NefMoto

Hi Guys,
i need help with my ME7.1.1 (index LP ST10 Chip 2kb eeprom) I have a A3 3.2L 8P and Turbomod it. I´m now in the final steps and have a tuner for the engine software. The last Problem we still have is that my ECU doesn´t know a Map Sensor and a Fuel pressure Sensor also a N75 boost controler. We have no clue how to add these. Has someone add these to his Me7.1.1 or has experience at disassambling/adding these? 


Thx guys  :)

Clearly you don't have a "tuner" then.

that motor is a waste of time. Also if your tuner can't figure out any of that, and hasnt' flat out told you that you're delusional, they're not even capable of a stage 1 tune, let alone adding FI to an NA motor

Get a 2.7t swap or go standalone.

Do not buy any hardware until you find a tuner who can do the work, and has told you specifically what parts to buy.

Basically Chris, they're saying your tuner is fobbing u off, they're saying that they can't understand an NA engine set up doesn't have boost controls built in a la ME7.1.1. (NA isn't FI!).

It's not impossible to do, u need to look through the best resources on the net, so Google "Nef moto R32 turbo" to start learning how to.

how do you propose to swap a 2.7 in place of a 3.2l vr6?

OP, you have a long expensive road ahead of you i l know of about 5-7 people in the world that can properly tune this and only 2 who can implement custom code that youd want (demetri and alex). besides that youre boned. Like nye said, you can go standalone too but those are your only real options. Ive dropped some hints on a few threads if you go and look at the na>t threads. best of luck and stay away from your "tooner" if you value your engines life.
 

The Tuner doesn´t have time to mod my ECU. He normaly don´t do VAG. He´s complete full with 1000+PS Skylines, Supras and so on.... The tuner is realy good, thats not the problem. He would do the engine software only in case my ECU is complete ready to use. That includes that my Me 7.1.1 know these 3 components. @nyet the 2.7T is a waste of time. Why should i swap a worse engine in it? It´s so expensive to get these engines and power out of these. Next problem is the german TÜV. I´m never allowed to drive these engine in a 8P on public streets. @Marty O.K thx i never thought thats such a big thing.... shit.

You don't understand do you.

The fact that someone can tune an engine on a standalone ECU gets them absolutely nowhere with an OEM ECU, especially if you are trying to run a turbocharged car on a NA ECU.
Also, it does not make the car any more difficult or simple to tune whether it has 100 hp or 1000 hp.

So, your "tuner" is absolutely worthless for you. He can't tune your car.
You can count on your fingers how many people can properly tune this in the entire world.
And the ones that can are never going to touch a car that they didn't built with a 10 ft pole.

Too bad you learn this lesson AFTER you built it.

From here on out, you are way off track


Because 99% of the window licking morons who claim their turbo VR6s are making big power are flat out fucking liars. Every single VR6 making power does it with standalone, with none of ME7.x's guardrails or streetable drivability, let alone emissions. They're not even proper road track cars; they're just tarted up dyno queens, or at best, 1/4 mi drag cars. You've been sold the oldest line of BS there is.


Pay to play. I don't expect you to believe me. If you find a tuner that can add turbo to NA ME7, i'd love for you to post logs. Until you have literally tuned your own ECU, you are at the mercy of others. Nothing you think is true is necessarily true.

I'd argue a 1000hp car is easier to tune. It's a one trick pony.

@nyet you forget that VR6 is generally transverse (at least on 8P), I don't see a 2.7T going into the car at that orientation.

Define big power ;D
Completely stock engine, ~1bar boost, can make around 500hp. I would not call that total waste of time.
Of course without custom code changes, it's a giant hack of all hacks, but it "works" and drives just fine.
Honestly though i wouldn't recommend that to anybody.

I was being more or less facetious, aimed more at the VR6->B5S4 crowd

VR>BS - Sounds about right!  ;)

Just thinking - the German TUV approved R32T ones are both with and without boost control aren't they? Does he even need these parts?

Are any such mods truly hacks too? The "brains" only see one way and so long as it makes sense in that way?? Or are we getting into semantics/bollocks - delete as applicable?

