NefMoto

Hi,

I've got this project i'm working on:
(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0066.JPG)

It's a 4.2L V8 in a porsche 944 that will get beat up on the track.

I'm looking for guidance on which ECU i should get and which tune to put in. i just want a stock like level of power without the immobilizer stuff

Thanks in advance,
  Marc

What engine code is it ?

assuming it's the first three letters on this sticker: http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0068.JPG it reads "ABZ"

from what i understand it's a 300HP motor.

i will be putting this through the stock 944 transmission (which is an Audi 016). my goal isn't maximum power, my goal is good power and maximum reliability. it will be raced in 24hours of Lemons which pretty much means non stop thrashing for two days at a time.

Motor swaps and fuel injection aren't new to me, but it's my first time working with Audi motors. here's a previous swap i've done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdbt8nCkItI (WWII radial airplane engine in an MR2 that i fuel injected with megasquirt)

I was just reading about the airplane engine-something about a 500 dollar budget for the car that didn't apply to radial aircraft engines, so you shoehorned a 5cyl in there?

You could use the stock ECU as well.
The immo will need to be deleted, or you can simply use a small emulator box to fool the ECU. They can be had on e-bay for very cheap.
The stock ECU is quite easy to remap as well, but some creative cabling is required to do this in real time on a dyno.

The stock ECU also has knock control, which is a lot of effort to get working on an aftermarket ECU.

The important question is - why do you think you need an aftermarket ECU?
If the problem is only the immobilizer, then that is easily solved.

I thought it was an ABZ.

It's from a pre facelift Audi A8, 32v and 300 bhp.

You could use the original ECU and use the 034 motorsport chip http://www.034motorsport.com/034efi-engine-management-034efi-chip-tuning-abz-v8-manual-conversion-performance-chip-p-21340.html

yeah, it started from an "I bet you can't" moment and evolved into that car in about 4 months. there's a HUGE build thread here: http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=4861 (warning, there are over 1400posts in that thread)


actually, i specifically do not want an aftermarket ECU. i want a reliable engine with good knock control and reliability.

the power to weight ratio of a fast lemons car is about 9lb(as raced)/hp at the crank. so the stock 300HP gives me 2700lbs as a weight target. they weigh about 2800lbs stock so i should be able to get it down to about 2600lbs even after i put a rally style cage in it while still keeping full stock body structural integrity.


that chip looks like everything i'm looking for. I'd prefer it without the stage 1 tune. I'll e-mail them and ask if it is possible.

i did not get an ECU with the engine, what should i shop for to get a stock one?

I think that "chip" could be just the software from euro S6.
In that case paying 550$ would be a bit odd.

they mention soldering which seems odd to me. i absolutely do not have an issue with surface mount soldering but i also expected this ECU to be reflashable.

The ECU is not flashable, the chip is OTP.
It was a 27C1024 IIRC.
You can get a flash replacement, and you can socket the ECU, then you can write it multiple times.

For serious tuning a 16 bit emulator will need to be hooked up to the ECU.
This will take some spaghetti. Unless you have the correct adapter.

ahh, i see.

changing the eeprom in a CPU isn't a problem for me. I've done plenty of surface mount component work.

I'm not looking to tune it. i want a stock tune in a stock ECU with stock reliability. problem is, it seems that the "stock" tune i want does not quite exist. i need the immobilizer and the automatic trans control stuff removed.

Immobilizer is not done in the chip, it's done in the EEPROM.
Or you can use an emulator.

In fact I'd say - you can use an emulator, buy a 27C1024, find some S6 250kw stock euro software with manual box and then write that into the chip.
Then see if it starts up.

The chip is going to be a couple bucks, and since you can solder yourself, I guess it's worth trying, before shelling out half a grand.

what about the automatic transmission stuff? if i just use an A8 computer with the $150 immobilizer bypass. what will the automatic transmission stuff cause? just a check engine light or will there be drivability issues?

Given your budget, I'd say just run it with the oem management and the immobilizer bypass. I don't know how much the lack of a tcu will effect it, but PRJ should.

I read the thread. I feel terrible. Good luck this time around.

i'm not sure why you say you feel terrible.

sure, it was "only" 20 laps, but how many people put a WWII engine in a car and took it around a race track? it was downright awesome!

there were lots of lessons learned and the next iteration of that car will be much more reliable.

sorry, not to thread jack but this is quite on topic.
could an immo-defeat chip be soldered to the b5 s4's ecu to fake-out a rs4-based tune written to the ECU?

this would seem like a better solution than having to go into boot mode everytime to write the EEPROM.
am i correct here?  i think i may be.

Once you flash an immo-defeated bin to the 95040, you never have to touch it again. There is no need to solder an immo-defeated chip, the chip is already present, but just contains adaptations and softcoding as opposed to immobilizer data. Just flash an immo-off bin one time, and you never have to enter boot mode again (unless you want to reactivate the immo).

