NefMoto

THREAD RENAMED TO PREVENT CONFUSION

TLDR: Started the thread with one of the less well documented binaries and just about every part of the engine changed from stock at the same time. Initial question was a load path issue along with wastegate spring pressure, then a cam chain tensioner causing problems.

If you enjoy tuning your 1.8t via the process of elimination, this is the thread for you.



I'm having some issues after swapping a dying k04 with a 2860. I used to be able to get spikes of around 18psi and taper off with the k04 but this guy seems to spool up a little later and I would like to try pressures that would not be possible with the old turbo. I don't think LDRXN is the issue, maybe KFLDHBN? I don't know the address for that map in my binary. Another issue seems to be fueling, The fuel filter is new and i don't think the pressure drops significantly under load but it doesn't reach 160% load in the first place so not sure. I intend to work on the PID tuning, I started on the I table for higher duty at low rpm to spool faster but not sure how to rectify that balooning overshoot once it gets there. Can someone point me in the right direction? I don't even hear the turbo spooling or get any surge when I let off the pedal like I used to and I was expecting it to be a lot worse lol

550cc@4bar
8.5:1CR 81.5mm
stock MAF, haven't seen more than 175g/s

 I tried the 5120 hack with the 4b0906018ch 360101 and got lots of weird issues like requested pressure 1/2 what it should be and some inverse response to torque request at part throttle. That might be a different thread for another day but it would be nice to get over with if someone could point me in the right direction, the map definitions are a little scarce for this bin and I'm afraid to try finding the smaller tables/scalars on my own after some exciting results in the past...

You're requesting 0.8 bar, your pid is not tuned.
Not sure what you expect?

That's my question, I have ldrxn and ldrxnzk asking for much more load than that, why is the boost request capped at 1800-1900millibar absolute? Is it a pressure ratio thing?

As PRJ said, you're not requesting any additional boost. Modifying LDRXN and LDRXNZK is not enough. They are limiters. You need to have a look at KFMIRL, KFMIOP, KFLDRL and KFLDIMX (at least).

Did you read S4 tuning wiki?

Awesome thank you guys, was assuming the load was a symptom not the cause, it's been a few years since I messed with this car.

Is it possible to scale the KFM /KFL maps to equate a larger actual load with lower indicated load (ideally without scaling maf and everything else)? I have tiptronic so over 399 calculated torque = violent downshift.

That statement makes zero sense.

Either fix your load req path, fix the 5120 hack if it's broken, or go back to stock pressure scaling and stay under 21 psi.

Start by re-rereading the s4 wiki and logging all of the req load limiters.

No 5120 on this map, I want <21psi. Tiptronic requests load reduction during shifts and ecu sends calculated torque values to it. Doesn't the torque value the me7.5 sends to TCM over canbus get calculated from the load? When I adjust KFMIRL this value torque sent becomes higher and causes problems with the transmission kicking out of gear. I am trying to find a way around this without doing a manual swap or maf scaling.

On the 5120 subject, my issues were weird part throttle which I think were caused by messing with something 1013 related, and the question I had about that is should the requested pressure be half of the MAP measured value or should they both be halved i.e. 440mbar instead of 980mbar at idle for requested and actual.

I think I can figure out the load I just wanted to make sure my only options to prevent the transmission torque downshift were either scaling the MAF or having less load in the first place. Maybe there is a smarter way

Your problem is not IRL IOP, your specified load is high enough.
Leave those alone.

I admit the title is a bit misleading, the goal jokes aside is to make some power without the ecu telling the transmission how much. Unless you were serious Prj? Do you get what I'm trying to do and is it possible?

I made some changes to your file relating boost control, target fueling, ignition timing, load scaling and a few other changes. Also, switched cwmdapp to 8. that changes boost control to run off a single table. use this to get fueling right then switch close loop pid back on and tune that. .82 lambda request at full load (using bts fueling) max ignition advance at full throttle is 15* by redline. ldrxn is use as a "boost cap" (load cap) atm. if youre on stock maf you will pin the maf sensor and need a larger housing.

