NefMoto

Hello,

The car is a 2002, Audi TT, 225, Me7.5, BAM UK spec.

I've built a Water - Methanol controller with change lights that also records the maximum values for Speed, W-M delivery, RPM, IAT & Boost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W4zOCoSWGc

Now I need to get the data from the car to the controller.

After some trial & error and some reading, I have found that the car has both K-Line & Can – Bus, the Can – Bus is not accessible via the ODB2 port :(.

I've managed to tap the Can - Bus from the back of the radio and found an example of how to get the K-Line data from the ODB2 port.

https://github.com/ibanezgomez/FISBlocks#material-needed-to-build-the-fisblocks

So I'm at the point where I need some help on the following questions (I've spent a couple of days trawling the internet without any luck on these already);

K - Line
- Is the K-Line data reading fast enough for the change lights and controlling the delivery of the WM whilst sending the speed, IAT & Boost data as well? (I think it should be as the Me7Logger works pretty well, but that uses a different mechanism to collect the data to VCDS - https://github.com/nyetwurk/ME7L/blob/master/doc/README.txt).

Can - Bus
- Can I just keep with tapping the back of the radio or is this Can data filtered and I need to tap at the ECU?
- Are the Can - Bus values I want broadcast & if not how do I ask for them?
- Deciphering the Can data, I've found the speed ID & how to decipher the speed value but not has any luck with the other values required. Is there a list anywhere?

Preferably I would like to use the Can - Bus as then I can still use Me7Logger, but if I can't I can live with it.

Any pointers, experience or help would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Use motor canbus for that
Its connected to the dashboard

Runs at 1 mbps
FR module CAN describes all messages
Its simply broadcasting network. No need for sending any handshake or request to get the data

Cheers,

You'll have to help me out with "FR module"?

Also as the car was on the cusp of the Can - Bus regulations, I don't think the ID's & data is as per the regulation standards, (happy to be corrected though).

Just looked up the pin outs for the cluster & found 3 CAN pins for the power train,

- CAN high, power train (+)
- CAN high, power train (-)
- CAN high, power train (screening)

The CAN high is high speed, the (+) & (-) are CAN high & low, do you know what the (screening) is?

Also found 0x351 has the speed and 0x353 has the RPM, just got to find the IAT & Boost?

This post suggests that for the Me7.5 the Boost is not available on the Can - Bus, so probably not the IAT either, is this correct?

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9956.0title=

The CAN - BUS tap I recorded from the back of the Radio didn't have ID 0x555 which I believe has the Boost values in it, could that be because it's Convenience BUS?

Thanks

behind the radio is CAN Infotainment

FR is the funktionzrahmen available at the docs section (hope youll able to find this)
I dont remember any screening wire there

Boost and iat are not available via canbus (could be implemented via custom code anyway)

Cheers,

Knowing that has saved me a lot of time chasing my tail.

I'm nearly there with the Speed & RPM from the Canbus (I can get the data just need to convert it to decimal in the coding), I'm going to give the K-Line a go as I've got all the kit and see if it's quick enough, if not I'll tap the MAP & IAT.

I think it would be a big can of worms trying to enable the Boost & IAT via recoding the ECU.

Thanks for your help:)

PS

The FR looks heavy going.

Lot of time for what? You have description of all messages in FR and possibility to dump canbus data. Its a 5 min deal
Kline is a waste if time in that case

There are rl, wped etc iirc. Use them instead of boost

this may help - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/VW-CAN

This is easy to read  ;)

Do you have some similar PDF for newer cars??

Unfortunately no :( ,  there si little more in MED9.1 FR about seite 4049
I didt find anything similar in MED17, simos or EDC FR
If I come across it I will post here
Also there was one more document here on forum about CAN-BUS but I can't remeber where

Everyone thanks for the info.


OK,

I see where you're coming from, use the relative air fill to determine the the actual boost.

Here's where I'm at;

I have the Can Data from the back of the radio (not sure if the tap location makes any difference), edited extract below with all the identifiers I get & some information I've gathered from trawling the internet.

