NefMoto

Hi all.
I'm waiting my garrett gt2871r with performance rating: 280 - 475 HP recommended displacement: 1,8 - 3,0L

compressor: inlet 53,1mm / outlet 71,0mm / trim 56 / 0,60ar
turbine: diameter 53,9mm / trim 76 / 0,64ar / internal wastegate (0,48bar)

Please help me with your advice about how much i must close the wastgate for my turbo make 1 bar boost at 3500-4000rpm.
I think i must have 95 values in IMX table before 3000rpm in all cells , correct , so that all the exhaust gases turn the turbine? LDRXN will be 170 at 3500 rpm and after will make 190to the finish cells
Many thanks in advance.

Sorry but my question is not about boost pid and linearissation. My question is about how much i close the wastegate for a GT2871r (ball bearing) to make boost sooner.It is not like a k04 how can spool sooner than gt28.I want to know if somebody obtained 1 bar at 3500 with a gt2871r and if must to close complete wastegate for a log period
Thanks.

Sorry but use PRJs quote to solve this.  Jam it shut at 95% and see when it makes boost.

Your question is 100% about PID and linearization.

You set up both to give you 95% while LDE is very large.

ok.....i need to explain my question in other mode: It is ok if i close the wastegate complete before 3000rpm for a gt2871r with ball bearings? it is ok to force it to make boost sooner or i'll destroy it?
thanks again for your advices to all , special to nyet and prj

You need to learn a lot lot more about how turbo engine work before try tuning it. This good-hearted advice, really

The odds of you 1) seeing surge and 2) knowing enough to prevent it via tuning are minimal.

Hi again to all.
I mounted my new garrett gt2871r on my car one week ago

turbo specifications:
Garrett Turbocharger GT2871R - 836026-21 / 743347-4 - 475HP - 0.64ar
compressor: inlet 53,1mm / outlet 71,0mm / trim 56 / 0,60ar
turbine: diameter 53,9mm / trim 76 / 0,64ar / internal wastegate (0,48bar)
- dual ball bearing (743347-4)
- dual ball bearing ceramic (836026-21)
- oil and water cooled bearing system
- internal wastegate with actuator
- Inconel-turbine wheel
I made a log today and it spool to late
I have 1 bar very very late
All parts from engine are in veru good conditions , sensors, maf, map, intake, inlet and exhaust.
What can it be: actuator must to be tight , or must make modification with 100% value after 2300 rpm in IMX or it is the turbo disadvantage because it starts charging very late?
Many thanks in advance to all.

PS: Attached the log and file!

Where did you get your turbo? By the copy and paste specs I want to say ebay or Ali.

I have a gtx2871 and I start making positive pressure at 2300, I have 1 bar at 3200 and 1.4bar at 3500.

Your log doesn't have RPM points so can't really see where its at, but it is down there. Your G/s is really low for a gt2871. 190 is stock turbo territory. You also start leaning out in the top when your getting desired of .826 lambda and actual is .89

I don't think you have an IMX problem, I think you have a bum turbo or a hardware setup. There is some tuning issues that are still there.

Sorry my friend but is a genuine garrett from an authorized dealer and cost 1200 euros.
Lear about lambda? is not a a tunning problem because my lamfa table is ok and bts was not activated , so please see the graphic. after 4250 i cut my log because the car started to no longer grip on the road and that's why the lambda went crazy.
So maybe you can learn more.
Do you said in 200rpm your boost increased 0.4 bar? HMmmmmm. Show me your imx and your LDR!
Maybe you can not read complete specification. The compressor wheels is like a gt30 - trim is 56!
Yes 190 load because for the moment i reduce it , i don't have forged rods in my engine, i work with stock AUM engine.
Only thing is maybe i must keep imx to 95-100% after 3000rpm or must to change the actuator.

PS:  nmot_w is there in the log!

My imx and drl will do you no good considering our setups will be differant. I have a built engine.

My turbo is a 56t 53.1/71.4mm compressor with .60 housing, exhaust is 53.85/47 76trim

I can share a video with you of how mine spoils if you wish.

Have you tried to muck around with KFVPDSD or KFVPDSE yet...... your .5bar spring is differant then stock .3bar and the mannerisms of how that turbo comes on is vastly differant then stock

it helps a lot  :D

Here is a snippet. Cruising I. Third gear at 5% throttle, tipping in to about https://youtu.be/GkVsJY-u_Pg

no one cruising at 4500+
and this difference 0.2 bar .. seriously?
even if he had a 1.2 bar wg spring it wont helps him with a spool problem

Please help me with good advices.
Thanks to all.

