NefMoto

Hope I'm posting this in the right place.

Long-time lurker, almost-first-time poster who's been slowly figuring things out .. I think.   I'm trying to get this setup dialed in, but I'm not sure I'm looking at the right things in TunerPro or heading in the right direction in adjusting things.  Maybe someone can give me some guidance in what to look at or suggest something I'm doing wrong?  Long post to try and give as much information up front as I can.  

The engine is an AEB from a 1998 Passat, rebuilt to run counter-clockwise and installed in a high-roof 1975 VW camper with the Passat 012 gearbox. Other than the reverse-rotation it's mechanically stock -- pistons, cams, head, intake manifold, turbo, intercooler, compression ratio -- aside from an aluminum diverter valve, and the only change to the AEB's wiring was an ICM delete and the use of newer 4-pin coils (bolt-down type).  It's been running well for a couple of years, there's no issue from the reverse-rotation setup -- I've had several multi-day trips into Canada and down into California since the original conversion along with a lot of daily-driving use.  The pipe between the MAF and turbo is a hair longer than stock, also the hose between intercooler and TB is a little longer than stock, but that's it.  I've swapped the ECM, harness, TB, VVT chain tensioner and MAF for the system from an '02 Passat AWM engine (ME7.5 wideband with DBW, ECM 4B0906018CM), re-pinned the crank and knock sensor connectors to use the AEB parts.  Using things I learned here, I've successfully reflashed the ECM to a 4B0906018CH bin with IMMO off, turned off LDP and SAI (AEB head, no port) and have it running generally pretty nicely with the new electronics.  N75, N80 and N249 are all enabled and connected like they should be (N112 went away with SAI), the MAP sensor is in an adapter in the pipe between the intercooler and TB -- the AEB intercooler didn't have a spot for it.

I think I'm having issues with the fueling and possibly the injectors, and I'm second-guessing myself because this is all new to me .. though I am learning and am apparently not as dumb as I thought I was.  :D  

I'm running the AEB's 4bar FPR because I have it.  From the charts I've seen, AEB injectors (0280150447) are 210cc/min, AWM injectors (0280156065) are 282cc/min, both measured @ 3bar.  The AWM injectors are too short so I didn't use them.  Initially I ran the stock AEB injectors and bumped KRKTE to 0.13493 from the stock 0.10478, which is what MasterJ's "ME7 TUNER WIZZARD" Excel program calculated for 210cc/min injectors.  That seemed much better than it was with those injectors before I changed KRKTE,  but I still got lean DTC's sometimes .. and I'm also concerned I might be maxing out those injectors, but I just don't know.  I also have a set of longer EV6-style injectors that physically fit, flow tested as 367cc/min @ 3bar.  No idea what P/N is because it was ground off, they were supposed to replace 0280150450 which are (EDIT, typo) 378cc/min.  I put them in the other day, changed KRKTE to the calculated 0.07721 and from watching VCDS it was running rich, with pre-cat O2 sensor control (measuring block 33) in the 23-28% range at idle.  Adjusting KRKTE lower into the 0.072xx range made it worse, adjusting it the other way improved things, and I most recently bumped KRKTE to 0.08458 which got the block 32 LTFTs to 5.8% at idle and 0.0% at partial throttle, with reasonable-seeming pre-cat O2 sensor control values at idle (3-7% range), but I'm back to getting some lean DTC's, and while driving the pre-cat O2 control values go into the negative by like -12% to -18%, which worries me.

Am I overthinking things about block 33 being high at idle?  Am I on the right track with using these injectors and adjusting KRKTE?  Should I go back to the AEB injectors and put KRKTE where it was working well and adjust from that point?  Are there other injectors that would fit the AEB manifold/fuel rail that would be better to use?  I'm not looking to tune this thing for major HP or torque -- it's a slab-sided box on wheels, the handling gets pretty hairy above 80MPH, and even the AEB's 150HP is about twice what it came with.

I've got some logs in CSV format generated by VCDS I could dump if they'd be helpful.  I haven't gotten ME7 Logger working on my laptop yet, and I didn't realize until literally just now that there's a logging function in NefMoto.  Maybe I AM as dumb as I thought I was. :D  At least I don't have to rely on this car as my daily.

Any guidance or suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks!

AEB injectors are too small to anything, also you need to mod TVUB to get you fueling right on idle.
Also take a look on block 32 on VCDS,
Good idea would be to triger off lamda adjust, by setting NOLRA to 5. When you try to mach injectors. All you have described on S4wiki

Get ME7L working. Until then, you can continue to at least get KRKTE and TVUB dialed with only trim information.