Considering the previous replies and my first -1 karma receipt today, and the fact that nobody has told me to "get rid of your slushbox" I partway expect this will brick the ecu lol. If this is genuine thank you, I will investigate. On the subject of previous replies, I lost about an hour changing the boost I and D tables, logging and trying again before I realized the wastegate pressure cracks at 14psi. Wasn't there a map or two that compensates for that? Maybe I should adjust the wastegate instead

Just read the wiki

Yes found them, KFVPDKSD/E. Marty, can you tell me what maps/functions are at the following addresses? Attached is where I had boost kind of where I wanted yesterday with your pressure ratios copied over, haven't had time to try the rest yet. 
13583-13587
19bc5-193cf
1f368,1f369
1fc46-1fe3b
8cda8-8cdb7
fffe0-fffe5

I dont have the time to go threw your file and and point out the addresses you have. I dont have a map pack for that version so im finding them by hand. the file you uploaded in your last post looks the same as the original. Be Careful with what you are doing that setup can easily throw a rod threw the side of the block. hint: ldrxn caps irl. your changes dont make sense in regards to those maps. also your boost cap is still enabled at best youll make 14 psi. fueling is too lean then bts will kick in and drown it in fuel. you have a very long way to go and youre headed in the wrong direction. start with the basics like fueling, an appropriate maf housing size to accommodate the air flow, calibrate the new maf sensor housing, scale your tables to give you resolution so youre not running the last row (140 load) anything over that will run those timing values. Just my 2c. also, fwiw you have to play ball if you want help ie me7 logger logs, do some self education on the topic, do some reading on pid control systems so you have a understand on how boost control works in closed loop etc       

also, for what reason do you think you need to change air over throttle maps? you think you can do a better job then the bosch calibrator who measured air flow tested it on a flow bench?

13583-13587
axis values for kfz
19bc5
kfldrapp: single boost duty cycle table used when in app mode (cwmdapp bit set to 8 in the file i uploaded you)
1f368,1f369
NDLDRAPU
1fc46-1fe3b
idk most likely checksum
8cda8-8cdb7
idk most likely checksum
fffe0-fffe5
idk most likely checksum

I put the maf sensor in a larger housing, so that is mostly sorted for now..
I am still having issues with the boost pid. It's to the point where KFLDRL and DIMX almost look alien, it's kind of close but still overshooting.

RE: When I Read the wiki™ there was mention of changing the axis values of these maps under the bold Base boost and wastegate spring pressure heading. I thought that might help.

I have attached images this time for easier viewing

dude, your wgdc is ZERO

How did you miss that?

I thought higher wastegate duty cycle increases boost? It's already overshooting

I can change the title to "plebeian n00b refuses to read wiki, has issues with boost duty PID" if you want  ::)

Or you can. Does anyone read posts anymore or are we here to unload full magazine of snarky car comments lol

The above log was after I used Marty's edits.bin addresses to locate the KFLDRAPP table, do the whole 10% and log, %20 and log etc.. procedure to populate KFLDRL and KFLDIMX. CWMDAPP worked just fine and anything above 60% wgdc at higher RPM's got a throttle close, assuming >2550mbar. LDRXN is set to 180 flat.

Should I adjust the wastegate or should I be running much more boost in the first place?

You should start by consulting your compressor map, deciding on a PR, do some napkin estimates over your pressure drop over your IC, and pick a boost profile.

Then, set your wastegate to something reasonable (preferably lower than your boost target at redline, lower if you want decent part throttle response).

Then work on your PID.

That makes sense Thank you. I had settled on 2.5CR@30lbs/min maximum. The MAF body is 74mm so I set MLMAX to 816.5kg/h based on that flow, hopefully that is ballpark correct? (I later found out MLMAX isn't used for engine calculations?)

If I can find the scavenger hunt 5120 functions I would like to run more than wastegate pressure. I actually think I have most of them found but one or more maps are not labelled correctly... Soon

While calibrating the MAF/larger housing I've noticed ps_w dives from 310millibar above to 270millibar below pvdks_w. At lower boost levels it's not such an issue but letting the turbo spool up a bit something is going to melt or adjust rods in a bad way.

I might need some MAF housing modification like a velocity stack and elements to promote laminar flow like the stock housing. I could be completely off here but judging by the voltage there is quite a bit of turbulence going on and the flow is not good enough for a velocity to flow translation the way it is now.

Could I calibrate my MAF using a known good MAP sensor or external pressure sensor vs rlroh_w or should I get a different MAF and be done with it? if so any suggestions on what part number?

