NefMoto

Hi Everyone

I've been doing some reading on the forum regarding mafless setup on a the 1.8t's me 7.5 ECU, if one should unplug the MAF would the ECU just run of the values that it has supplied in that specific MAP? Also to my understanding if one goes mafless the ECU will only add fuel if to lean and not reduce fuel if its to rich?

Reason for my question is that i've got some mates running BT 1.8t's with mafless tune (unitronic) and would kind of like to build my file around the same concept. Would mafless be possible for my setup if we should DIY the map.

This would be for a s3 8l 1.8t me 7.5.

Cheers  :D

Why do you want to run MAFless?

Fashion.

High Fashion!

Created for fools by fools.

MAF-less is doable but I recommend against it.

@matchew - foad  ::)

Anyways my reason for the mafless questioning was South Africa's spares market is pretty over priced and parts like RS4's airflow meters are not easy to come by at all, so it is a option im considering and just wanted to get further input on exactly how it would work, done searches on NM but most thread have comments like Matchew in which are useless.

So order it online.
The insert is like 60 euros. Surely that's not worth busting your balls over?

One question here , I have car with GTX35 , 2 liter stroke and  700hp. I blow MAF every two runs.
Maf is located 65-80cm from turbo . MAf is RS4 insert in 100mm housing , for the moment I run mafless as I cant afford to buy this quantity of MAFs.


Just asking someone with same expirience ? Need to understand why Im blowing im them so fast ....
I know that I can order PROMaf or HPX .... just want to figure it out ....

Thanks ...

You should grow up.....

The MAF on a ME7 system that has a MAF is the MAIN load input, removing it is foolish.

Falling back on to TPS vs RPM - no thanks.

@RS-MAD

Not sure. I have used the RS4 MAF on a few GT35R and GTX35R cars with over 600 PS and never had any problems (of course at top end the MAF is maxed in stock housing...)
Maybe there is some sort of hard vibration going on there?

And yes, the right solution would be to get a Pro-M Pro-Tube.

Perhaps you are running maf without air filter?
If yes this is definitely the reason.

That is a better response then "Created by fools for fools"

I do understand I could import one to south africa with additional customs and so forth but im just trying to get a better understanding on the mafless setup as all the topics under search give no actual information / answer.

Nope , I use air filter , also RS4 maf is in 98mm inside diameter pipe.

Ok, then could be vibration.

I have of course had some "dud" MAF's, that were bad from the start with voltage spikes, and then died quickly.
But I have some cars with >500 PS running them for close to 2 years now, and no problems.

Of course I'm all for a maf setup, but from what I've seen, people unplug maf, and tune out any test/diognostics/dtc's that pop up. Then tune everything else to their needs. Not really as complicated as shops make it seem huh? (Removing of the dtc's anyway, tuning will probably be more of a pain....)

And enjoy your new brake distribution..

I've never done/plan to do it. But why would this be, if you would be so kind Rick?

Because the ECU is in limp mode, so the load signal to the ESP/ABS unit is screwed as well.

Shame some here talk like pros when in fact they're still n00bs.

If your referring to me sir than you would be correct. I am, and will probably always be able to be schooled from someone with more knowledge on here than I. From what I have learned from the only mafless file that I own, is what I posted earlier. I have no interest in a mafless setup, so I didn't bother to look any further. If you would like, I'll be happy to edit my above post with "limited experience with mafless?"
 

I wasn't referring to you ;)

Lol. Well there's a great example of taking someone's text completely out of context on the internet! My apologies...

So who are you referencing then and what side of the mafless / anti mafless discussion do you land on?  I personally do not think mafless and me7 can ever go together with 100% fueling accuracy.  I also am a professional noob, so what now?

No one out side of Bosch is a true master of this stuff, the very nature of the ecu and the hundreds of different ways to make functions interact will always leave people guessing/testing.  If you are calling others noobs then how about you drop some knowledge on everyone.

transverse 1.8Ts running MAFless have no issues with ABS/brake bias, that's what I meant.

I'd love to hear a "pro" describe exactly why anybody would want to run Motronic in speed density.

Me too. MAF conversions FROM speed density are commonplace (in other vehicles). Why exactly would one want to (IMO) downgrade? Maybe I'm being narrow minded here, but removing the MAF from the fueling equation seems foolish, and likely to leave you with less precise tuning.

That being said, I would love to hear arguments to the contrary.

The thing is, it does not really run traditional speed-density when you remove the MAF.
It pretty much runs alpha-n with enhancements.

That's correct ;)

Bosch MS4 looks kinda familiar
It does not support MAF when I spoke with them at autosports show in Jan this year

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Engine_Control_Unit_MS_4_Sport_Datasheet_51_en_2775343627.pdf

When I say motronic, i mean stock motronic ecu.