Standard ID:   0x261   DLC:   8   Data:   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20      0x261   DIS_TEXT_line1
Standard ID:   0x263   DLC:   8   Data:   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20   0x20      0x263   DIS_TEXT_line2
Standard ID:   0x271   DLC:   1   Data:   0x03                                                                   0x271   Ignition
Standard ID:   0x351   DLC:   8   Data:   0x08   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x72   0x72   0x00      0x351   Speed, Reverse - Forward
Standard ID:   0x353   DLC:   6   Data:   0x00   0xBE   0x0E   0x7A   0x00   0x00                           0x353   RPM, Water Temp
Standard ID:   0x428   DLC:   6   Data:   0x19   0x01   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00            0x428   
Standard ID:   0x439   DLC:   6   Data:   0x08   0x01   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00                           0x439   Radio
Standard ID:   0x621   DLC:   3   Data:   0x00   0x10   0x4F                                                   0x621   
Standard ID:   0x623   DLC:   8   Data:   0x00   0x21   0x46   0x28   0x02   0x06   0x20   0x04      0x623   Time
Standard ID:   0x627   DLC:   8   Data:   0x00   0x39   0x39   0x39   0x39   0x08   0x08   0x08      0x627   
Standard ID:   0x630   DLC:   8   Data:   0x01   0xFF   0x03   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00      0x630   
Standard ID:   0x635   DLC:   3   Data:   0x1A   0x00   0x0F                                                 0x635   Brightness knob
Standard ID:   0x653   DLC:   3   Data:   0x04   0x02   0x04                                                   0x653   Language/Area
Standard ID:   0x660   DLC:   8   Data:   0x01   0x0C   0x4A   0x09   0xC2   0x29   0x18   0xDA   0x660   
Standard ID:   0x661   DLC:   8   Data:   0x89   0x01   0x12   0xA0   0x00   0x00   0x00   0x00      0x661   Audio Source, Radio On - Off
Standard ID:   0x663   DLC:   8   Data:   0x01   0x01   0x12   0x00   0xA0   0x00   0x00   0x00      0x663   


I have both the FRE07E0 RTP.PDF and the can_v423.pdf docs,

None of the identifiers in the can_v423.pdf match my identifiers.

In the FRE07E0 RTP.PDF is for the ME7.3 I found a section called CAN signal list, but it doesn't have the identifiers or conversion formulas listed, (Am I missing something obvious?).

How do I get hold of the information to identify the correct CAN data and convert it?

It seems tantalisingly close just missing the key piece of information. I thought the hard bit would be getting the Can data from the car.

PS
I'll still have to tap the sensor for the IAT.

Thanks

Again its not the motor canbus.
Conversion formulas could be found in FR 7.1 ( CAN module )

280 288 38A and so on

Back of the radio is comfort CAN. Connect to the correct CAN - PTCAN.

AHH, I get it now,

The Can gateway filters the messages (I did ask in my first post - Can I just keep with tapping the back of the radio or is this Can data filtered and I need to tap at the ECU?).

I’ve looked through the doc “Audi_R4-5V_T_132kW_ME7.pdf”

Dargestellter Umfang:
Ausgewahlte Blocke:       ABK, APP, FB, FDEF
System:                  SG ME7.5
Projekt:                  Audi R4-5V T Quereinbau 132kW ME7.1
Projektnummer:       5/4019.00;35
Bearbeiter:          Alexander Frick
Abteilung:          K3/EAF4
Telefon:                  33871
Ausgabedatum:       03.01.01

Firstly is this the same information as for a ME7.5 BAM 165 kW, if not where can I find the correct document?

As you have a lot more experience than I on this and you are sure that the IAT & Boost are not available on a 2002, Audi TT, 225, Me7.5, BAM UK spec. I suspect that the doc I’m looking at is the wrong doc?

Assuming this doc has the information applying to my car, I have found that IAT might be sent over the CAN (page 1642), see IAT pic. (oder Ansauglufttemp = or intake air temp)

And Boost is sent over the can (page 1648), see Boost pic.

I couldn't find rl.
 
So the question is can I use this doc or is there a different doc to use for my car?

Also going back to the K-Line, VisualMeLogger refreshes about 20 times a second whilst logging 10's of readings. Everyone's saying it slow but that speed would be fast enough for what I need, Am I missing something?

Thanks for your patience.

Again. (And again)
This is different canbus network. Hook it at the cluster (or dashboard idk how it named in uk)

Pvdkds is not present in can messages. Youll see it when dump that message. Its 3 bytes long and marked in FR with *S* , check what it means (for the future use iirc)

There is a few unused bytes in 0x488 (iirc) message  which could be used to send any variables with custom routine on a manual transmission cars. Pm me if you interested in this (not for free)

This doc is fine but not all messages are active. But you can activate them of course. Also some things are not present in CAN messages as they are for future use.
For controlling WMI all you need is RPM and Load. Because the maps in the ECU are also based off of Load.

