a pretty low tolerance to bullshit and point it out when I see it, and you very much deserve it.
There is a very big difference between people who don't know anything, but are willing to learn, and between people like you, who don't know anything but think they always know better.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall - you have zero knowledge about tuning, you have zero argumentation, but you repeat some regurgitated crap over and over again without understanding what you are saying.
Stop screwing with your ECU, take a book about internal combustion engines READ IT, so you understand how the very basic principles of the engine work, such as what ignition timing does how it affects ignition efficiency, what flame speed is, how it relates to mixture, how mixture affects temperature, how timing affects temperature and so on.
You have NO idea about any of this, yet you are screwing around with digital engine control. This is not a computer game, it is a complex apparatus that produces explosions at a rate of 10000 every minute at 5000 rpm, and you have no understanding at all of it, yet you are trying to poke it. You are not going to get any better of it by reading forums or this forum. This forum is about engine control. To modify engine control you need to know WHY it even exists in the first place and what it does and WHY. You know, a foundation to build on.

I didn't say i don't want to learn. I admit I am new to the software tuning. But you cant tell me to read about how ICEs work. I have read multiple times and have all the knowledge I need. The problem with you is you try to relate "books about internal combustion engines" directly to other peoples problems... they obviously don't teach you about knock limited or non knock limited area nor do they teach you if you can tune part throttle without a dyno or not. So just be more explainable when you talk instead of jumping at people like that. I understand what youre saying now and it does make sense. Thank you.

@prj

I have a question, why does the Timing 2 (VVT) have such higher timing values? They are increased by 2 or even 3 degrees. How does it work that way? Due to the changes in valve operation?

Because during overlap the dynamic compression of the cylinder charge is somewhat lower compared to the volume of air ingested.