NefMoto

Hello

I have an Audi S3 8L 225Bhp (BAM), mods are, Badger5 Tip and cone filter, Forge recirc DV, PCV and n249 removed, silicon turbo outlet hose/breathers.  Standard apart from that.

The tuning file I have done is just a mirror of the BFV engine file with some additional fuelling via LAMFA as advised on a post on this forum.

I have done some logging today and have some questions about what to be concerned about and how to fix it.

Firstly, I am not making the requested boost. My first thought was a boost leak but you can see that from 3000rpm it makes the req boost fine before tailing off, however the wastegate duty cycle seems to correlate with req boost so perhaps there is a small boost leak? No doubt if there is it will be very hard to find if it only occurs at 16psi. 

The afr tracks pretty well, but there are a couple of lean spikes and im not sure if this is acceptable or if action needs taken on the map?

Fuel injector duty cycle has a dip at 6000 rpm, could this be an injector on its way out?

The log shows ignition retard on cyl 2 and none for the other 3, im not sure how to analyse this, any thoughts?

I have data from another 3rd gear pull, no dip in FIDC at 6000 rpm, but actual boost exceeding req boost and a corresponding afr spike, again im not sure how to analyse this as I had expected the data to be very similar from both pulls (attached as run2)

Any input or advice would be much appreciated, thanks :)

Sorry forgot the run2 log, its not all the way to redline as I ran out of road

Hey overall looks good! I would say Boost Desired is too high at the higher revs, that why you have the gap widening, although you could easily get 20 psi earlier and therefore you may achieve higher boost around the 5K rpm mark?? PLease note, I'm still fairly new to this though!

I have BAM 225 also but with downpipe and decat. I have a much more aggressive tune (stage 2 ish) and getting around 22 psi peak, but can't maintain for long...by 5.5Krpm its around the 18 psi mark - Ko4 just can't maintain high boost levels after 5K rpm. Reckon you're probably more than ok with stock injectors at this power. I had mine up to 95% duty cycle at 22 psi before switched to 550cc and uprated fuel pump (not essential though).

I think my MAF must be under-reading as mine only goes up to 205 g/s whereas yours is up past 220 I think! Maybe you have a more healthy engine...

Thanks for the comments!

I have been reading up on K04 boost profiles and compressor maps etc, am I right in saying that the LDRXN curve should be more like the dotted line on the attached screenshot?

Yeah the dotted looks pretty much perfect in my opinion! Just got to raise it all a bit now (proportionally) and see what she can do  ;D ;D Don't take my advice though, I'll probably have bent a rod by end of this year lol

That is plain incorrect.

It is capable of quite a bit of boost except that

1) you need to tighten the wastegate to a point that part throttle drivability suffers w/o some throttle plate angle tuning
2) you may be way out of the useful efficiency island
3) you may run out of injector
4) if you are running pump gas, you will be timing limited

Please avoid posting pure conjecture.

A single glance at the k04 compressor map will tell you it is physically capable of quite a bit of boost (assuming you have the air flow to drive it)

I altered the LXDRN curve a bit and did some more logging today, would really appreciate some critique of the logs to see if there is any scope for optimising, specifically the afr spike around 3000 rpm, can this be adjusted out? Also not sure if the wgdc looks normal up the higher end of the rev range.

Thanks  :)

That actually looks pretty damn good.

You might want to add a bit more fuel down low (depending on octane); you may be able to add timing if you are richer and keep EGTs a bit more under control at the same time.

Thanks very much for the reply nyet, a relief to hear that! Being a noob I don't really know what good looks like.

Would I add fuel using the KFLF table? I think im right in saying this is a correction/offset for the target afr, and because it's all set to 1 as standard it effectively does nothing to interfere. So by adjusting that I can get the afr to track more accurately?

Any thought on how much I can play with the ignition? I'm unsure how to gauge that. I'm in the UK and use 97 or 99 RON fuel.

Happy to be directed to a thread for some independent learning, cheers!

