NefMoto

Hi

First post after being a lurker for a little while so here goes... bit of background first...

I have a 2001 Audi S3 that I have done a big turbo conversion on... the spec is essentially as follows..

1.8 20v (AMK), std bore/stroke, AEB head and Supertech valve gear std cams, GT3071r, 0.63 hotside, Tial wastgate, Siemens Deka IV 630cc injectors, 3bar FPR, std S3 MAF housing and sensor, FMIC etc...

My ECU is an ME7.5 (wideband and EGT probe)... I have been working on a base file to get the injectors dialled in and have so far found a few bits of conflicting info regarding the calibration data for these injectors... has taking a me a few attempts to get KRKTE close but think I am pretty much there now but have a few questions...

I have read S4 wiki inside out and having wide band makes it a bit easier to get WOT sorted on the road using block 001 in VCDS and checking Lambda Control... I have set up both LAMFA and KLFBTS with suitable fuelling and have set TVUB according to a spec sheet I found here:
http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg

ms		volts
1.441		8
0.921		10
0.758		11
0.636		12
0.518		13
0.409		14
0.312		15

...although this conflicts with the data on the link here...
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

ms		volts
0.83		10
0.64		11
0.5		12
0.38		13
0.28		14
0.17		15

Wasn't sure what to believe but went with the former rather than the latter... I used the 34.125/630 method initially but WOT was pulling a lot of fuel so after a lot of trawling and reading (mainly on Nef) I used another spec sheet from the siemens deka site (http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961.jpg) which suggests that in fact the injectors are 668cc @ 3bar and the following useful post on Nef
This got me to a KRKTE of 0.04933 and a WOT run looking like:
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/tufftybloke/Random/Car/S3/Tuning/Log-T105.jpg)

Now... maybe a little tweak and I can get that a tad better but here are the questions...

Given that my LTFTs are hovering around mid 3%, is it better to tune FKVVS (mine isn't set to 1's like some of the other files on here) and/or TVUB? Due to the conflicting info on the 630's do I believe my TVUB settings to be correct? I have spoken to a friend who tunes for a living and I have no reason to disbelieve him at all (I know he is a member on here) but I thought it would be nice to get other people views on an approach to this :)

I have access to a dyno where I can do steady state across load sites but not sure if I am chasing the impossible of if I will get some progress from it...

Any advice is welcome :)

<tuffty/>

Can't help, but damn great first post, i started posting way before i knew enough to actually work on a tune.

Anyways, im a few steps behind you in my tune. 20v 1.8t with the same exact turbo, not sure of hotside though, same WG and injectors. Im technically fixing a screwed up tune from a pro, but it actually forced me to learn alot faster by looking for his mistake. I should hopefully be logging my first few runs in the coming days, so i'll be watching this thread and hopefully be able to contribute,

Thanks bud... there is a lot to learn isn't there...  ;D been reading a lot over the past few weeks... I do have a small head start as a friend of mine has a tuning business and a dyno and he has let me work over there on my own car so you pick stuff up as you go... the map I had originally was from the original conversion I did and I have changed a lot of the hardware since so decided to have a go myself from scratch...

Good luck with yours :)

<tuffty/>

Still don't know for sure if either of the links I originally posted are the correct ones but after a little more research I stumbled across another useful post here:
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1523.0

Using the excel spreadsheet and adjusting the TVUB calc values according to the siemensdeka.com data sheet I got the following values:
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/tufftybloke/Random/Car/S3/Tuning/TVUB_T110.jpg)

These were calculated at 3bar as transverse 1.8t's use these FPR's rather than the 4bar more common with inline 20v's

Anyone got any clarification as to if the siemensdeka.com datasheet is accurate? or even that my interpretation of the data from spreadsheet in the above post is ok?

<tuffty/>

I use 1.1975 - 0.7361 -0.4881 - 0.3334 - 0.2480 and i have 1.2% measurements on block 032.
Siemens deka 630 with 3fpr.

Thanks mate... will see how this next file goes and if its still out by any amount I'll try these next...

How did you derive these values?

<tuffty/>

I start from a base set of values and after some logs those looks to be the closest i can get to 0.
Its good to share so if you find them useful please inform.

i'll be looking at this tomorrow, and will post what my trims are as well as what my current tune has.

im at 2.6% adjustment at a KRKTE of .05150 and TVUB stock, 1.5735 .9521 .6214 .4134 .2720. I will try some adjustments and report back later.

Bump, really interesting info here on the 630cc deka's, has anyone tested the value's supplied by professor?

I will be using these injectors as well on the same spec vechile (hi tuffty  ;D) .

(My apology if I have hi-jacked in any way)

Just as information, these injectors are crap in general.
They are non-linear at low pulsewidths and over time their spray pattern further deteriorates at low loads causing lots of misfires at idle...