It’s not so much of the difference of .2 bar on the spring as it’s the mannerisms of the turbo. The stock tables are setup to where the throttle is unassisted from 2250 or so at 1.3 PR.... the turbo he has needs more assistance from throttle to get up into the curve... needs to descale his pressure axis for the table and then play with the values in the cell to have it go to .95 value at whatever rpm his turbo makes gate pressure (1.499 PR).    It’s in the s4 wiki under “tuning for wastegate cracking pressures”

In my video I was cruising at 2600rpm at start. I can dig the log out if necassary. When he gets the KFVPDSD and KVPDSE tables reinged in to where car is happy, spool can be dropped using lamfa and vvt with this turbo.

I have no reason to misinterpret or misrepresent my numbers when I’m trying to help the guy since he setup is quite similar to mine it seems.

It's a hardware problem
Also what's the reason youre running cam advance at full boost?

Hi Fukenbroken
Hardware problem? Please tell me is Turbo (too big) or actuator(too soft) or other hardware problem?
Turbo is new genuine Garrett and had only 150km from when i installed on my car.
Cam advanced is stock vvt from my file. I only increase a little advance on the final rows in KFZW and KFZW2
Many thanks again for your time

Today i made another log with other IMX settings and is less like yesterday
I attached the log and the imx table

ridiculous. why is your request maxed out when it is clearly stated over and over not to do that?

And you're not even in the ballpark for IMX

what exactly are you doing?

you're not even *logging* any of the PID variables, how can you get any idea whatsoever what you should set imx to?

Does any of this look ok to you?

You need to go back to basics, I'm not sure you understand any of this

You have 22° ignition during spool?  Lower that to something closer to DTC you will have better spool.  Also you can try with leaner AFR for faster spool
And you need a lot of more reading this forum, about boost PID and req load

Thanks for your answers.
NYET don't understand me wrong but i dont understand exactly your questions.
First i try to keep closed the wastegate with imx 95 values for my exhaust gas to enter only in turbin and not exit from wasteagte.
Second this not look ok for me, nut i have a difference between yesterday and today , yesterday i tried higher values in imx and the spool and request was greater than today.
Tommorow will put in log the PID var.

BlackT thanks you too.
I increased all ignition for spool because i think was good , but maybe i wrong. I'll put stock kfzw and kfzw2 in my file.
About AFR i'm very confused because i want to follow LAMFA because i made these
tabgts is set to 800
cwlambts = 0
fbstabgm is
700           820           860            900
0.0000   0.0000   1.0158   1.0158
and KFFDLBTS is set all values = 0

I don't know what happen after 5333 rpm when my afr not follow requested. Myeb the injectors not good? maybe the fuel pump is old and don't make its work?

Sincerly i think is a problem from a bad garrett genuine stock actuator with 0.4-0.5 bar spring.

Thanks again to all!

WTF? literally none of your post makes sense. I don't think you understand anything about how boost control works, please stop futzing with your file and learn how PIDs work before going any further. But I'm getting ahead of myself:

Start with my first sentence: why are you requesting so much boost? Stop right there. Go no further until your requested boost make sense. Put everything else back to stock except KRKTE/TVUB/MAF related maps.

I mean it.

Finally, your "actuator is bad" babble makes no sense given your WGDC btw. There is nothing in your log to indicate there is anything wrong with your WG or actuator ATM

Better spool with a horrible responce
Personally im doing 30+ if KR allows

I don't think this guy understood ANY of what he's talking about. I'd suggest paying someone who understands to do it all for him.

The thing is, all of the basics are actually pretty straight forwards; i've been able to explain EFI and FI fundamentals to people with almost no previous car knowledge.

What is odd is the noobs that come on and don't bother to do any background reading whatsoever, then pop in and make up a bunch of stuff. It's baffling.

Hi all.
I know how engine works and i think i understood how me7 works, but maybe i understood wrong and for this i wrote here.
NYET you told me my actuator is ok. I think it is too soft , because i adjust it yesterday and the turbo response faster and made request boost at 4000rpm , From here i must decrease IMX because is too much.
Nyet you told me "why is your request maxed out when it is clearly stated over and over not to do that?"
I want to have 1.5 after 4500 rpm. Where is the problem? it is what i want from my car and my turbo. Because the actual boost not follow requested it is a problem from hardware i think because like i told upstairs after i adjust my actuator the boost was increased without modify anything in my file.
Turbo can not make faster boost like i requested before 3500rpm, maybe here is NYET question why i request soo much boost.
Here if my turbo can not do this before 3500rpm , i'll decrease imx in that area. Correct NYET?
For the moment i left timing like it was.
Thanks again

I don't think anyone will help you with the kind of approach you're displaying here. You obviously DID NOT understand how ME7 works if everyone is telling you you're doing it wrong and you keep asking for a simple fix to your problems.