See also http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9740.0title=

I suspected the AEB injectors are too small, which is why I'd already started looked at moving away from them.  Not quite understanding what to do with TVUB at this point -- more reading is clearly required.  Hopefully it's not something where I need data from the injector manufacturer, since there's no usable markings on the injectors I have on-hand to even know what they are.  I've been looking at block 32.  The most recent values (since putting KRKTE to 0.08458ms) were 5.8%/0.0%, 5.6%/-1.6%, 5.6%/2.3%, gathered during mostly in-town surface street and slow-n-go freeway driving, and I've been careful to note block 32 after every drive .. figuring that there's no such thing as too much data.

I'll see if I can get ME7 Logger working and log more data with that.  I'm also going to stick a gauge on and see what the fuel pressure actually is -- I'm using a stock Vanagon fuel pump, and found some recent talk in the Vanagon world suggesting that the stock pump output pressure is inadequate for a 1.8T, though there's still arguing about that going on.  I wouldn't mind upgrading to a Bosch 044 or Walbro GSL392 fuel pump if I have an excuse so I can justify it to my wife...


Honestly, would it be worth continuing down this road and trying to adjust for the injectors I have?  Or should I look into something like USRT's "un-spacers" with the stock AWM injectors, put KRKTE back to stock and call it good enouhg?  This chassis isn't at all designed for anything that resembles handling, so I'm really not looking to get more power from the engine.  Just needs to run and drive and not blow up from fuel starvation. :D

Yea i'd get known good injectors that you have the right specs for.

Yeah, I hear you.  The mystery injectors were flow checked by the local Dr. Injector franchise and measured as 36 lb/hr on their ASNU tester, and read 15.8-15.9 ohms on my multimeter.  That's all I have for specs on these, and the seller has been unresponsive as far as getting more specs on these .. or even what the actual part number is.  ::) 

Is there anyplace online that has data useful for TVUB listed?  Probably a stupid question...

So I teed a gauge into the line between the pump and fuel rail, did some static and drive testing, and barely hit 3 bar at the highest.  Pump was Bosch 0580463016, commonly sold as a stock replacement for Vanagon, VW Bus, Beetle and 914 (among other vehicles), and the specs I found at www.bosch-motorsport-shop.com.au -- the only place I found actual flow/pressure specs -- list it as 75l/hr @ 2.5bar .. no wonder.  Replaced it with a Walbro GSL392, 255l/h @ 6.0bar and a fresh filter, so I should have no more issues on the fuel delivery front.  I've also ordered injector "unspacers" so I can use the new Bosch 0280156065 injectors that came with my ECM and harness in the AEB manifold.  Those injectors have known specs, which I hope will make future tuning easier.

I also realized that I was interpreting the LTFTs and STFTs backwards, meaning that I'm still a dumbass.  ::)

Since I'm waiting on the unspacers, I've spent some time screwing around with the mystery injectors while they're installed.  I know it's not the right way do things -- like I said I'm screwing around so please don't yell at me for it -- I copied TVUB values from a TT225 bin, my thinking being that those injectors have flow specs close to what my mystery injectors were measured at.  I did several runs over the last couple of days with those values, logging STFTs and LTFTs as best I could with VCDS because I still hadn't gotten ME7Logger working, and VisualME7Logger just crashes.  By changing KRKTE and leaving TVUB alone, I've gotten to where the STFTs at idle are lean in the 8-16% range, off-idle STFTs richen into the -3% to -12% range, and LTFTs of 2.3%/-2.3% after a good hour of varied driving that included some freeway pulls on a grade up from 55 to 75MPH, which was the best I could manage because of traffic.  Current KRKTE is 0.08636 (prior KRKTEs "on the way" to this were 0.07814 and 0.8048), TVUBs are 1.74 1.14 0.811 0.60 0.44 (from 1.878 1.085 0.685 0.437 0.267), and it certainly *feels* better now than it has since the new harness/ECM replaced the DBC AEB stuff.

Like I said, I'm just screwing around and I know this isn't the right way to do things so please don't yell at me, but I think this screwing around gave me a slightly better understanding of how things work -- I'm one of those people who can read up and work things out on paper just fine, but still need some hands-on experience for it to start "clicking" in my head.  I've got the stock-tune modified bin (SAI/LDP delete) stored safely so I can flash it back when I pull the mystery injectors out.  Plus this screwing around with car stuff sure beat the hell out of spending the last couple days chasing my wife and her adult daughter around the mall, the outlet mall, the restaurants, the museum, the zoo etc. while her daughter has been in town visiting.