The boschdealer specs are wrong as well IIRC.

100% agree, after fighting with these for so long, i totally will not support them anymore.  Can make them run great on one car with my set of injectors, another set is totally different, they have terrible QC IMO. 

I only support EV14 injectors now.  You will be AMAZED at the difference without a proper tune on them.  getting ev14's mildy tuned in, is better than 630's at their best in my experience.

630's were the only option at one point, step up to the newer technology and dont waste your time.

I've worked with 630cc injectors and they are as nonlinear as you can get. They require some serious fine tuning of the batter voltage compensation and I've found the injection correction map to be quite useful in helping with the non linear behavior as well. KFFKVS is the abbreviation for injection correction map. I won't go back to those injectors again though. I have yet to see a magic BVC that has worked well for more than one application.

What's a good alternative then, 550's being too small?

750cc long body EV14's.

Who makes the 750cc's? Im playing with my tvub on 630cc now, i went to a 4bar so i can handle running e85 eventually.

idle 6.9 partial -7
current values are krkte .0483
1.33
.88
.64
.48
.40

Honestly don't remeber how i got to those tvub numbers, i think i started with what was listed on this thread, then used the excel from another post and thats where im at now.

They are all custom.

You can check if five-o-motorsport have some in stock.

I have found some interesting info about these injectors some time ago -> link (http://forum.ecuproject.com/showthread.php/1878-Indexing-Siemens-630cc-60lb-injectors?p=55429&viewfull=1#post55429). The injector's nozzle is randomly positioned and to make them spray precisely into to the intake ports it needs "indexing" rotating to correct the nozzle position.

some other source of spec info -> link (http://www.rstuning.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=206)

Regards
Lobuziak

Why people spend money on these crap injectors is truly beyond me.

Prj - You posted Voltage versus Latency values you use for your EV14's.  My question though is the values you posted had non-standard Voltage Axis values.  Does this mean you altered your 5 Voltage Axis Points to reflect what you posted or did you do some kind of interpolation to use the Stock Voltage Axis?

No, that means I mostly calibrate 2.2T 5 cylinder engines and the axis is different there :p

OK, perfect, but--- if you are confident in the values you posted, then I can just change the Axis Points and I bet it'll be fine.
Wouldn't you think?

OP:  I'm just trying to point out that if you can get a good calibration, even with the wrong "axis voltages", it can still work.

There are many different EV14's. I posted latencies for the commonly available 510cc / 550cc ford motorsport ones.

@prj: Where are these values you posted? Can't find them.

My calculations are (for EV14):
Volts |   8     -         10       -        12    -        14        -       16
MS |    2.352   -    1.5450   -    1.1211  -      0.8497   -     0.640

Ford Motorsport 550cc and Bosch 510cc:
8V   2.229
10V 1.493
12V 1.099
14V 0.800
16V 0.693

Thanks we are close enough.

My settings are tested on over 10 cars...
But the old 8 bit ECU's are less precise, so there are some rounding errors in there. More so than on ME7.

Are you using these?

Here's what I am using (EV14)

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg18405#msg18405

Volts    ms (2.7bar)  ms (3bar)   ms (4bar)
 7.04    3.261           3.693         3.865          
10.07   1.416           1.604         1.678
12.04   1.035           1.173         1.227
14.08   0.781           0.884         0.926
17.88   0.657           0.744         0.779

I am using the values I posted at 4 bar, and my target = requested spot on at low pulsewidths.
There are very many different EV4's, maybe a good idea to state which injector you are using, as the dead times are different for 550cc and 750cc's etc.

Have used 750cc Bosch in a car before but never really took that much notice of them... they were from 034 and appeared to be a hacked 550cc as all the PN's were the same...
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-injection-solutions-fuel-injectors-550cc-or-750cc-bosch-ev14-fuel-injector-p-17564.html

I did consider running 550's at 4bar instead of the 630's... can't say I have noticed too many issues with them and in the 20k+ miles they have been fitted and through the various changes to the engine they always come out clean but then I have had a PCV delete since day one of my build...

Had a hunt around for the specs of these but couldn't find anything... intrigued as to what they do to make them flow more and how this affects latencies etc...

<tuffty/>

All 750's are modified 550's FWIW.

My experience with them has been pretty good so far but who knows how different people modify them in order to obtain that flow.
A certain someone said they are (re)drilled to obtain that flow.

For reference:
550's @ 4bar = 635cc (or 638cc) and should "work" with most 630cc tunes but YMMV.

I recently tuned for a set of ev14s custom blueprinted to flow 630cc@3bar. The spec sheet that came with them was perfect. Plugged in the values given, trims were the closest to 0 I've ever seen. 10th of a percent.