Speaking of which, I stumbled across some old notes in an old pad on SY_T and such earlier which may help point some noobs in the right direction of what you'd have to look into regarding air/pedal etc, throwing the pad out so took a quick screeny - barely legible to me mind you, so good luck!  ;)

First of all, there are sooo many R28T/R30T/R32T/R33T/R36T with Me7 running. Pls if someone don´t want to help, its ok but then be quite. The Opinion the tuner is shit or its impossible to run properly a NA -> Turbo with Me7 is just wrong. So many project are running until 1000Ps totaly daily juse. The Companys or people who are building this are doing it very simple. They don´t integrate a Fuel and map sensor and running only with the air mass meter from the RS4. So they don´t check the fuel pressure and use a catch tank with a stronger Fuelpump with Fuel pressure regulator. Next step they dont need or don´t implement a map sensor, they only use the air mass meter to calculate the boost. its not perfect but works. The last point is they can´t regulate the boost with the N75 with the Me7.1.1, they use additional boost controlers. The fuel pressure sensor is not important for me, nice to have but not important. The Map sensor is for the tuner nice to have and easier to handle the boost. But also not dramatic, it´s possibile to calculate the boost because i have a closed boost pressure circuit with the RS4 AMM. The important point for me is to integrate the N75 functions from a Me7 Turboengine like the 2.7T into my ECU. The map sensor is the same point. I hoped i can transfer the existing code parts from the 2.7T. The fuel pressure sensor is just for a safe back system and yes totaly costum because no fucking engine with the Me7 has it. But when a costum modding is so complicated it´s not important. But to include the existing functions like map sensor and N75 must be possible.

At least many informations and Videos of existing cars with Turbomod and ME7. I hoped i could do it nicer with no additional boost controler or totaly no boost controling.

https://www.hgp-turbo.de/files/presseberichte/r32_V.pdf (https://www.hgp-turbo.de/files/presseberichte/r32_V.pdf)
https://www.hgp-turbo.de/files/presseberichte/R32V495PS.pdf (https://www.hgp-turbo.de/files/presseberichte/R32V495PS.pdf)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RffM41Lhhk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RffM41Lhhk) <- he use a additional boost controler...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilqlLYXT4ck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilqlLYXT4ck) <- Rothe is one of the companys who are modding the enigne from NA-> Turbo but also additional Boost controler and no Map and Fuel Sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cNhmOpOZM0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cNhmOpOZM0) <- Next daily use R32 Turbo Me7 without Map, fuel, and additional boost controler

So please if youre only here to say not possible, only dyno runs one time... search an other threat or hobby. Next point my built will be working, its pretty much the same as the modded cars in the videos. These mods are no witchcraft but i don´t like the little thinks and how they solved these problems.

Go then buy the tuning at HGP and do not spam this forum.
This forum is for DIY. You do not understand anything and you do not want to understand.
But you already think you know everything.

No one can help you because your questions are BS.

I think youre missing the entire point it all requires custom code. you cant simply patch code from one ecu to another it doesnt work like that. also, youd be better off coming up with your own boost pid logic anyway vs trying to port anything from a 2.7t. In order to get the car to run in boost isnt all that hard at all to be honest. find load caps and up them find mxn tables and up those. tune your load table for boost, have a maf sensor housing large enough to read the air flow your engine is producing. the other option is to underscale the maf. maf underscale sucks will cause part throttle drivability options. however,  the rest is like tuning any me7 car. If you have a manual gear box then it end with the engine calibration if dsg then youll need to tune that as well too. Why not post your original file? why not post work that youve done? pictures of the build. people are more receptive when youre nice vs combative. just my 2c.

Thx @RBPE and @Marty you both are the only person here who wants to help! Yes its a manual, that makes all a bit easier. Ok i try to calculate the air flow to choose a right map sensor. The reason why i dont post my original file ist that i had a old Me7 and distroyed my old ME7 accidently and buy a newer once for the lane assist mod. For this i need a ME7.1.1 with the ST10 Chip. This ME7.1.1 was from a 3.2L TT with a compressor mod. But a mod without boost conrolling, only working over the AMM. So worthless for me and these threat. I set a NA software from a friend (also A3 8P 3.2L NA) over it to give it to the tuner. So he can write a start software to check if my turbomod is done properly. After a short start and checking the oil, the car go to the tuner for the final software.  But these start software is realy basic and only for checking if i built the engine correctly.

@prj you don´t get it right? I dont like how HGP solved the problems i mentioned. So why should i go to it? Next point is i do everything on my own and if i don´t know it i will learn it. That why and how i built my car. Youre just toxic and try to present you as a big player but at the end you only write thinks that doesn´t help. congretiolations to you buddy.

This might sound a stupid question, but why not use a bosch me7.5? 

I do not know of any versions of FI me7.5 that work with vr6.

audi did everyone a huge disservice by never turbocharging a vr6 (that I know of). Perhaps intentional.

Because ME7.5 runs 4 bangers?


and yes probably who knows.

Prj's the one who's put up the boost/N75 code implementation in the reverse engineering area by the way Chris.

Would an st10 work on an older c167? I thought there were architectural/protocol/trap/timeout variances which would make it a ball-ache? Then there's hfm size differences, return(less) fuel, any fsi related aspects not on others etc - I just assumed that it would always be easier/better to use one from the same era.