Thank you.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?;topic=4839.0

Thank you for that, my maf reads like a 66-67mm ID around idle and gets up to readings like a 73-74mm ID at higher rpm. I frankenstein'ed some curves together, fuel and timing are significantly better now. ps_w is slightly below actual all the way up. Wdkugdn needs some adjustment above 4k, the ps_w jump was from KFMLDMX being set too low. I guess I'll try to get msdk_w to match mshfm_w next.

What you really are looking for is getting your fuel trims near zero with KRKTE/TVUB at theoretical.

I started with KRKTE at odd values just to get idle right thinking I had a fuel delivery issue. Car had been sitting a long time before this thread. New MAF went into housing and got a new o2 sensor when I put the turbo on. I didn't think to investigate the maf values until I noticed timing was off and the weird KRKTE all made sense. KRKTE is theoretical now(TVUB from datasheet). Load tables fixed the calculated torque transmission kickdown problem too (last columns 100% I think). I learned a few bad habits using eurodyne way back, should have started here to begin with. I still haven't massaged the MLHFM all the way but it's becoming a driving car again

By the way, THANK YOU for tools and the wiki, hosted files all of it. I would be dicking with python and matplotlib and MIGHT have a puddle of oil and rods in my driveway if not for these resources.
I'm impressed by and have learned a lot from several people who have commented on this thread, it's nice to finally talk to some of you.

I dont know your setup and how this all started but what you learn on the first comment in here usually is that you only change one thing at a time.
first dial in your injectors with the stock maf or change your maf while on stock injectors. thats easier said than done most of the time because people change everything at once

in europe you would just mount a rs4 b5 maf and copypaste mlhfm. kfkhfm 1's and done.
some well known injectors (tvub/krkte) and fkkvs all 1's and will change from logfile to logfile constantly

you should massage your lamfa to get a nice curve instead of a drop from lean to rich.

Started with a eurodyne tune 550cc injectors and frankenturbo, FT injested a small animal that had been living in the airbox after sitting for years and swapped for a gtx2863r elim. KFMLDMX would max out at wastegate pressure or higher above a certain rpm causing bad fueling due to stock WDKUGDN and higher flow at and above 4k. Put sensor in larger housing and scaled with mafadjust.exe for actual ID's of old and new housings, lost low rpm torque and fuel was all over the place (actual - trim), once I saw timing was also off set KRKTE and TVUB to theoretical and tried to use Me7Tuner to correct MAF, car would die at idle. It was after this I noticed ps_w would jump and how I determined KFMLDMX was to blame based on MAF voltage when jump down occurred. I might not have noticed if WDKUGDN was correct. Got the 5120 working somewhere in between all of this by going over the FR and my file with idapro, one of the XDF's I was using had a password but another couple did not so I could view addresses and go from there, I did a lot of the work while I was sick but I think fho_w 1013 was doubled instead of halved, a couple of the 1013's were mislabeled and the MAF/ fuel issue was throwing me off.

From what I've gathered once I get MAF correct then lamsoni_w *should* match LAMFA and I can then play with KFKGFM (FKVVS is suggested instead on wiki) if they don't, THEN I can finally get msdk_w to match mshfm_w with WDKUGDN so the car will not melt valves without MAF connected does that sound about right or do I have the wrong order?





The only non-standard part would be the maf (and wastegate pressure), it's not exactly a smooth curve yet

Yep pretty much on point there :)

I should add, a slight bit of underscale never hurt anyone, it can help with pesky torque intervention if you are too lazy to get it perfect (yes, prj will shoot me for that suggestion)

You can prescale krkte or KFKHFM/KFLF a bit to get that baked into your setup.

Thanks. I might have to start logging "mi" variables again because I might be getting there.
I'm close to getting the MAF straightened out, decided on matching ps_w to pvdks_w and scale down after.

So how much lower should ps_w be than pvdks_w?

Is there a formula to adjust WDKUGDN?

best to just be under or at it under all operating conditions


Not really. Trial and error, or you can write your own log analyzer to make guesses.

A couple more,

Is there a list of tables that would need to be interpolated if I wanted to run actual load instead of underscaled MAF? Or is it even worth it?
I saw high 250's and low 260's when checking 80% duty cycle with app mode and would be nice to have more granular control of the high end. This might make more sense with E85 and decent boost pressure, I'm not sure there is any timing left at ~30psi with 93octane though.