No shame in doing fueling tuning with only stft/ltfts, but ideally you should do it with ltfts disabled.

I'll look into disabling LTFTs before my next round of driving/logging.  I've got ME7Logger working but haven't had time to play with anything for a couple of days, and it'll be a couple more days before I have a chance to do anything.

Thanks for being patient with me.  ;D

hey, I compiled my XDF for tunerpro off of packs that I found on here and then cross checked to verify. Been working on my own car as well so If you have specific questions I am more then happy to help you out where I can and exchange contact info. Im running an AEB setup on the 018ch ecu. I am using ev14 injectors however and found a good starting guideline for the TVUB and then have been roughing it in with LTFT disabled and then adjusting tvub values by the increments in short term. It has been proving successful at this point.

I have had success with pulling some of the maps froma BFV file and using them with my setup but I do have a larger turbo. Mine responded very well to the timing tables that are listed within that file. 

I am curious as to where NORLA is in our file. I have not encountered or ran into that yet. I have been using LAMFA and KFLbts for fueling thus far.

Post your ECU bin, maybe I have some XDF and map pack for that ECU

Stock AWM injectors are in with the un-spacers, KRKTE and TVUB put back to stock for the 018CH ECM.  I ran it like that some and while the numbers look better and it feels smoother overall, it's had sort of a "lurchy" or "stumbly" feel in the lower RPM that I was rather unhappy with.   

My intake cam is about 10*deg retarded from factory (valves open at 8*deg instead of 18*deg, closing similarly altered) because that's as close as a reverse-rotation 1.8T build gets unless you screw with the chain sprocket on the intake cam.  With that in mind, I had a hunch that the VVT was connected to the feel I was getting, turned off VVT off in the BIN and reflashed and the "lurchy" "stumbly" lower RPM feel is gone.  Purrs and drives smooth like it did with the AEB harness.  Happy times.  The VDO boost/vac gauge I have tapped into the FPR vacuum line shows boost topping out around 14-15PSI now, which has me a little concerned.  It used to max out a hair under 10PSI with the AEB system on the motor, but I was never able to get full WOT .. so maybe that boost pressure is right and I just never hit it before because I wasn't get WOT?  Vac at idle is around 18-20in/hg...

Going to run logging for a few days over the next week, but I'm not going to have much time look at it and play with the tune for a while because we're leaving town Sunday for a couple of weeks.  Mostly just posting to keep this thread updated on the current status of my mess.  ;D

Howling, here is the XDF that I have made that is Fairly complete for 018CH utilizing the 360101 software.

I have done same conversion from AJL to Passat Me7.5. I switched temporarly to awm intake to fit AWM and now BAM injectors. I can share 360101 kp file later in evening.

I've been using your R2 XDF with some scalars copied in from another 018CH XDF I had, didn't know there was an R3.  Thanks!

Added in to the R2 I've been using are UADPUMX, UADPLMX, CLASLV, CLASLVE, CLALSH, CLAHSV , CLALASH, CLALASH2, CLAHSH, CLAHSHE, CLAHSH2, CLATEVE, CLALDPE, MNAXF, MSLBAS.  Dunno if I actually *need* to have them or touch any of them, but they seem correct and it seemed worthwhile to add them for the sake of completeness.  I also swapped in the ESKONF and ESKONF2 tables from the other XDF because they're set up to display values in hex and have a nice description of which byte does what.  I'll attach it here so you've got it.

I spoke a little too soon on happy times, I think.  I hit nearly 20psi of boost on an onramp earlier this afternoon -- not while logging unfortunately -- and it seemed to go into sort of a limp mode, down on boost down on power barely getting out of it's own way.  The running cleared up after a couple of miles and it ran normally after that.  I don't have a functioning CEL but no new codes were stored.  Dunno what that's all about, it's a stock K03, stock N75 valve and I have the lightest spring installed in the alloy diverter valve...

Current bin, pulled fresh from the ECM this morning

And a log file from this morning, from startup through some surface streets, some freeway, back to surface streets.  Also, for whatever it's worth the LTFT's after running around all morning were 5.6% idle / 3.9% partial throttle...

