NefMoto

Hello @ all,
please apologize my English, I do my very best :) I´m really new here but all topics I read about were very well documented! Thanks for this!
I could step into reading out the ECU´s flash, understanding Tuner Pro and ME7 Tuning Wizard and finally I was able to flash the ECU.
Nevertheless I´m facing some issues.
I bought the car (S3 8L APY) incl. tune, but didn´t know that it´s tuned.
The car had many problems (as usual for old 1.8Ts) which are actually solved. But know the car have an overboost issue.
At ~70% throttle and up to WOT there is no regulation of boost pressure. In VCDS I´m always seeing 95% WGDC despite of exceeding requested boost by ~400mBar and more.
1st I thought it´s the N75, so bought a new one.(http://[img])[/img] Result: Always seeing 95% WGDC @ thottle > 70% but actual boost bearly reaching requested boost.
So my opinion: The car was tuned while it had some issues like boost leak and so on and the tuner just tried to reach 260hp some how. Now all issues are fixed and the regulation is confused.

I attach the readout tables from the tuned ECU. I already changed the last two rows of IMX back to stock because they were completely at 95.00.
I assume that the PID is maxing out. But if so.. Why?

Can anyone give an advise, based on the pictures?

Thanks and BR
Martin

How about reading the stickies?

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=18323.0title= (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=18323.0title=)

Hi,

I´m sorry, just had not the chance to log anything because it just overboosted. I had a look on S4 Wiki again and re-checked KFLDIMX.
In my opinion x-axis didn´t fit to the setup. I know, it´s not wanted to post screenshots.
I just post these in case anyone has the same issues.
Now I will try to fine tune and if I get further issues I will reply reasonable logs.

You might as well stop posting here until you read the stickies and post proper logs using ME7Logger or alternatively VehiCAL.

Nobody is going to waste their time on your screenshots, this is how it is here.

Here we go. I hope these logs are okay for the beginning. All three are the same pull in 4th gear.
I guess, the car has a knock issue... But why?
The Inj on time is at the limit too. --> But I have installed adjustable gas pressure regulator and wideband lambda. (AFR is at ~11,8 @ 5600upm)
I´d go this way:
1. going ahead with KFLDIMX
2. Ignition KFZW --> check x-axis and lower some values because KFLDIMX was a little increased (1,3 to 1,55Bar)
3. Fueling

Do you need mor infos? What´s your opinion? Where should I start? Should the maximum value of the x-axis meet my calculated maximum value (e.g. load in KFZW ends at 185 --> max load actually set to 209 in LDRXN)

man just start posting logs not those screenshots. This data is useless plotted like that. R

Also, your boost request is capped up at 2550... what do you expect?

You did not post a single log, only more useless screenshots.

retard alert!

I´m sry I didn´t get that I have to put .csv-File in the thread.
Attached are some pulls in 4th gear. Please tell me, if other values should be logged or if should change the way of logging.

I´m not sure where to start. There are some issues, but what should be improved first?
- I could improve the boost rising over the target
- I could improve the ign timing

Which air mass is the real one which is also displayed in VCDS? There are two/three different values which I logged. But 160g/s seems to be a little bit low and 260g/s quite high.

Sorry,

you opened and saved that log in a way that is it somehow fkd. propably excel?
i fixed it and had a look. there is not much to see because you dont know how to log and what to log.

have a look here to identify missing variables
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9362.msg83008#msg83008

log 3rd gear wot from 2000 to redline (if possible)
in your current log you are out of fuel below 5000 rpm

And don't screw around with the log, post exactly what comes from ME7Logger. Do not open it, edit it, save it, make screenshots of it or do anything else to it before posting.

Hi at all,

today I logged three pulls. I put in all values which were requested in other posts. I hope that´s ok.
Please, be so kind and have look on it. I didn´t start far below 2500upm and went not higher then ~6000upm.
It feels strong, but not good. I'm a little afraid of breaking with rods. I can't really judge the performance.

If your opinion from the log is that´s okay to go from 1800 to 6800, please let me know.

You are asking for too much timing, and you are at the injector limit well before 5000 rpm

You are skating on thin ice.

Thanks for the comment.
I already lowered the timings, so I will lower them again.
Regarding injecors... I installed adjustable fuel fuel pressure regulator and AFR display as I didn´t know what the tuning is doing.

So next steps:

- Lower the timings?
- Adjust fuel map to higher fuel pressure? - KRKTE?! - But for KRKTE I´d need the adress :)

yes

You should not have started tuning w/o knowing KRTE or let alone TOUCHING your fuel pressure regulator.