Assuming there is any power to be made at 30PSI, what should my target lambda be? low 0.70's? I'm assuming IAT plays a large role


Maybe a bit OCD of me but is there a way to bias fueling in a specific cylinder, say cylinder 2 or cylinder 4 is running lean from fuel rail pressure drop or intake manifold pressure drop? Or do I need to be investigating aftermarket replacements for these?

I have the maf sorted out now, fuel is close, the boost PID is getting close. Working on kfmirl/iop to smooth out the torque, while I'm on that think kfzw needs to be higher at low boost and lower at higher boost. kfzwop might also need some polish but won't know for sure until it gets cold out. There is still a large discrepancy between msdk_w and mshfm_w, getting worse as boost increases so WDKUGDN is pretty high on the priority list.

For reference the goal includes fuel delivery upgrades and e85, 8.5:1 pistons and rods are installed. If it's way out of whack or I'm taking the wrong approach a pointer would be appreciated, thanks for the tips so far.

I am having a comfort related issue, since 5120 the A/C will only run at idle after clearing the codes during a/c torque adaptation, for 20 seconds (timer) unless the brake pedal is depressed. B_koe shows the ECU is requesting compressor dis-engagement.

Can anyone tell me an easy way to find the maps MDKOEN and MDKOAN? I think I should have altered at least MDKOEN in some way during the 5120. I can post an ida file with most relevant things labeled if that would help.

So I completely re-did torque tables, fueling and throttle plate angle and fixed a few issues with my 5120 after confirming the correct addresses of a few maps. I mostly messed around with the low end to try to get some decent performance off boost but am about to start going over LPRPID again. A hose clamp broke at the end but this is 4th gear from as low as I could go before downshift in the tiptronic. My cam chain tensioner is doing something weird at high pressure. Can someone tell me if I'm on the right track, should I adjust timing to cater to the worst cylinders? Is 40C+ IAT water/meth territory and what kind of timing is reasonable? I'm requesting 1.5° at 250 rl / 5k rpm. I just guessed low as I have no clue.

Your real ignition output is -3 degrees at 5000.
Stop. Now. Engine damage will occur or has already occurred, the only thing saving you from instant meltdown is the 0.73 lambda it has been running.

Reduce boost by at least 0.5 bar or increase fuel octane by at least 5-6 points.
If it's not shit fuel, then something is completely fucked with your engine. High backpressure can cause this or very high compression ratio.

Either way, if you continue like this you will blow it up.
Minimum acceptable ZWOUT on this engine at 5000 rpm is 5-6 degrees. You are at -3. Minimum lambda after which it starts losing chunks of power is about 0.78-0.79. You are at 0.73.

If your pressure variables are halved and you are actually running 1.8 bar boost, then to run this amount of boost you need a CR of preferrably 8.0:1, at least 8.5:1.
Or you need race fuel.
I didn't read the thread, but are your rods stock? If they are and you showed them 1.8 bar boost, it's time to pull the engine as they are 100% bent.

TLDR;
Guy is running -3 degrees ignition timing @ 5000 rpm with 1.8 bar boost and 0.73 lambda.

Rods are not stock. 91 octane. The requested lambda is intentional, I don't DD like that.  characterizing the WGDC. In the past timing pull wasn't nearly as bad with 93 but I don't know what timing or fueling should be at all above say 160 load, I had no clue.

Edit: I got the 5120 working some time ago, recently fixed the air conditioner disable because of brake booster pressure. I forgot to double the pressures in the .ecu file
8.5 cr pistons

Thank you for the fuel and timing pointers :D

That moment when I realized I left a couple >0.83's in the bts table at high load:
*On today's episode we achieve diesel cycle peak cylinder pressure at 360° in an otto cycle engine briefly*

Doesn't matter what pistons you have, you can't run this amount of boost on this engine.
Either your exhaust backpressure is skyhigh or something else is wrong. You should not have -3 deg actual timing with real 8.5 CR.

Its pure useless setup with -3deg@5000 especially on 8.5cr
Stock 180bhp should runs much better
Check wnwi_w. Something messed up with timing gear. Ive never seen >1.5 and yours are jumping to 7 with huge peaks
Log AT reduction (miges_w iirc)

Fix your hw first. Aim at least of 15deg @ 1.2 bar. No reason to drive an oven
 Youre mf lucky one if there is no internals harmed

I did all the internals except the girdle about 8 years ago expecting to throw a big turbo on, bought a new car and this one sat. Was planning on something like megasquirt until I found this online community.