 

S4wiki covers fueling pretty well

as for ignition, raise kfzw(2) in WOT areas until wkrm_x less than 3

p.s. why you have to add delimiters in tunerpro when there is pretty good folders available?

talking about request, which is LAMFA or BTS

Roger.

Is the afr spike at 3k nothing to worry about then?

Cheers!

Not yet, one thing at at time.. get request where you want it first, and see if you can get more timing out of the peak torque area.

Great thanks, will report back!

Hi Guys

Looking at making adjustments to the timing now, I have altered the fuelling and the boost slightly again and confirmed no KR is occurring, EGTs are all well below limits, car drives really smooth and pulls well with no dodgyness.  I have also refitted all the N249 pipework and valve (it was the previous owner that removed it) and I'm glad I did as it drives much better!

From the advice above regarding increasing timing at peak torque and from the s4wiki: ' odds are you can increase timing significantly at the last load line and after peak boost. You may even be able to bump timing at peak boost as well'

I am just looking for confirmation that I have the right idea, from the log graph I have marked what I think is the peak torque area, but after peak boost, and on the KFZW table I have highlighted the 8 entries I think I can then increase.

Assuming I'm on the right track with what to change, what is a safe starting point for the changes? Do I take all 8 entries and add 'x' to them? If so, what would 'x' be?

Thanks!

Yep, you're on the right track... post your full logs and I can take a peek time permitting.

Here is the latest log, im pretty sure everything looks good, a bit of guidance on how much ignition advance to try would be very much appreciated, cheers!

Till you knock then pullback a bit.

This

And i should add that looks pretty solid.

So, if I take the areas if the table I highlighted in a previous post, modify them by +6 maybe? Log again and check for knock retard, is that a good starting point?

Am I right in saying that nothing should explode as the car will protect itself via knock retard?

Yep.

I would say +6 is quite a lot.
And keep in mind of ignition advance and RPM effects.

Add 1.5 degrees in lower rpm range, 2.25 in mid-tohigh and 3 deg on high rpm range.
Then log. If you have no knock, repeat, log again. Back off timing in those places where it starts to knock.
You should tune it to not have any timing correction during short pulls. It is ok to have 1-2 knock events during the pull on a longer one, say 4th gear pull.

Doing +6 is pretty harsh, I wouldn't add that much at a time. Small steps, your engine will thank you for it.

Keep in mind KFZW/KFZW2 (KFZW2 active during inlet cam adjustment), while you still don't know what you are doing, it is smart to keep the factory curve, and just shift it.
Another thing is - don't run off the edge of the map, as in, your KFZW's last column should always be less than your maximum desired/actual load, so it retards timing when you have overshoot....
Keep in mind that boost and fueling affect timing, etc... I usually tune timing last.

obviously agree with everything above.

Really appreciate the advice guys, thanks! One final noobish question before I start editing the maps, do I perform the same adjustments (proportionally) to KFZW2 that I do to KFZW?

Sure, but only one of them is likely used in high load areas where you're doing the tuning (see NWS)

Log fnwue and you see where KFZW is used and where KFZW2 is used. KFZW is used when fnwue is 0 and KFZW2 is used when fnwue is 1.
FR function ZWGRU, subfunction ZW_NWS.

Do you recommend doing this logging first before applying and trying the changes to the ignition tables?

You need to type less and do more...

fnwue should be in your template by default. It's just as important as rl_w and nmot_w to understand where you are in the map.

Haha its 11pm here, don't worry the doing will happen soon!

Thanks again for the advice, will report back :)

I added timing per the advice above, and have attached the log.  I'm wondering if I'm not logging the correct field to properly display knock, either that nor I'm not sure how to interpret what I have.

On ecuxplot the field 'Ignitionretardcyl3' is I think showing a timing pull, would really appreciate some guidance on whether I need to pull the timing back a bit or if that is acceptable.

Cheers!

Yes you got some knock on cyl3, others are fine. You can still add more timing at lower RPM's.
You can also see average knock to see how much to pull from base map...

