NefMoto

This is taken from a pro tuned gt30 1.8t file. Is it crazy or am I?



This thread was previously named "Crazy high KFMIRL???" It then became my progress through improving and fine tuning this tune while i learn more about the me7.5 and tuning in general.

please post LDRXN map also...

Right know turbo should max out at 2.4bar... But you should look into LDRXN map as it limits KFMIRL.

Its just as high, give me one second and i'll post it.

2.4bar = ~35 psi... do able...

Yes doable, not on a stock block :o

anyways here is the ldrxn. Issue with the tune if im not mistaken is the KFMIOP was grossly wrong so it would go into limit and fall on its face before it could make 1 bar.

LDRXN is a little bit interesting... I always thought that big turbos shouldn't decrease boost as RPM rises, but instead increase it. Only small turbos does that... hm... at ~2000 rpm LDRXN limits 2.4bar

P.S> Offtopic but could you show your kfmiop map?

Exactly! Certainly on my k04 hybrids, admittedly it's no gt30 but still the ldrxn hits about 190 at 3500 rpm, then steadily rises to 210 at 6500rpm, the increase gives a constant boost as the rpms and VE of the engine increase. I peak at 18psi and hold it till redline, surely the one shown above would peak at 35psi and then just die away making a very tame 3250-redline drive. I say tame in jest as no gt30 would be tame :-)

Thats a very good point, i'll pull up the map when i get a chance. The file is in the tuned files section with a mappack posted by PVL. It doesn't show a KFMIOP map, but comparing stock bins i was able to find it and its address is on the second page of the tune thread. Unless i screwed up, its outragous, aka in the 1000's.


Edit, i did screw up im looking at the wrong address. I'll go through it and figure it out then post it up.

think outside the box and why this works.


if you see how other car's(non VAG but meX) you will see how they calibrate different, you will see similar setup maybe(hint GM).  The pro tuner probably has some experience on that end and thus tuning in this manner.  you would be surprised when you start looking at same ecu but different platform on how the OEM's are calibrating in different manner. 

Its not improper, just a different way of doing things compared to how a lot of people do things here.

So I fixed my scaling, here is the correct map. I understand there are different methods of tuning, but this tuner is specialized in VAG. After i get this tune dialed in, i'll be looking back into the GM stuff. Specifically LSx platform. Anyways, it is basically stock with modified axis.

yea most match up the axis, but you dont have to really.  all these maps do is convert a torque to a required load to reach that torque, you can make the load whatever you want to meet your so called torque at a given point.  You may say it takes a load value of 400 to make 100 torque, but you could say the same for say 200tq depending on how you scale. 

I find it easier to leave these maps alone, and make sure iop maxes out 100 in highest tq, then IRL i can mess with all i want.  I do max out the UM tables to 100 accross the board though.

Theres just different ways to do things in the grand scheme of things, LDRXN does NOT equal a boost number, people keep thinking this for some reason.  There is a general formula for most stock tunes that gives you a rough boost you will achieve, but its just the load cap, thats all it is, load will follow this assuming IRL is tuned in appropriately.

I do NOT taper like stock in any of my files either, i ride it up the whole way, in a stock 2.0tfsi file i ride it up to about 220 at redline.  Just my style of tuning thats all. 

I used that LDRXN general formula, through the nice excel file in the sticky, to limit down to around 19-20psi. But i have yet to try this tune yet. The car is getting some hardware tweaks and a tune up since its been mostly sitting for the past 3 years.

I really just want to see how it reacts. My main concern is figuring out what saftey is kicking in before making full boost.

what do you mean safety?  What fueling its getting?

Not sure what was kicking in all i know, well up untill yesterday, is it would not make more than 1 bar, then fall on its face in upper rpm. With a manual boost controller it could only make 13psi, then i think since it could not control with the n75 it started closing the throttlebody. This should have been a perfect tune considering what was paid for it. With KFMIOP adjusted with the help of the excel calculator, we easily spiked at 35 psi yesterday, before the N75 could do its job[10psi spring in WG, and tuning for duty cycle left stock.]