No
No


No,

Again, almost every single part of your post is 100% wrong. Not sure how you managed to avoid every single part of my advice, and claim you understand what you're doing.

1) don't request boost close to the pressure sensor limit (let alone past it). Why on earth do you insist on ignoring that advice?
2) Why would you reduce imx if you are underboosting?
3) Why would you reduce imx if you didn't even bother logging it?

Literally all of these topics are discussed in depth in the tuning page and everywhere else on this site.

WTF!
I told you what i do! Nobody help me with any concret argument.
I read and read and read and i understood in my way. If i wrong i don;t know. You told me i'm wrong
What i'm rong because i follow stag1 explanation from wiki
First increased ldrxn , iop and irl.
If the boost not follow the request who arrived from ldr can have torque intervention or hbd. They was disabled.
So the boost(in 3rd gear with pedal on the floor from 1500rpm , must a boost very very late ). So what i'm wrong if i put a question here like a noob for my prbolem
Somebody tell hardware problem ( i don;t tink so - maybe this is a turbo problem because works to late) other tell software problem.....You make me very confused.
Every post about boost in your site is wrote if want to increase boost make from ldr and after work with imx and drl.
Wrong again....? Today made other log with a lower ldrxn before 4000rpm, lower timing and leaner AFR., without any hardware modification.
IS very bad,  retards appears and the same low spool.
So all advices about afr and timing was bad.

No the ldr PID is entirely unreleated to torque intervention. Also, do not disable HBN. Just set it correctly for your turbo based on its compressor map, and forget it.
I can't figure out what that means

The very slow spool could be a lot of things, but you aren't at the point were we can say anything about that yet.

You need req boost high enough so that it results in 95% WGDC all throughout spool, until just actual boost is about to meet req, at which point WGDC should drop to just below the correct steady state DC. At no point, however, should requested pressure be within 2-300 mbar of 2550 unless you have the 5120 hack and a 3bar pressure sensor. If you want >1.4 bar tough luck. Period. Your sensor limit is exactly that; 1.4. Do not go past 1.3 or 1.4. End of story.

Please go no further until you understand exactly what I just said *and why*. Do not touch any other maps, period.


One thing at at time. Stop trying to fix multiple things at once

1) get your req boost correct (it isn't even close at the moment)
2) make sure wgdc is 95% during spool
3) make sure IMX and DRL are set high enough to prevent DC from being capped and underboosting, and low enough to prevent excessive overshoot

Don't worry about ignition or fuel yet.

The goal is to keep actuator valve closed (ldtvm 95+%) until actual boost mets req to spool turbo faster
And you almost did it in prev log. Now its totally ruined idk why

Now here is a basics
If you see
- n75 closed
- afr in a reasonable range
- ignition in a reasonable range
- wdkba 100%

then its a hardware problem. its an essential understanding how the engine works. how do you think any intervention affects? by the magic?
the only thing (and im pointed you previously) is the cam advance (nws) active too long.
also its a weird log size of a 4 sec run. again.

THANKS again for your answers.
I'll made modification with what you told me and i'll come back with new log.

Nyet I had wdc 95% and that's why I'm very confused, because the spool is very slow. Maybe i make the log wrong. I drive with car in 3rd gear at 1500rpm and there i push the acceleration pedal to 100% after i saw my boost is too high (you are right my boost exeed 1.5 bar and there retards appear and afr /lambda is too lean like requested).

FukenBroken , i decreased ldrxn before 4000rpm , decreased imx after 3500rpm at last line and  decreased kfzw in the spool area compared to yesterday file.
I made lamfa leaner at 90% and 99% than yesterday.
With these the DC is very bad , and retards apears.
wdkba  is strange in my log? the pedal is 100 but throtle angle is from88 to 100.
"the only thing (and im pointed you previously) is the cam advance (nws) active too long"
I modified wse on 1700 and 2000 rpm with 18 values as against -4 because to eliminate the vvt actuator error at low rpm. So you told me to put -4 value sooner to change cam?

You're the one who chose a gigantic turbo for a tiny 1.8t.

Next time pick a smaller turbo or use a proper motor, like a 2.7t

So this is the true answer , my turbo is big for that engine. I had and saw many people who had this turbo in my country on the same engine , other had gt35....I.ll reduce the boost at 1.3-1.4 bars like you said to me and will see the results.
Thanks again.

