NefMoto

After blowing a K03, I've gone to Frankenturbo FT21s on my 2003 A6 2.7T Tip and am starting to dial them in. Stage 1, 16 psig tapering to 11 psig or so at max revs.  WG cracks at 8 psig.  3rd gear pull:

(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/dakota70440/551R_20121007_140030A.png)

A couple of issues, if anyone has any ideas.

Spool time is ridiculously slow (I'm at 6,200'/1900 m elevation, so undoubtedly that is some or all of it).  The following is from idle:

(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/dakota70440/551R_20121007_153321B.png)

(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/dakota70440/551R_20121007_153321C.png)

Spool was not great with the K03s either (and my daughter's 1.8T Passat 4Motion is downright hideous).  There are no boost leaks and the diverters are fine.  Would ramping the throttle plate more quickly help?  Response in general just seems better when rolling the throttle on.  Any other ways to improve spool given the altitude?  Timing is not being pulled.

I'm also getting a boost spike to 21-22 psig when the throttle plate closes to 36* right before a shift.  Is the N75 system strictly reactionary, or is there a feed-forward, anticipitory function I can tune?

(Once I resolve these, then I'll move on to why corrected specified load is being limited and not following LDRXN abd fine-tune WG.)

Thanks in advance...

Make sure the breather check valve at the back is not leaking, or even better, just plug it shut.

Your spool looks more or less OK for K04's on elevation, perhaps a bit late. Not sure about the F21's as I have no experience with them.
My RS4 has 18 psi at 3500 in 3rd, but you have to remember the RS4 has a shorter 3rd gear.

What supporting mods do you have?
You need exhaust injectors and fuel pump for this most likely. You should also be able to run 18 psi flat to redline. Or maybe even ramp from 17.5 to 19.5 at redline.
Probably not a good idea to run much more in the midrange since your tip might not like it.

You need to linearize your PID. And it would be better for you to use the RS4 PID.
Look at a post by elRey regarding KFLDRL linearization. He outlines pretty well what you have to do, to get your PID to behave.

KFWDKSMX set to 100% from 2000 RPM for sure.
You will be surprised how much difference it will make.

^^^^^  Excellent feedback, thank you.  Definitely wishing I had gone ahead and swapped to 6MT when I did my TC.  New TC is "almost" working but not quite and trips out occasionally.  May end up doing the swap, or may try to figure out how to finagle TC parameters (and/or valve body) to keep it on-line.  I don't think there's anything horribly wrong, it's just not seeing enough actuation pressure, and the TCU isn't "smart" enough to adapt.

WRT the boost spike, I've come to the realization that it's probably not a big deal since the engine isn't seeing it, just the ductwork.  Any other thoughts?

Once you open the throttle more things might look different.
Also, please post actual logs, rather than pictures of graphs, or post both.

It is a lot harder to give feedback when you are unable to massage the data into a format you are used to working with.

Agreed. Post logs too :)

That said i obviously still like the graphs.

prj, how do you process logs? Is there anything I can add to ECUxPlot to make it easier?

You also need to clean up Q2 (D term).. it is pulling wg too soon, AND not enough.

start by copying the RS4 d term.

Add the ability to scroll. Right now the graph is an all-or-nothing affair and navigating it is a PITA.
Also the axis labels could be done slightly differently, and be toggle able.

Take a look at WinLogView http://www.devtechnics.com/winlog.htm (http://www.devtechnics.com/winlog.htm).

This is just my opinion of course - take what you want from it.

It has to be all or nothing for RPM vs anything.

I agree that if the x axis is time (or sample), other viewers are better.

Also, matrix graphs.
Where you can specify certain parameter ranges.
This is invaluable for dialing in timing maps as you can quickly graph how much timing was pulled in each cell.

All I do is do a series of pulls at different loads, that way I get coverage over almost the entire map, and then I just correct the entire map based on the data in each cell.
See here for an example:
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2049.0 (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2049.0)

I mean, I don't really care that much, I have my log converter, so if I need that stuff I just use WinLog.
But you were asking how you can make your plotter better - and I just gave you some input on that. I use both your tool and WinLog.