I still have yet to run any logs since my laptop is fried, and i don't have his set up since our sceduals are tight and we only had time to give the new tweaks a quick test to see if it built boost. Then we spent time doing donuts. Mid engine RWD GTI FTW!!!

Well.


If you use that calculator you will change things in the ecu, but you must reflect changes elsewhere too!

Dont blindly change some of this stuff, you can cause damage obviously. Ever think you had other issues before with car maybe not tunes fault.

Hard to say anything without data, if you do logging and stuff im sure we can help you here get it where you want it.

never tune without exhaustive logging. period.

Got this tune on my car just for testing. Seemed to run really smooth. Idle was rich, driving was very lean. However I don't have a MAF. I would do some logging and scale my injectors better, but work has been tough enough to not spare any time so I can get my new intake in and fab it up.

Its scaled for a very odd maf. I think im going to go with an rs4 maf, or stock maf sensor in a custom housing. The car its in keeps getting a maf code. I have still not logged anything since i can't seem to get my friends computer set up properly to log, and mine is still dead. Did you run any? what injectors are you running.

nyet i aggree, but i felt a little safer since its a running tune. As well as the owner of the vehical said "i don't care, lets blow it up!" I could barely convinced him to let me bring down the boost to 19-20 psi vs 35.

We're going through the car and changing a few things before we continue. I understand changes must be reflected elsewere, and i made the changes that i knew i needed to. I still have alot of work to do on this tune, if it was my car i would log every run.

Cant run.  I did one pull and it was so lean like 16.5ish that I wasn't going to push it. I just parked it and left it. I'm sure I can tweak a little more fuel out in the top end but meh. I want my maf back; once it goes back in I'll scale it to the r32 size that I'll have.

550cc ev14 @3bar I forgot to save the injector voltages before I exported the file, so that might have a huge reflection in the lean condition. I can't believe I didn't save something that simple.

Yea thats lean, what maf do you plan to run?

R32 MAF with 1.8t sensor in it. At least, I hope that'll work.

I kind of want to stick to an rs4 just because the maps are available. Since i cant bring the car home and tune on my own time its easier to just worry about the other variables.

I have the maps for the stock r32, but after figuring sizing differences its just scaling the map from 1.8t values to xx% size difference.

 ???

Scaling is never a 100% thing... using available MAF's with correct scaling is a far better idea.

Well seems like you are unsure of some things, if you want me to take a look, i can clarify some things for you, if you are not comfortable posting file thats fine email it over.

Turbo in my car blew today! This tune will now get worked on faster since i'll be running it myself. Need to decide on a maf, im only planning on 300wheel hp and trq max since i have stock rods. Will an s4 maf flow enough, going to research now, but if someone chimes in it will save me some time.

More than enough, you should even be fine with a tt/vr6 maf. What turbo are you going with?

I need a definition for my r32 bin so I can pull the maf table from it.

Im going with a gt30 eliminator kit from atp. Best bang for the buck since a friend is a dealer. For now i'll be running stock maf on 10psi of boost max untill i put in a new timing belt and clutch.

there are TT 225 files on this site you can get calibration data from :)

I had a 28rs eliminator kit. Just /:

The setup I have now with a real manifold is just so much better. Get a high flow manifold or ported one.

Im not building my block so i dont mind the less power. I know i can tune for less low end, but the slightly delayed spool because of the stock mani is a nice safety against rod bending low rpm trq spikez.

Then if i build the block i will build a custom tubular mani to replace the stocker, and the up pipe. But for my big power needs i have my hotrod with a stroked nitrous motor. Should dyno at 700 rwhp with spray. So i dont mind keeping my 1.8t tame.

Its not even about power. I had more fun with my stock turbo. However my eliminator kit, oil and coolant, even with an upgraded intercooler wanted to overheat nearly every time I hit traffic.

Good to know. Was it due to the cast up pipe design, or the stock mani itself?