Yes in the S4 Wiki it was told that "fuelling first". I thought 1st getting my boost problem corrected then fuelling.
I found KRKTE... Thanks to this forum :)

Is my assumption right that fuelling in general is assumed to be linear and small deviations are corrected later?
If I increased the fuel pressure by 20%, I have to decrease KRKTE by 20% (so decrease the injector on time by 20%) and look how it is going?

Of course with a view on the AFR gauge.

Some additional questions are coming up.
I can´t really understand, why injector on time is such high.

"KRKTE - Airmass to fuel injector on time conversion based on injector size and fuel pressure (primary fueling)"

Means:
My original injectors are at their limit because of measured airmass or the mixture is to fat.


APY´s original injectors should max out at ~280-300hp. The AFR gauge shows ~11.8:1 @ 6000upm

I can hardly imagine that I am scratching at 300hp with this stage 1 turbo...

Dont change KRKTE and dont change your fuel pressure.
KRKTE tells the ecu how big your injectors are. In your case @ 3bar fixed fuel pressure regulator.

Log a stock file and check your injector duty again. Most likely your fuel pump is stock, very old and your fuel filter is old and clogged too.
300hp on stock injectors is a facebook myth.

The higher your boost pressure is, the harder your fuelpump has to work.
Buy a DW65v Pump or some fake of this type of AWD fuel pump and install it properly so that every hose in your tank can keep up with 5bar (3+boost).

My experience with these injectors are that on pump fuel the max with a 4 bar fpr is 280hp.
With 3 bar fpr even less.

What... Aiaiai :D That's not what I wanted to hear.

I use 98 to 102 Oct.

You need bigger injectors and upgraded fuel pump if the turbo is not stock.
I would leave FPR alone.

If turbo is stock 4 bar fpr is enough, but you need to replace fuel pump with new one if it is still the original one.

Also if your gauge has analog output (I hope it does), then connect it instead of rear o2 sensor to rear o2 input, and configure ME7Logger to log it.
Then you can log AFR.

Or switch ECU to wideband for easier tuning.

Okay, thought already about replacing ECU with BAM ECU.

I replaced following parts with new ones:
- MAF sensor
- Upgrade fuel pump Ultimate solutions US320-4
- ne fuel filter
- Lambda probe
- SUV
- pressure hoses/clanps
- 100cpi 3" DP
...

Puhhh I think with wideband it would be much easier...
Could get the inj on time a little bit lower but not below 22ms..
Another point is that Air mass doesn´t go over 220g/s.. Seems

I lowered KRKTE by 12,5% and set fuel pressure to 3,3bar @ atmosphere pressure

But if your suggestion is not to change fuel pressure, I will buy injectors. But which ones?
So trying to go on with ori injectors or use upgrade?

That's not much better. Reduce boost until you get proper injectors.

I´ll do :)

Hello again,

until the new injectors arrive (ordered 650ccm to be prepared for k04-064), I will try to unterstand the
ECU better.

I checked data from Bosch for fuel flow at 4bar, calculated KRKTE accordingly and set the FPR to 4 Bar.
Idling seems okay and inj. on time is around 20-22ms at 6000upm. Yes I understand... Injector are really maxed out.

But I still try to understand the boost curve. According to the log, WGDC should be set to 95% until ~3000 upm are reached. I did this and my Boost pressure gauge (measuring at intake manifold) shows an overshoot to ~1,8bar between 3000 and 3700 upm. Okay, max WGDC should be set shortly before 3000upm, means rescaling y-axis in KFLDIMX.

Why is the overshoot not visible in the log?

And the log.

There is no control, of N75. Is CWMDAPP zero or not?

Also at 6000ms 20ms = constantly open. If it is 22 ms or 100 ms or any other value it does not change anything. 20ms = they never close, it is constant signal.
100% is your maximum duty cycle and above that no extra fuel is injected, so it goes lean.

You also have 0.72 lambda request up top. Probably it does not need that much.

Thanks for all your answers.

I rechecked all my logs. there is one thing I´m really wondering about.
During spool shortly before reaching target boost, there is a straight line of actual boost (green circle). I thought this is under boost and I have to ajust KFLDIMX to reacht req. boost earlier.

But it´s the same in all logs and my Boost gauge says that boost is reached at that point in the red circle and from this point on the boost is regulated. No overshoot or something else.

So why is it not in the logs? Is there some dead time or switched of boost control in the ECU?

From your log you don't have any boost control.
It's riding IMAX the entire time and is unable to do anything.

Set your entire LDRPID module to stock and then calibrate from scratch based on guides here.
Making random changes to IMX or LDRL is a waste of time.

Before you do fix your fueling.

Hi,

today I got my injectors. It´s Bosch 0280158123 (630ccm).