There is something wrong with the cam chain tensioner, I knew about it but didn't realize it was that bad. Also why in the hell is my timing pull almost identical at 1.2bar as it is at 2bar??? Has anyone ever seen that before?


For a sanity check I went all the way back to one of my first posts from last year and it's almost exactly the same there


Looks like something has been wrong with cylinder 3 the whole time and the only thing I've changed is requesting more boost and less timing. Also attached old and new KFZW pics, I'm pretty sure I lowered timing request to complete boost PID but idk if the motor is about to explode I will just only tune PID for the lower duty cycle requests under 70% or so

Whats the point to asking why something weird happened with a defective engine?
Thats all cheap talk. Again - fix hw first

Sometimes the engine logs can diagnose an engine defect better than cheap talk. I'm curious about what is broken too but would rather not pull the motor if it's just an aftermarket CCT flapping around...

Thanks to a helpful tip I think we're onto something. Measuring block 093 was -8° crank angle.

Do I need to do anything special with the cam chain tensioner for upgraded intake springs? Do I just use Hooke’s law to pick a new one that roughly equals the rate of the intake spring x 3?

When I took the tensioner out the only thing holding the bottom shoe down is the spring, not the oil pressure when the solenoid is de-activated. Or is the solenoid defective?

What are you trying to achieve?
For the -8 degree you have to mount an adjustable timing belt wheel.
This has nothing todo with your chain or tensioner as long as your wnwi_w value is calm and near 0.

You can buy a new chain if you like but the offset in timing is coming from a recurfacing of block and/or head in the past.
Or from a non-standart sealing which has another thickness.

wnwi_w is moving on it's own from 4000rpm, is rotating clockwise relative to crank and gets to +8°> by 4600-4800 depending on how fast crank accelerates and stays at or above +6° until redline. 60psi oil above 4k or so. Intake cam caps look fine.

see here for graph with wnwi_w issue:

I will have to get the adjustable wheel to hit 0° in block 93.

Obviously this isn't the best way to resolve the problem but I found an additional spring that fits in the cam chain tensioner top piston and the timing issue seems to be greatly improved now. wnwi_w is still higher than 1.5°  after 3800rpm but nowhere near 6-8° like before.

You have the sieve in the tensioners bottom hole and the sealing is okay? no silicone nightmare everywhere?

Is your vvt working from 0 to 22 degree?
edit: its in your log and okay...

How old is the chain and how many miles?

Metal screen was clean when I took out it seemed like it wouldn't cause harm so put back in.
No visible silicone ooze anywhere near the oil hole.
~18k miles on the chain. Both arrows are in the cam keyway grooves when tensioner is tight and loose if that means anything.

Might be relevant, Crank TDC is about 1/8" before the timing cover mark but other than that nothing looked off. Both head and block have been machined.

I should probably take some measurements and make a model in fusion, calculate the forces involved because I suspect the tensioner is still not quite holding the chain apart like it should.
Unless the oil holes in the top piston were just drilled too high or the bore is tapered near the top I don't see a good assurance a replacement tensioner wouldn't do the same thing.

I'm confused a little by this thread.  Is everyone who has a GTX2860R going to have the same issues  without a timing adjustment wheel or are you trying to fudge the engine because it wasn't built correctly?

The latter.

Even if cam timing is a 7-8 degrees out, it does not explain the knock and late ignition timing.
Ignition timing does not "move" with the cam somehow, the trigger is on the crankshaft.

Most likely the head was skimmed a lot and wrong thickness head gasket was used together with other issues.

There is never any need to do anything with the tensioner with different springs. But OP seems to be too stingy to fit a new one after an engine build. Not to mention running pulls with 2.5 degrees zwout at high rpm without realizing that the engine is being destroyed.

@Geomeo I should change the thread title since that issue was resolved almost a year ago. Engine build was summer 2014, new turbo last February.

I had timing pull, decreased timing in KFZW and it still had timing pull. Then someone sent me a PM pointing out cam angle was doing something weird. It needs a new tensioner. Was a Gates VVS143, lasted about 19k miles. If anything this was a demonstration of the quality of that turbocharger and supertech exhaust valves.