Possibly. Once you get everything else where it needs to be we can see what we can do about

1) deciding if your spool is expected
2) if it isnt right, trying to fix it

Today is better after my opinion.
I increased my imx before 3000 all values at 95% and decreasesed for overboost after 4000. I must put 10 and 20 values in IMX at the last 2 lines. I think my wastegate is to strong now.
I find next probems who must optimize them:
1. Can i leave imx like this (attached picture) or try to modify drl with smaller values?
2. Will try to put 95% ayt 3500 rpm too but i think it is enought boost at 4000 rpm aproximatly 1bar at 3750 rpm for an engine without forged rods.
3. I put my maximum load in ldr =200 but the boost desired is 2550.I'll try to decrease IRL. Correct, because there is 210 maximum value on the last line?
4. Very strange because i made 2 logs at a few minutes one after other, same file without any modifications. In log1 i have retards in log 2 doesn't. And more strage because in log 1 where i have retards , the EGT is less than log 2.
5. i saw my afr not follow the requested after 5200rpm. Injectors are in parameters 90% , have not missfire. My tabgts is setted to 700degree so it's higher than my calculated egt and what i understood from what i read AFR must follow the definition of LAMFA table , and my lamfa values in my table are exaclty like requested. I don't understood how made leaner my AFR after 5200. My Maf is scalled of and kflf is setted to 1.

I hope i put some plausible question and i don;t need to somebody resolve my problems like someone wrote in a post. I need only advices because for me as a noob are some "strange" things.
Thanks again for all.

Hi
Much better again, but something strange.Maybe the clutch is skating or the car jumps off the road.
Can see in the log file.
First at 3919 rpm can see the rpm is lower than upstairs but the pedal is 100%.
If you have any advices please let me know
Thanks to all

Boost looks MUCH better good job. You're on the right track there.

Fueling is definitely not great; might be fuel pump.

You're not out of injector so thats good, but the crazy lambda control is definitely a red flag.

As far as rpm goes, thats why i have a ton of filtering on the RPM input, consistency is all over the map. May want to check your rpm pickup/wiring at some point.

Thanks you for appreciation NYET.
I have bosch 550 injectors
I scaled them ok i think
tvub and krkte.
I have ltft -2.5 from 400km so i think they are scaled ok.
Sincerly  tried the fueling tuning lamfa>kflbts>kr (i attach my tables and i think i don't make mistake in one of them). Nobody give our like i attached but i think if some noobs will need them....I hope they are seted ok.
I saw what you said about fuel.
Only in boost and especialy when i push the pedal 99%. It is like you said : can be the fuel pump. It is the original one from when i bought my car, and the car was new when i bought it (in 2010 and now have 135.000km).
Thanks again and any advice will be helpfully for me.

PS i fogot to saiy ; lambda 1 wideband is new and has 200km , second lambda is deleted like cat too. I started from a BAM file with egt deleted too. The MAF is from BAM engine and i used the scaled from it!
And from 2 days when i make these logs, my cluch seems is dead. The flywheel make sounds. Can be this a cause of the decreese rpm from time to time and  the fuel can not follow what i request?

You are at 90% injector duty and bosch 550/630 will not provide more after this so your are basically maxed here.
I would reduce boost for 0.1 or 0.2bar just to try if this will be any better.
next step is a dw65v/fake fuelpump but nothing too big because the stock 3bar fuel pressure regulator is a bottleneck for to big fuel pump.

what about fkkvs, all 1s at the moment? sparks like brand new?

regards

Hi AEF
Sparks have 9000km and they are NGK PFR7Q , and i think they are ok.
I have an OSIAS fuel pump but not mounted yet.
I have an ajustable fuel regulator but not mounted yet.
FKKVS is not 1 i attached here.

Regards to all!

Can be TVUB and KRKTE calibarted wrong for my injectors?
My idel is ok ,  the car start very well doesn't matter the outside temperature , and in the full boost don had essitations or goals.

KRKTE:  0.06067

TVUB:  
7.96          10             11.07        14.01         15.98
1.5760   1.1040   0.9413   0.8373   0.7600

Post LTFTs

Lambda control shows a bit lean.

LTFT is in actual configuration at 20 outside degree between -1.5 and -0.8!
Can i decrease a little krkte or tvub for last 3 values,
I read on forum many settings of 550 bosch injectors at 3 bars.
I put my own like i wrote in previous post.
Happy Easter to all!

then i'd say you're good.

Figure out the hardware side of your fueling issues first, then go from there, since it means you're running out of fuel at higher loads/rpms, and not because of the tune.

Thanks Nyet and AEF too.
Both of you advice me it's a hardware problem.
I will try to put an aux outlet fuel pump after original one from reservoir.

PS: about kvb i can put directly 550 value like my injectors capacity or must put a 480 value calculated?
Thanks again.

In my experience KVB is never right w/o trial and error tuning. Not sure why.

In this case i left 550.

THANKS!