I flashed an ori .bin-file and adjusted before:
KRKTE to 0.0576 --> calculated like S4 Wiki says.
TVUB to the values I got from this forum.
I left TEMIN alone.
FKKVS all values to 1

Started the car, waited some minutes in idle and drove some KMs. Feels good so far.

@prj
I´ve a question regarding your post before:
Where can you see that there is no boost control? Boost is following LDRXN/IMX like programmed. KFLDHBM was maxed out by the tuner.

Hmm okay, yes, it´s following IMX. But where can you see that it´s following IMX and not LDRXN? But this is normal condition under WOT or? See S4 Wiki excerpt below.

In my log rlmax is following rlmx, means boost is restricted by LDRXN?! --> as programmed

LDRL wasn´t changed by me or the tuner.
I only changed IMX in the areas where the log reported over/underboost.

I refer to this part of S4 Wiki/Did I understand wrong?:
"If your actual boost is not meeting requested boost, you may have to increase the PID I limit for 850 and 1000mBar. In general, you want KFLDIMX to follow what you expect your WGDC to be in the steady state, so after peak boost, you should set this to where you want the WGDC to settle. Note that PID trims (I-Regulation adaptation) may alter this limit. It should also roughly follow the profile of requested boost when it is tracking LDRXN. That is to say, if you have a flat max (WOT) boost request, you should have a flat KFLDIMX. The reason IMX is so important in ME7 is that in the steady state, P result is near zero and D is scheduled out with B_lddy. This means that I dominates.

On a WOT pull, I is maxed out due to integrator windup (accumulated error) so it is simply following IMX."

IMX should not be used as boost control.
PID I should not be maxed and riding limiter

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=12352.0title= (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=12352.0title=)

Now you have effectively no boost control, just a DC limiter, as is visible from your log.
There's nearly no reaction to overboost by the controller or underboost, it's just running fixed dc.

Hi again,

after I had adjusted KRKTE + KFZW + KFLBTS, the car feels better. I could improve the ign retardation.
Requested load peaks @ 220%/4000upm, falling to 170%/6800upm.

KFLBTS seems to be in line with my AFR gauge. Is it to rich?

The next step is to make an effort to check the boost control and understand the linked thread.

The car managed ~230g/s for the first time. The charge air temperature rose by approx. 10 degrees during a pull.
The duty cycle is 72% with the original K04-022 WG actuator.

Can I draw conclusions about the performance from the air mass? In some forums you can read for 1.8T with K03/K04 --> Airmass*1,3= ~PS.
How do I recognize the limit of the turbo?

Do I have to worry about the connecting rod? - I assume so?!?!

Edit: As prj already said.. There is no boost control. By changing LDRXN I only aligned the load curve to the actual boost. --> I should really put some effort in boost regulator :)

Hello,

I hope posting a screenshot is okay in this case.
I read S4 Wiki and the linked thread several times..

What I understood is:

KFLDIMX:
- We assume that a certain boost pressure value is assigned a percentage, regardless of the engine speed.
-- For example of my screenshot: We assume that 884 hpa is 51%

KFLDRL:
- The boost in % is the input for the y-axis
- The output is then the values in the table as WGDC (%) depending on the engine speed

Now I have to tune KFLDRL by logging, an example:

- Tune KFLDRL for 50%
- Calculated boost for 50% = 859hpa
- Set entire KFLDHBN to 1.8594
- Ensure that LDRXN is above KFLDHBN
- Log from 1000 upm to redline
- do this for all percentages
- Adjust KFLDRL or use ME7Tuner

What we do is logging to predict the WGDC for a certain boost and RPM. That's called feed forward an shall improve the reaction and accuracy of the PID.

Am I on the right track?
It´s not that easy to get this together out of all the posts and threads.

Quite not.
- Set entire KFLDHBN to 1.8594
KFLDHBN is max pressure to ambient ratio, so with this you're setting your boost limit to 0,85 bar in "normal" (1 + 0,85) circumstances. You can limit your boost with this map or with ldrxn.

For logging purposes, you need to set your boost request higher than your boost target in order to not get any interventions.

Make your kfldimx linear with maximum cell higher than boost target, then do cwmdapp = 8, and make runs with kfldrapp forcing wgdc from 10 to 95% or max  you can safely run. Then use ldrpidtool and just paste your kfldrl output, thats all

Just do not get any boost interventions during logging, this tool makes it pretty damn easy and accurate.

Thanks for your answer @ratosluaf,

- "Make your kfldimx linear with maximum cell higher than boost target"

I did, or is my KFLDIMX wrong too?

In general I misundestood the 10 to 95% --> I thought limit boost via KFLDHBN and adjust KFLDRL according to the logs.
That way seems to work too, but of course I will try the way you mentioned.