As said above, it's nothing to do with gateway filtering, they are two completely different CAN Bus networks in the car running at different speed even.

OK, different buses.

I checked before posting, *S* page 1634 *S* wird gesendet = will be sent - *(S)* zuk¨unftig geplant = planned in the future.

Both values are *S*, suppose the only way to be sure is to tap the power train Bus and look for it, this will have to wait for the weekend.

looking for the load value I've searched the CAN 51.570 section of the doc for rl and Luftfüllung but couldn't find anything, could it be listed as something else?

Also going back to the K-Line, VisualMeLogger refreshes about 20 times a second whilst logging 10's of readings. Everyone's saying it slow but that speed would be fast enough for what I need, Am I missing something?

Thanks again.

Yes you are missing something.
Any powertrain control should not be done off of diagnostics.
Not only are you eliminating the ability to log the car when your thing is active, but also on K-Line you can not diagnose any module in the car...

All kind of power train control must go through the PTCAN. K-Line is not even an option.

Cool, Cheers.

Hello,

I tapped the power train bus yesterday and as expected the Boost & IAT aren’t there:( (FRE07E0 RTP.PDF can’t be completely relied upon for the PQ34 platform).

Standard ID: 0x588       DLC: 3  Data: 0x08 0x00 0x80

So unless someone knows of a quick easy way to enable the Motor 7 messages on the bus, my next plan is,

As part of my project I’ll have a W-M low level warning which will require wiring back to the Arduino, so running a few more wires won’t make much difference.
I already have a separate boost gauge (uses voltage as a signal) which I can tap, this will give me my boost pressure reading.

All good so far.

As for the IAT I’m pretty sure I can’t tap this sensor as it uses resistance, this leaves me with either adding a dedicated IAT sensor or calculating the IAT from the values I can obtain.
I would like to calculate the IAT but not sure what the formula would be, I think it might use MAF, RPM, Ambient air temp, boost, engine capacity, load but what it would look like is beyond me at this point, any assistance with the formula would be most appreciated.

I have also considered adding a dedicated IAT sensor and then sending the readings for the Boost, IAT & W-M level back to another Arduino in the engine bay and adding these readings as custom Can messages to the Power Train bus, this would be a neat solution but I would be just making work for myself and adding complexity.

Thanks

Wtf? Just use load

I see where you're coming from but,

How do I calculate the load from the available values?

               ml_w
rml = --------------- * 100%
              MLMAX

I can't see either rml, rl, ml_w or MLMAX listed in the FR as can messages?
                
Also I want some more granularity and to display the speed, RPM, boost & IAT together with recording the maximum values.

Also the FR "Audi_R4-5V_T_132kW_ME7.pdf" says the RPM is Byte 4 & 3 in message ID 280, but it's not it's 5 & 4.

I have also noticed that after blipping the throttle the RPM drops down to double or even single digits, is that supposed to happen?

Thanks

0x280 byte 2,  you can use this value for load.
 You don't need to calculate anything if you IRL and IOP are right

If FR say rpm is at 3 and 4 than there it is

Your a gent :)

So is 0x280 byte 2 rl?

Getting some where now, see attached - the RPM is definitely 5 & 4, 4 & 3 doesn't make any sense.

Not sure what is happening at the start of the file, probably something to do with where the key is in the ignition.

PS
The car wasn't moving when this was taken.

It is 3 and 4. LoHi byteorder.
If you only spent 1% of the time thinking instead of writing walls of text...

I'm confused,

Counting the bytes 0 -7 then it's 4 -3, but the FR uses 1 - 8, using 0 -7 would place the other values at the wrong Byte.

Have a look at the spread sheet I posted 4 - 3 doesn't add up, using bytes 5 - 4 and byte count 1 - 8 is the way it appears to work?






 

Lets make this:
If you see 64(byte3) and 13(byte4)
How much RPM is that?

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Sorry must be going mad, it is 4 - 3, must have messed up the formula in excel at some point.

I'll go away & beat myself with a big stick.

Or talk to the wife which can be just as painful. ;) ;)

Thanks for your patience.

That would be oddly satisfying to watch.
But at least you realized the problem.