This ME7 variant does not have per-cylinder timing maps IIRC, so not much else to do.
It's meant so that KRA will take care of the differences.

So average ignition retard knock control is 0.75 after 5500 rpm, fnwue is 1 until 4750 rpm. Based on that should I pull 0.75 timing from KFZW after 5500rpm, and add some timing to KFZW2 before 4750 rpm? I'm thinking 0.5 or 0.75 degree increments are the best way to make adjustments now?

cheers

Yes, you are on the right track! It is good to see someone learning quickly.

Thanks haha, just very cautious as I don't want to blow it up!

Once ive repeated the process to get knock then dial it back etc, that would mean that timing is 'done'. Is there then anything else worth looking at bearing in mind that apart from a larger TIP and cone filter the car is standard?

cheers

I would avoid any cone filter crap.

If you want to do intake mods, you can cut holes in the bottom of your airbox. Open air element filters mess up MAF readings. TIP is unlikely to do much. Your next step is bigger turbo or a 2.7t :)

Doing anything with airbox is pretty much waste of time on these, the turbo is the main chokepoint.
Even the intercooler on them is half-decent for the boost they run.

And the problem with a bigger turbo is, that even with a GT28RS and like 1.7 bar with no knock - it already starts to bend the rods...

So really, the best thing is to just to do the remap as well as you can, and if you need more then you need to do a full on project car with engine build, intercooler, exhaust and turbo.

Unless spicy parts come up cheap and local I dont think I will be going too crazy really.

Is there any other optimisation to be done on the map once ignition is sorted? Or is fuelling/boost/ignition pretty much it for 'stage 1'?

I have not looked at all your logs, and ... I don't think I have time to.
But I always put a 4 bar FPR on these, because injectors run out before the turbo does usually for me.

So you can push the boost up to the point where the injector duty cycle is maxed (hence the 4bar fpr), but still be ok in terms of torque etc with standard rods?

Like knock with ignition, would EGT be the guideline for working out how much boost you can safely run?

Im pretty happy with where the car is now but its all really interesting, glad Ive got involved

You can run the turbo flat out after 4500-5000 rpm at 95% wgdc.
But you need bigger injectors or 4 bar fpr.

Is it worth working on IMX to fine tune the boost so that actual is as close to requested as possible?

Bigger turbo is always a god choise, but IIRC K04 coud make more boost. ;)

We need a compressor map.

BG

I have been working on getting requested boost and actual boost to align more closely, and also still looking at optimising ignition.

I have a couple of questions:

Regarding the ignition, in the KFZW2 table for below 4700rpm, is it worth advancing this into knock to then pull it back slightly? I have already added some advance and still not seeing knock retard. I have some knock above 5500 rpm which I will make adjustment for in the next upload.

Based on my boost logs, it is worth it or in fact possible to get requested and actual to align more closely? I have been making small adjustments to KFLDIMX and have reigned it in a bit so far.

Appreciate your thoughts, latest log attached (2 runs)

cheers!

yep


yep

bring imx closer to wgdc pre-lin or bring req boost up to actual.

Thanks, have made some changes, will report back after logging!

Just thought I would bump this thread with some feedback and another question.

Everything has been running really nicely with the car, I ended up doing about 15 logging runs and map changes tweaking the ignition timing and IMX tables and was very happy with the drivability and performance in the end!

The clutch has begun slipping a bit (its 100k miles old) so I thought I would use the opportunity to upgrade to a 3in downpipe and sports cat whilst the car is in bits for the clutch replacement.

My question is, what specific areas of the map would benefit from changes when the downpipe is in?

My initial thoughts are that the ecu should be able to handle things as far as increased spool time goes. But if there is a higher flow through the exhaust system does this mean I can request more boost higher up the rev range (i am on standard engine internals) and go through the ignition tweaking process again. Or will gains be minimal enough to make it a waste of time?

Cheers

I doubt any significant changes will be required.

egt propably bit lower
spoolup better
maybe a bit overshooting

be careful with stock internals