Alright, I've getting back on this after a couple weeks in Prague seeing the sights, eating excellent food, drinking lots of beer and looking at all the Škodas running around.  =D

Had some leakage at the injector spacers because I'd put the wrong o-rings on them, fixed that.  Billet injector cups showed got here while I was out of town so those were installed at the same time, and miraculously the OG plastic cups just unscrewed with no drama and only minor breakage on one.  Stuck the other three on the shelf for "might need someday" use on another project.  Also fixed a slight vacuum leak on the hose from the N249 to the vacuum reservoir, and put a new N75 valve on because I've been suspicious of it for a while and had a "spare" 058906283C on the shelf.

I put together a fresh bin and THIS TIME wrote down everything I did so I wouldn't have to remember.  ::)  KRKTE and TVUB left alone for now (stock AWM injectors).
ESKONF is AA FF 00 F0 FF FB 3F.  Along with the changes to ESKONF, zeroed CLALDPE & CDLDP to disable the LDP, zeroed CDSLS & MSLBAS to disable SAI along with zeroing out the MSLUB table.  Also zeroed CDNWS and edited the KFNWSE, KFNWKHE and KFNWKRE tables to be all 18's to disable VVT for now.  I can always put them back when I'm sure the VVT tensioner is working correctly, possibly with some tweeks for the 10*deg retarded intake cam timing I have from the reverse-rotation build.  Not sure if I'll bother, I was happy running without VVT for two years on the AEB harness.  Still need to figure out how to get rid of the P1523 and P1650 DTCs caused by the complete lack of CANBUS on a 1975 VW, and maybe even figure out how to eliminate the P1606 caused by the lack of ABS.  ;D

Going to do some runs this weekend with ME7L going.  Suggestions on what to log?

http://files.s4wiki.com/ME7L-ecu/8D0907551M-typical.cfg

Managed to do some logging the other day, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at here, and it keeps timing out when I try to attach files.  Hope this works:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=70674587326928733217

try zipping it before you upload, not gonna dload that

Those are useless.

floor it from 2500 to redline in a single gear.

I'll probably have to get out in the boonies or up in the middle of the night to do that I think, but I'll give it a go as soon as I can.  There's two Walmarts, a Costco, a Target, a Trader Joes, a couple of Whole Foods-type places and a few other giant "everything" stores within like two miles of my house, so all the roads and freeways are clogged up with suburban Karen-types going around panic-buying everything they can lay their hands on...

Thanks for being patient.

You can do it in 2nd if you must. for 90% of boost control and base fuel tuning you really only care about spool and 2/3 of the way to redline.

redline for fine tuning BTS, high rpm timing, etc.

So my wife and I took turns the last few weeks, first her then me, being laid up sick with "probably mild COVID-019" so I wasn't able to get out and try to run better/more useful logs until yesterday morning and some more non-logged driving later in the day. I think the log with the earliest timestamp might be the most useful of the three because I didn't have to slow before getting to 4000rpm but not sure.

I did have time to think on things some, and while I think I understand that the KFNWSE, KFNWKHE, KFNWKRE etc. tables are the degrees before/after TDC that the intake valves open with the VVT, does that have any effect on ignition and injector timing?  Or are those entirely separate with the cam, crank and knock sensor inputs?   It came to mind mostly because my intake valve opening events are (VVT off) at 8deg instead of (VVT off) at 18deg from the reverse-rotation build, and it isn't mechanically "fixable" without monkeying with the chain sprocket on the intake cam.  If those values do impact the ignition and injector timing calculations, would it be better in my case to change them to reflect when the intake valves actually open relative to TDC?  I spent a fair amount of time while sick staring at the funktionsrahmen trying to understand that and figure it out for myself, but between being sick and being a n00b ... I'm kinda lost.  ::)

Stock timing is fine for most things. Don't mess with it.

It is conservative at high load, thats about it. You're overthinking things again. At most maybe 4 or 5 cells need to be changed. At your boost levels (stock) they are fine as is.

The non WOT logs are useless. Don't bother posting those until you're ready to do part throttle tuning (and generally you wont, stock is fine for 99% of part throttle)

Finally, I'm unclear on what your goals are. If you aren't going to change boost request, its pretty pointless to do any logging unless you're trying to diagnose an actual problem.

I'm not sure if there's an actual problem or not -- that's what I'm trying to figure out.  By and large it generally runs pretty good, but there's some .. weird .. stuff going on that I'm trying to understand and sort out.