As for 1.8T use, yeah, couple of cylinders missing, not sure of volume of air per cyl differences but if one of the basic maths like that is out that would make it a PITA from the start if not changed. Cam timing variances, ESKONF, gear/torque/traction etc - all make it unviable, prior to any architectural type differences.

Ohh I see.  Just looked it up  The Audi TT 3.2l has me7.1.1.  And mine 1.8 has a me7.5.  I did not know this, I thought that version was just an oldy and that the newer version 7.5 was fitted to 3.2L, where the confusion lies as mine has N75 etc.  The other thing I've seen though is in the English funktion data sheet v7.3.1  is a lot of parameters for extra cylinders.  For example:

1187 FFTEV1 freeze frame table: injector power stage 1
1187 FFTEV2 freeze frame table: injector power stage 2
1187 FFTEV3 freeze frame table: injector power stage 3
1187 FFTEV4 freeze frame table: injector power stage 4
1187 FFTEV5 freeze frame table: injector power stage 5
1187 FFTEV6 freeze frame table: injector power stage 6
1187 FFTEV7 freeze frame table: injector power stage 7
1187 FFTEV8 freeze frame table: injector power stage 8


 I have not found the English me7.5 doc yet.  But anyway I'm guessing with a lot of other parameters this would not be easy?  The reason I ask is I had hopes to fit this here ECU to a V8 ford down the road because the one that is in it is crap.  Anyway sorry for the intrusion.  Carry on.....

If you can't see these things you need to contribute to the forum more folks!

I think someone ran the 7.5 FR through some translator, not sure if this is right page but it's on the forum somewhere.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=400.45

The problems start at the ecu architecture and the configurations, so no. of cyl's, volume of air getting in them, sensors etc . Then maths/logic thereafter is just that - you start with a wrong number, the rest will just get worse. Of course this being a coder heavy forum you'll get the tech but these are the basics 1st!

I put up the me7.1.1 ssp in the noobs guide area if people want to educate themselves on it?

It is really sad that no constructor ever ran motorsports with a homulgated FI VR6 and a bosch ECU

VAG being mega lame, for sure. IMO this is what the B6/B7 S4/RS4 should have been, or a 4.2tt.

If i shit on vr6 and their nut swingers this is why. No racing heritage whatsoever (just like the hilariously lame B6/B7), just a bunch of hacks who don't know what they are doing.

There are a few FI standalone vr6s out there that aren't shit hackjobs, though.

https://youtu.be/bB7fgX6H9_M

As you spoke about the German TÜV, the only way to get a bulletproof TÜV certification including a legitimate emissions certificate is either putting the car into a test labour, or use a complete turbo kit that is sold by ISO 9001 certificated company.

You are lucky your car is of EU2 emissions class, otherwise OBD2 is a must have and ALL standalones are useless anyways.
Additionally an EU4 class emissions pass is nearly impossible with the turbocharger extracting too much heat to get the catalytic converters up to temperature.
Thats why superchargers are often used here in Germany, you can keep the exhaust side stock.

Just because some tuners "make it work" doesnt mean its well done. For example, every boosted M52-M54 BMW engine had the MAF linearization scaled down and never knew real world values until 2017. This can somewhat be compared with the 5120mbar hack from ME7.5.

Afaik there are hardcoded load limits in ME7.1.1 that require program code changes, so its not only tuning, like changing calibration values.

You could take a look at Bosch Motorsport ECUs, like MS4, but still, that wont eliminate the shady TÜV engineer you need for that.

Or sell your Audi and buy a BMW, our 6 cylinder ECUs can be boosted ;D

I guess china now has a 2.5 vr6 turbo

Don´t know if I get your item correct, but VW-Motorsport run the VR6 with Bosch ECU in VW NewBeetle Cup in 2002..

AFAIR they used stock ME7.1.1

IF I remember right, rothe-motorsport bough a custom ME7.1.1. SW from Bosch with boost controler statemashine added. It is used on a Golf4.
Application should be quite poor, but this was done by Rothe and not by Bosch.

Never took a look into these parameters myself, but a college of me did, after he was asked, because of car does not perform well in part-load and in transitions from part- to full-load

You really do hate VR6 owners.

Not the owners as much as the shady VR6 tuners misrepresenting their work.