Back on topic a bit. Does having a high KFMIRL and limiting it down quite a bit by LDRXN cause a significant loss in resolution in the code?

Back to tuning this thing once again. Since the last posts i have built the motor with new rods, bearing and rings, installed a t28 flanged mani, 630's and inline pump. I ran a long to check afr last night and everything is running safe at 10 psi.  Am at the limit of my stock maf, and going to run a mafless log, If all is still in check, im then going to bump up the ldrxn to around 15-20 psi and log from there.

Still trying to work with this c2 file?

Give potter/collier a call: 502 895 3660

I would have been better off starting from scratch, but at this point its running and driving. Put about 1500 miles with it, putting on a bigger maf housing today and seeing of that was the bottleneck and how bad it was.

Basically drivability is great, power isnt where is should be. But since its my daily i can work on it as i go without much worry. Currently i can only benchflash at work, so tuning it will take some time since its alot of trial and error for a noob.

Why bench flash it? You can't flash it with nefmoto?

My laptop doesnt want to place nice...its killing me.

So after some research i found that the regular wideband 1.8t maf sensor element is the same part number as the 225 tt element. So throwing it in a vr6 housing should make it the same as a 225 maf. With the 225 maf table it doesnt want to idle well. Not sure if it is due to turbulent air or not since all i have is a cone at the end of the maf.

the idle search went away after a few minutes of driving so i believe i have the correct map. It pulls just under 3 g/s at idle. I went to go for a wot pull after seeing the afr fairly safe and my laptop died. Going to log a run on my way home from work and post it up.

I feel im not making as much power as i should at 20psi. What do you guys suggest logging?

If the boost is there, and the fueling is there, but the power is missing, your likely culprit is timing.  What do your CFs look like at WOT?  Adjust timing so that the corrections are somewhere between -3 and -6.

I'll look at timing on my drive home. From memory i was around 20* btdc at WOT. But im really need to confirm this.

What is timing usually set to, i never ran logs on a stock, or let alone any car before.

I read this somewhere, but need to confirm/check out:

"As for ignition timing I'd start with around 25-27* at 0 psi. Ramp it down to around 12* at 15 psi. High vacuum areas will probably want 35-40*. After your torque peak you can start feeding back a little more advance. Probably 3* total between torque peak and redline. That should get you in the ballpark. Keep an eye on the knock detector and read the plugs often to look for signs of detonation."

Thanks that helps alot, very close to what im seeing. Here is the log, its pulling up to 8*. Car pulls much better now that the fuel trims have adapted a bit. Im going to look at adjusting those but that will be in another post, i just want to get the log up here.

PS i need to check intake air temps, its hot out and my front mount is undersized. No spare $$ at the moment for a bigger core.

here is a screen shot for those w/o excel

So when the tune pulls timing, it pulls alot more than will actually cause knock correct? On average how much should i pull back the timing? I thought about half of what is being retarded.

Also i want to get the KRKTE and TVUB a little closer. Using the part throttle adaptation from block 032 on vagcom, i see a positive %, which im assuming that it needs to richen. Its settled to a safe value, and not too far out, but i don't want to drive around too much after a flash to settle the tune. The plan is to drop KRKTE just a hair to lean out WOT a bit, then adjust TVUB to richen the part and idle. [If this is backwards please let me know]

1 - Use me7logger and ecuxplot instead of vag-com. You'll log much more info (30+ variables at same time) and you can correlate each other more easily.

I can't see your boost logged so can't imagine where is your peak torque (maybe at 4k rpm?!?). Try to decrease 1 or 2* your timing before the peak (3000 -> 4000) and then increment a little after it, avoiding timing pulling. Log and see if it helps.

About KRKTE and TVUB, again, try to use me7logger and log injector time, afr desired, afr actual, lambda correction. When you get lambda correction plotted against afr desired/actual you can tune FKKVS to rich or lean specific areas.

I guess lowering KRTKE only won't lean WOT as it is. How your considering your fueling? LAMFA? BTS? Knock based?  There's a topic here in the forum about fueling strategies, but I can't remember which one is the best discussed :) do a little search, and maybe try this one: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1849.0

At first tune your fueling only and leave timing table to another time when you get fueling corrected.