It runs roughly and records many misfires across all four cylinders after flashing or clearing codes, until it's been run long enough to adapt.  It's "stutter-y" and hesitates from off-idle up to around 15-1600RPM, more when cold but even when warmed up to some extent.  It sort of bogs and falls on it's face when I mash the pedal to WOT no matter what gear or engine RPM.  It seems to hit some sort of a "limp mode" if the boost hits more than about 15-16PSI as read on a VDO gauge that's tee'd in between the manifold and FPR; after it hits that "wall" it's very noticeably down on power but clears up with 10-15 minutes of driving.  Haven't had that happen and been able to get the computer hooked up before it goes away, but there's no code set.  In 4th and 5th gear it doesn't want to go much past 3000RPM no matter what I do, even on flat ground. 

I never had any of that with the AEB harness/ECM on the motor.  No misfires/misfire codes, no KS codes, good power and pull all the way up to 5000+RPM on flat ground no matter what gear, boost never went above 10-12PSI -- which has me suspect something related to the WB conversion, ether the AWM harness I used (though I've checked it over it wire-by-wire multiple times), something "not right" in the ECM/tune, or something that was swapped or added to work with the harness that's not functioning correctly.  I changed the MAF, injectors (which we know had me going round and round for a while .. because I'm a dumbass), throttle body, ECM, harness, and changed the upstream O2 sensor for a wideband. Added the DBW pedal from an '03 Jetta 1.8T, added the MAP sensor between the intercooler and TB, swapped the cam sensor ring, re-pinned the harness plugs for knock and crank sensors to match the motor because the sensors are all fairly new. I added the N249 valve between the intake and the N75 (N112/SAI off in ESKONF) but otherwise left all the existing vacuum, evap and vent hoses alone.  Same ignition coils as before (I had an ICM delete), same turbo/wastegate, same intercooler, same alloy diverter valve, same 4-bar FPR.  In the course of this thread I've upgraded the fuel pump to ensure good pressure and volume, and since January replaced the N75 again, this time with a new "C" version.  SAI deleted (no port in head), brake booster pump deleted and off in ESKONF.  Harness is from an A/T car, no clutch switch but the brake switch is installed and wired up and the ECM coded for manual.

I'm just trying to explain where I'm at in as much detail as I can think of.  I hope I'm not muddying things up too much doing so.



I wasn't planning to mess with the timing, just wondering if the difference between actual intake cam timing and "expected" cam timing values in the VVT tables might be having an effect on timing, even with VVT turned off in the ECM.  I do have the VVT tensioner on the motor, but it runs much better with it turned off in the tune and unplugged.

I'll try and get some good WOT logs, but it might be tricky.  Oregon's been on a statewide partial lockdown for nearly a month with no end date in sight, and I live right in Portland where there aren't many good places to drive the way I need for that other than the freeway, unless I get way way out of town.  With my health still not being even 80% yet, I don't know if I can get my wife to go along with me getting very far from home for a couple of weeks no matter what the reason.

Stick with the basics, get idle trims right, make sure it doesn't misfire during warm up or just sitting. then do the same for part throttle. You don't need to worry about anything except preventing/solving all DTCs (yes all of them) get fuel trims to zero, and dont get ANY misfires. literally nothing else matters at the moment. Not boost, not timing, VVT (seriously dude, are you really sweating that at the moment?) none of that. You don't need a lot of room for this on the road.

Fix a single issue at a time. Make a single change in the ECU at a time. Don't fight every single issue simultaneously.

I'm guessing your fueling is completely fucked up because you didn't get any of it right.

When you are ready for WOT, you still dont need any real clear long road unless you have a very fast car that runs through 2nd too fast. It sounds like you have a POS so there is literally no way you're going to run out of space or not have a long enough pull in just 2nd.

In any case, there are a ton of hidden problems you may have with this conversion; not sure what your motivation for the swap was, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.

why do you have the n249 between the intake and the n75 when it goes between the intake and the diverter? Anyone else catch that?

Good catch that is an odd routing

IF you have the vvt turned off in the tune, go to all the NWSOLLE tables at set them all to 18. That way its solid state timing and if something weird happens it doesnt bounce between KFZW and KFZWOP or KFZW2 and KFZWOP2.  Its what I did when I was working on mine. Untill I had everything else all finished out, I also went and capped duty cycle with DRL and then chased boost stuff when I was positive fueling was sorted.

I would be happy to send you the updated version of my file privatley for you to try, but don't want to throw it on forum untill I get a little more progress done on it, but current does have more then you are working with on my v2.