Your being too specific. He hates VR6 / B6-B7 S4 / Anything with a V8 / Anyone not willing to DIAY (do it all yourself) / Anyone asking for help on B&P / All People that didnt read the terribly named section "Noob" really well named.  Its nothing personal to the VR6 though. :)

Yeah I am fairly sure he can forget about legitimacy with turbo conversion lol, unless you got serious connections or money I dont know. I have done similar thing with my car ( being 1.8 not vr6) because the laws dont allow for simple engine swapping here, however I am technically allowed to change everything about the engine except I have to keep the original block, this is ofcourse if you care about that stuff. IMO once you start tuning you move into grey areas with laws lolz.

And yes like Marty said there are load caps , also some other calculations are different cause of SY_turbo ofcourse.

IMO , his options are : standalone so his "tuner" can tune it or paying someone serious cash to do it if you wanna keep everything factory like, if not you got the DIY option but you will have to accept the compromises.

Pretty dead on.

Some notable v8 exceptions:

v8 tt
r8 v8

the rs4 v8 is ok. I'll stop hating on it if it makes you happy. Not even remotely tunable, but it's a good motor out of the box.

Oh, and nothing wrong with fi+vr6+standalone.

It's the ME hacks (and shitty NA 3.2s) that are trash.

For the record I have been to HGP's facility and ridden in their tuned bi-turbo R32 and I can say that it performed flawlessly like the OE calibrated vehicle using their recalibration of the ME 7.1.1 ECU. It should be understood that they use a breakout box with real time display and spend weeks if not months fine tuning the calibration on the dyno and street after altering considerable OE code. Proper VR6 forced induction calibration vs. a hack tune requires a lot of effort and costs. Because HGP is selling turbo packages they had to reengineer the ME 7.1.1 or their engines would run as poorly as most other hack tuned VR6 forced induction engines. The engine isn't the issue, it's that there was never a FI version of it so the ECU code is all wrong for FI and must be rewritten if you want to be able to properly calibrate a FI VR6 engine.

Interesting, thanks for the info!

I assume, they use the customized Bosch-SW, witch was made for Rothe

There IS a "orginal" FI VR6 software, but it wasn´t made for VAG, it is done for Rothe..
 ;)

Must be nice to have the source code for Motronic

Or not; a lot of proprietary code bases (and their build processes) are clusterfuck.

Don´t know, if it was clear enough:
Rothe brough directly form Bosch

So of cause "they" (Bosch) have the source code for (theire) Motronic

I’m wondering if it would not be a little easier to emulate all the voltages/signals going into the ecu?  Rather than trying to blow an engine up.  Maybe it would make it easier to work out the math/logic.  Sounds very complex and time consuming though either way. 

That's exactly what underscaling does, and its trivial to do by adjusting the correct maps in ME to start with *with no ASM changes*. It has zero utility except for those who can't even do that.

Just out of interest does anyone know what software bosch uses to write the source code?

Are you asking about what compiler they use (which does not write source code) or what editor/SCM?

The latter seems somewhat irrelevant.

Well I was thinking it might be their own proprietary editor. With such a thing they might have some shortcuts embedded? Something like an object library but only for ecus.

Proprietary editor? For editing source code? What value would a proprietary editor have over any other editor used to edit source?

Do you mean compiler?

No I mean editor.  Like mplab  has for microchip microcontrollers.  Or Texas Instruments ccstudio for their chips.  I say editor, but they call them Interactive Development Environment.  Benefits one not having to pay a license for other software Parties would be one.  Not having to rely on out sourced software updates.  They build their own vag software so I can’t see why it would stop there.   It would just seem like there would be a coding environment that is more geared toward ecu programming.   When vw got in trouble with diesel emissions software bypass I only heard Bosch name being mentioned.  Maybe I’m wrong.  I don’t know. 

Most IDEs are garbage, especially proprietary ones, since they do not play well with SCMs

Bosch got there own "editor": ETAS Ascet

Ist quite simular the Mathlab simuling.
Screenshots take from Ascet show the block diagrams in Frunktionsrahmen.

1. capter of Frunktionsrahmen desibes functional blocks used in Ascet.

Yep that looks like it would be it.  The company is owned by bosch since 1994.   I’m surprised there’s an English version. Thought it would be german only.  It’s in c lingo programming wise.  I was also reading about asam a21 files which might be part of this software.

Yes and no:

Damos is ETAS (Bosch) specific description , A2L is more general..

So, A2L are supported by most application tools, Damos mostly by INCA

But at the end, you can deside in witch way application- and messasurement-values are defined: A2L or Damos

I have not come across issues with ides much.  But I have only ever written some small programs for work.  Which ides have you been using? 

Sorry to chime in (I know this is an old thread), but using simple logic that Bentley GT/FS W12TT are basically two VR6 engines on a single crank ran by twin ME7.1.1 ECUs... might be worth looking in this direction.


This is quote for Phaeton W12 (NA), but Bentley uses similar design just with all the things required for FI engine.