I would be amazed if bosch designed this oh so familiar looking piece of hardware specifically for motorsport use... as the volumes would not justyfy it.
What it looks like is familiar Me7, offering assorted inputs and outputs, and the mapping software is very familiar in contruction but more detailed.
It would not support maf for motorsport use.  Given this is a high end ecu, and the thick end of £2500 plus extras like dbw support, wideband control etc etc, it would only be professional motorsport teams who could afford to use them. Point being, you dont need a maf to properly tune an engine

Be careful with your definition of motronic. There are ME7 ECU's that from the factory that have no MAF and use MAP as their load base.


Other than on a system that was designed to be use MAF as its load base.

Agree. ECU runs ONLY in alpha-n as the MAP sensor is located outside the manifold... the files I saw make you run alpha-n (with an small map by the way) pretty rich and you Wideband (when it is present) does the rest of the trick

Thanks for additional input, I was not aware than running a mafless setup would perhaps interfere with the ABS system of the car. That in it self is a risk I would not like to take.

If MAFless is what you really want, you would be better off to just run a standalone ecu, like the Vipec plugin ecu.  ;)

After a year, I am still waiting to come across any issue on my ME7.5 running MAFLESS on a +500whp BT 830cc setup.
Still have great mpg, smooth throttle response (idle, part, and WOT)...Have LC and NLS coded...will be swapping to 80mm TB shortly for further optimization...Have no ABS/ESP/ASR issues and have full cruise control functionality...
Have actually not noticed any difference in how the car feels by running alpha-n...

I still don't understand the point to it, unless you are running standalone or a motorsport ecu which is designed for it.

BOV's and a screen over your top mounted turbo ::)

from reading this, it went to wrong direction...  the question is "can it be done" and not "is it smart or stupid to do it"..

...I do not understand, why so many discussions in different forums make the same mistake  ???

...imagine you go into a pup an order a beer... and you get an education about the harmful effects of alcohol consumption from the tender  :D

...so I will bump up the question again...  can it be done and what to do in Me7 to make it ...  (without judging about it)  ;D

...reason maybe..  you have no space for mounting the MAF...

So put it on pressure side.
It's not that hard to make a small flange before the throttle body and stick it in, is it? Or use the Pro-M pro tube.

But you have to dial in a new MAF curve in ME7...  but no Space on pressure side either :-(

Oh yea, and when running Alpha-N you have to dial in your "VE" map if you can call it that.
Also complaining about dialing in a MAF - are you kidding me?
This I don't believe. On a 2.7TT there is plenty of room pre-turbos and on all the four bangers there is TONS of room everywhere.

The fact that you can't do it right means you are just lazy.

Thats with your own MAFless tune or you buy the tune from somewhere ? And your car is with or without ESP system ?

ESP can work pretty OK even with MAFless.
It will not be as perfect as without the limp mode, because the ECU's torque calculations are not quite on target, but it is possible to make it work and there are a few ways to accomplish this.

Of course if you do nothing, it will not work.

I know its possible, question here is "how"..........

There are a few different ways, but sorry I don't want to share this for free here.
The reason is that I don't like MAFless tunes, I dont think that this is the right way to go and I don't want to share this public to create even more of them.
If someone is willing me to pay for that info, it is a different question, and there are a few cars running successfully with ESP and MAFless with my solution.

Right way or not, strange is that almost all high powered ME7 equiped cars run mafless........
For example here in Bulgaria we have Audi S3 with 2.0l stroker, GTX35 turbo, 1000cc injectors, 4bar MAP and mafless tune, around 700hp on crank, fully street car with 1350kg weight without driver, best time on 1/4mile 10.3sec with 220km/h, engine is still alive and even its for sale because next engine will be 6cyl over 1000hp.......for me nothing wrong with mafless tunes, i like them and will use them even on R32 turbo conversions if thats possible, unfortunately till that moment its not.........

The problem is, you are running Alpha-N.
Basically limp mode on ECU on a tiny map...

You don't have to agree with me, no problem.
It is possible to make it work more or less, but I don't want people who are new to this blowing stuff up, because they are taking away the primary load input in the ECU.

So go ahead and ask those hacks how they do it.

Even better, ask them why they are doing it MAFless.

The reason for mafless tunes is clear, its the only problems what MAFs cause on high powered cars. Anyway to run maf on pressure side is bad idea when in same time you have possibility to run without maf at all, sure both ways are cheating but mafless will cause less problems.

There is plenty of cars in the states making 700+ whp on the Pro-M units without issues as well :)

Plenty of cars run mafless too, but most important is that almost all record holders equiped with motronics run mafless ;)

There are also gold medal winners in the paralympics ;)

This is the dumbest argument i've ever seen.

Correlation != causation

Funny topic here again, why dont delete all mafless related threads in this forum ? Seems mafless tune is big NO NO when we talk about motronics ? Same way we can tell that tuning is big stupidity what anyone can made with his car, because its not the way "they made it in factory".....if you ask my father thats absolutely true, if you ask me.....not so..... :)

Nyet........ i love you too :-*

i think they are simply trying to tell you that crippling a very sophisticated ECM, perhaps the most sophisticated back in ~01, is not a good idea.
the me 7.x was clearly 10years ahead of its time, compared to the ECMs used by other manufacturers, even today most manufacturers ECMs dont even come close to its flexibility and accuracy..