Elevation will not effect spool.  I consider myself very well versed with tuning from 5000 to 10,000 (shop sits at 6100) and yes it works the turbos harder but you can still achieve the same pressure over ambient at the same rate.  If anything on a big turbo sometimes it will spool faster given the same timing/fuel setup, I attribute this to a compressor wheel getting up to speed easier while chewing through thinner air.  I did find benefits in opening the throttle to 100% at 2500 as opposed to 4000 on anything ko4s or bigger with regards to the 2.7t

Point taken.  It really all goes back to relatively sucky off-the-line acceleration because in effect I have a NA engine that's down 20% on power until spool happens.  Looking forward to tuning KFWDKSMX (and cleaning up everything else as suggested.)
And message received prj on the logs - -will do next time 'round.

Can you outline what the UI for that should look like?

I'm definitely interested.

Play with AFR and timing during spool.  In my experience 13.4 is a good AFR for better spool, actually let me try and expand on this, try and stay with me here as I suck at explaining what's in my head.

Picture a combustion cycle happening under normal conditions, all the fuel is burnt and turns into heat, the heat is being pulled into the engine block and heads as the piston moves down, on the exhaust stroke the left over heat energy is pushed out in the form of a gas and it is no longer producing any new heat.  This then has to drive your turbine.

The extreme opposite would be our anti lag systems, having the fuel burn on the exhaust stroke and all the new heat/energy available is going to drive the turbine while basically non is being used in the engine or being absorbed into the engine.

Optimal spool is found somewhere in the middle of this and will only ever be found on a case by case basis for a given system.  Adding more fuel like my aforementioned 13.4 AFR vs the normal motronic 14.7 during spool is simply to give more possible heat/energy.  Retarding the timing just enough to where you do not effect the forces put on the piston and kill engine speed up but also allow some fuel to still be burning on the exhaust stroke is where the magic happens.  Adding fuel by itself does nothing other than waste it though, you must retard timing in that specific range to have the burn start later.  Less of the heat/energy will be absorbed by the engine and more will flow towards the turbine.  The more fuel the slower the burn and so there is a fine line where you are over doing it as you still want a complete burn.

You can get a partial benefit by just retarding timing a bit at normal spool up AFRs of 14.7 too.  People commonly mistake a leaner mixture as hotter and therefore heat must mean spool, dont get so caught up on heat, focus on the energy which just happens to be hot.  Hope that makes sense and I can try to.expand on it more.  Speaking of expansion, that's the best way to visualize fuel and air combustion, we all get that this expansion pushes the piston down, now also view it as a force that you control, how it expands, where it is expanding and what that expansion is doing for you at different parts of the power band.

Actually makes good sense; on my list of things to experiment with once I get the basic tune right.
Do you have a recommendation for timing, and when (rpm) to transisition back to a standard curve (I imagine once boost starts to build)? 

With regards to timing, look at the link I gave nyet.
Probably easiest way to tune timing that way. Just set timing as close to MBT as possible.


Look at the link I posted, it contains a screenshot of the matrix graph functionality in WinLog.

Progress report, ramping throttle all-in by 3,000 rpms dropped spool by 250 RPMS (using a definition of "spool" of 2 psig boost) from 2,750 rpms to 2,500.  Huge improvement in feel.

Still working with WG linearization and PID, better using a combo starting with RS4 and modified with some of the philosophy used here http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1479.0 but more work to do.

Experimented with dropping timing by about 15 degrees from 1,000 rpms to 3,000 rpms and load 30% -- 70%, and indeed 2 psi boost came in at 2,300 rpms vs. 2,750 rpms.  So (and not that I doubted it) there's something to this.  MAF readings for each RPM point as compared to previous runs showed a slight but definite bump in HP, so it seems to be a real improvement that can only get better with more fuel (which I haven't done yet).  Probably do this after I switch to EV14s; I'm out of fuel up high as predicted.

Next step is to do this the right way and adapt the anti-lag code to switch to a new timing map if accelerator pedal is over "X" demand, otherwise use the original timing.