Im going to get logger installed and working over the weekend, since non of my home computers have win ols i can't do much editing, so i will try and log as much as possible and learn what needs to be adjusted. For now its simple enough to slowly reduce ignition untill it no longer retards, which i what i did during my lunch break. Here is the log.

Ok so i determined my timing issue is due to hardware. My intercooler is simply too small for my turbo/flow. I was seeing really high intake temps, so im searching for a new core that will be taller and thicker now.

2,4 bar is interesting...  but how can this work with the oem 2550 mbar pressure sensor???

Thats a great question. I will look into it. Im currently right on the limit of it, so i need to figure something out before i turn up the boost.

On the timing front, i ordered a water meth kit. Snow stage 2 with pre throttle body nozzle and tb plate, with separate solenoids. Im also going to order a bigger core 30x10x3[24x10x3 for center part] compared to the tiny 27x7.5x2.5[20ishx7x2.5] that i have now.

Lastly i realized i have a bigger throttle body from a 2.8l v8 passat just hanging around. Going to look into whats needed in the tune to run that.

To increase the boost im going to clamp the map sensor, in order not to throw code/ limp. And run a manual boost controller in parallel with the n75. Thus whichever is set lower will open the wastegate. This will leave with smooth drivability under the clamped map sensor reading/part throttle, while allowing me to boost over the 22.5psi limit of the map sensor.

On the timing front, with the bigger core, and temps lower than 90*f while running logs, my timing CF isn't really as bad. Plus i was told by a few locals that as long as im pulling less than 6-8 im ok, and some stock cars pull more than that! A few meth runs w/o any adjustment to tune, and no real tweaking of the meth ramp limit and im pulling 1.5-3.

I don't understand why you need to clamp the MAP sensor. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to.

And you dont need an MBC either, just use the I limit table to limit your WGDC.

uh wat?

I was under the impression that anything over 22-23 psi is out of map sensor limit. Thus the n75 cannot limit boost if it doesnt know when its reach the desired boost? Also doesnt exceding the map sensor cause a limp mode?

There are various ways to limit WGDC. The downside is that if you depend on limiting boost with DC alone (blindly), if you tear a waste gate line, the ECU can't protect you (e.g. via throttle cut) because it doesn't know you are overboosting.

No, hitting the MAP limit will not cause limp mode.

DEVIATION causes limp mode.

How does the ECU stay in regulation while boosting over the map sensors limit? MAF readings?

Regulation of what? Ignition and fueling?

Boost.

PID I limit

Like i fool i have been looking at the wrong measuring block for throttle angle. What would cause an 85% throttle?? Im assuming i'm being limited through throttle since i modified my n75 to allow more boost.

Sadly my tuning time is going to get cut short again, if i can sort this out, i'll drive the car happily as is since i have made definite improvements thus far. And as a daily driver it is smooth a reliable. I just want more POWER!

No clue. get real logs

I think i was makeing more foolish assumptions, but reading throttle in block 060 with vagcom shows 85% while im WOT. I believe that that reading does actually represent full throttle for the TB. Going to try and confirm this and will let you guys know.

On to a slightly different topic real quickly. KFZW!

attached is the map that was in the bas file i started with. Now i simply need some clarification. In KFZW shouldn't the max on the axis be atleast the max load im going to run run LDRXN?

I changed the KFZWOP with the Me7.5 advisor, adjusting the axis using the optimization feature. Can i simply adjust KFZW similarly and scale the rest of the map to match?

Short answer: yes

If you are greatly exceeding the max load on the axis, it is in your best interest to rescale it. Otherwise, you will need to run more conservative timing in the last column to accomodate the actual load that exceeds the axis.

Agree with the long answer.

For most purposes, rescaling the last column is all you really need.

Or, you can run an underscaled MAF.

Ok thanks alot guys, i just wanted to be sure, before i spent alot of time re-scaling and writing a new map!