..and by removing its primary input, going into limp-mode, you technology-wise end up back in the late seventies again, similar to an old haltech E6K, now why would you want to do that..?

..when you could use the ECM as intended and have 100 times higher precision in fueling, spark, boost, cam-control etc.. under ALL conditions.

sure, you can run it mafless, theres just nothing to gain from it, compared to learning how to tune it and using it as intended.. just my 2c  ::)

sn00k all what you wrote is true, but in real world you NEED to made a lot of compromises when you try to run same engine with same stock ECU but with 2 or 3 times more power !!!

Like i already wrote to run MAF on pressure side is same "cheating" like to run mafless, or may be someone here already test what is flow difference on different MAFs when elements are on 1000mbar/20 degree and 3500mbar/50degree ? If you cant trust the MAF how you can be sure that you tune corectly ? We can say "try and error" right ?

Or you may say "OK why to put the MAF on pressure side, lets try to run it normal intake side", no problem for that reason you cant use BOSCH HFM5 anymore if you want to go above 600hp(crank). Even on close to that power level you need to have right made intake piping(not close to turbo), because in other way HFM5 will be easy blown. To run  more than 600hp on crank with real meassured airflow you need to use PRO-M, HPX or any other aftermarket MAF, i know several guys here run these MAFs and all they know how MAF values drift on idle, that way you can forget for "like stock" idle, to have almost good idle with aftermarket MAF it need to be inside not more than 3" housing, but to run turbo with 4" intake and tap it to 3" is nothing more than stupid. Dont even want to wrote about funny transfer function "calculators" depend of housing diameter, their values are not even close to real airflow !!! If you dont believe try some test yourself, put RS4 HFM5 on your car, run it on street or on dyno and log the airflow, then change the MAF with HPX or PRO-M with suitable "calculated" transfer function and test again......if you even can drive your car normaly you will see BIG difference on airflow meassured with HFM5 :)

Anyway i will be happy if someone here try to share details about good Motronic equiped street car with 800hp or more on crank what run with factory calibrated MAF on intake side ? Dont give examples with blow thru MAF setups, like i wrote they are same "stupid" cheating like mafless, because airflow is not real meassured anymore.......

And other interesting fact is who from you guys what dont like mafless, have experience with cars driven with mafless setups, how you know about drivability, power delivery, econony, safety and etc ?

ofc you need to make compromises, but the engine can still be tuned using the ECM as intended.

Blow-thru is perhaps not the way to go, since you would need temp & pressure sensors in the MAF to accurately calculate the airflow from the HFM-signal.. im fairly sure that this can be done tho, since there are MAF-sensors available with built in temp-sensor and one could use the map-sensor for pressure reference.. this would also require some creative coding.


wouldnt personally use calculators etc..
as for the pro-M and HPX sensor there are calibration datasheets with MEASURED air-volumes which can be implemented & interpolated with good accuaracy.


its true that a large diameter decreases accuracy at low flowrates, i.e idle, but idle is not too hard to tune anyway.


im not saying i dont LIKE mafless, im saying the increased accuracy of a torque modelling ecu based on MAF is advantageous.. far more advantageous than crippling the system and going 20 years back in development.. but sure, it can be done, no doubt about that :)

i think most of the people reading here have tuned quite alot of other ECUs, mostly without MAFs, fact is the ME7 is the first torque-based platform i myself have worked with.. the rest were map/TPS-based like every other aftermarket ECU available on the market today and 30 years back.. haltech, digifant, autronic, motronic, ms, vems, emerald, nira, vipec etc etc.

Personally I do not see that much how the MAF is affected on the pressure side.
I think the most important thing is the plumbing and having it in a straight piece of pipe.

In the first ECU's using MAF's the calculation for base IPW was just MAF/RPM*constant with no IAT correction and they worked just fine delivering accurate air fuel ratio.
The air is cooling the element, and depending on how much it is cooling it, the airmass is determined.

The reason the MAF needs no IAT correction, is that the IAT is already built in - hotter air is less dense, and also cools less. Same with pressure - denser air cools more.
I know HFM5 type of mass air meters are used on some diesel trucks in the inlet manifold, so it can work just fine there.

If the MAF did not take these things into account, the car would go massively lean on high altitudes and in hot weather conditions.
But this is not so. This would be only the case with an airflow meter (loaded spring/flap based), but we are using an airmass meter.

Any news about Mafless on 1.8T ? Is there a way or a guide here in forum to do it?

(https://i.imgur.com/DmoWXbs.png)

This platform is 20 years old... Enjoy your limp mode without traction control light

Very nice, but which file is this done on?

It doesn't matter

Will work on most if not all VAG ME7 binaries.

Search for TDMLMN location
xx xx 9D 04 09 81

Change 09 81 to CC 00

You can also just change the 9A to 8A instead of CC 00.

If you need more help then you shouldn't be doing this

Hi, I wondered how this particular function look sin IDA, so I will attach a screenshot, if someone else is interested too.