Once the immo is off, you can read and write without bootmode ever after. Did I get the question right?

can you help me with the terminology? what's the 95040? is that a 2nd controller in the ECU?

the 95040 is the EEPROM, which contains adaptions and immobilizer data. (atleast on me7, i dunno what typ of ECM this 4.2 engine uses).

i think the best way for you to go is to source an ECU from the europeean market, as these engines came with manual transmission over here.. then just hook it up to the engine along with one of those immo-defeaters Prj mentioned.. = everything stock and 100% working.

them are available over here for ~150-200$..

sais this on the cover.. "4d0907559D 0261206373 0003"
i was under the impression that these engines were 5-valvers tho.. 40 valves in total.. or perhaps im looking at the wrong engine here..  ::)
(was looking at euro A6/S6 4.2)



hmm.. im going to correct myself here.. there were apparently an "ABZ" 300hp 32-valver in the audi A8.. on which the ecu-cover states: "4D0907557J 0261204146/147" i dont know it this is manual or automatic tho.. on the ones i KNOW is automatic, the last letter is B,E,K,P.. this J is the only one that doesnt state if it is manual or automatic.

are you saying that you have the ABZ ECU available for sale?

in the USA they were only with automatics, but in the past i've never had an issue running an automatic ECU on a manual setup as long as you don't give it a VSS. but i've never messed with audi before so i may be wrong.

I could definitely post a euro bin from an s8 if you wanted to switch out the OTP chip for something programmable. You would still be left buying an immo-emulator, but it would be cheaper than buying an ecu.

I was on the page where you made 1 lap before the driveline blew up when I posted I felt bad for you.

oh yeah. the first time at the track was rather disappointing. more so because one of the other drivers hamfisted the shifter on the backup car and broke the 3-4 shift gate. so that was the only lap i turned that weekend.

do we know if the S8 motor internals are the same? my only concern there is things like knock response and whatnot. i still want it to be correct.

Yes I believe so.  So how do I kill the actual IMMO-code on a sample bin?  Seriously, I fn hate this IMMO-nonsense.
Half of the board is waiting for somebody to repair the B5 S4 / RS4 K-box & Q-box, so that we can move as a community off the M-box.

Can I send you the two bin's, have you "defeat them", and then I'll try to see if I can get my car running on them?  Remember, I have no-immo garbage on my car, 2000 b5 s4.

Basically, there are 5v and 4v motors.

The 5v motors came together with ME7.
The 4v motors had M5.9.x.

The latter is what the OP has. And what he needs is 250kw S6 manual ECU with the immo defeated.
The S8 250kw manual would do too, exactly the same engine.

But it must be from a cable-throttle car.

nehalem:

Take a peak at the thread I started (understanding/retrofitting immobilizer) that's been stickied in the flashing and chipping section. There is an immo-off bin posted there already for you, but If you want me to do yours, just post it. I'll do it and post a few screenshots so you can understand the process and do it yourself next time!

prj:

Any bins that are better suited than the rest?

0261204563 4D0907557 M5.4.1 is attached below (AFAIK 96-98 from an s8).

Well S6, it's gotta be the AQJ engine.
IIRC that is a 4V engine.
The ANK is a 5V engine.
I don't know if the ECU's are directly compatible.

Failing that, there is the AKH on the S8 and the AHK on the S6 Plus.
The latter's ECU also had some sort of PLCC chip in it...

I got a price quote to get this working on a car locally as well. Will see if it leads anywhere.
ABZ swap into B3 chassis.

does anyone know the year and model range for the stock ECU for the ABZ?

Audi A8 years 94-98.. perhaps it was found in some other model aswell.


seems i cannot find any ABZ engines with manual transmission over here.. i found this AKH-engine tho which suppsedly is a 4.2l 32-valver fitted to S6+ and s8.. numbers on this box with manual tranny is: 0261204760 4D0907558E

not saying i have one in my hand, but quite a few of them are available over here in the 150-400$ pricerange, from breakers.

Did not exist.
There are AKH and AHK. AKH is S8, AHK is S6+.

It's not really the ECU that is needed, what is needed is the software off it I think.

ah, thanks for clarifying =)


think he is looking for a completely stock ecu, which is why i listed the numbers  :)

i wonder if the AKH ecu is compatible with the ABZ.. wiring harness, sensors etc etc.. if so, then that would be the ecu to fetch for his build.

Oh, you are right then, probably easiest to just verify the pinouts between AKH, AHK and ABZ and get a AKH or AHK ECU and an immo emulator off of eBay.

i think i found a 1998 A8 ECU with all the immobilizer stuff. it says it has a 300HP 4.2L V8 so it's probably the right code. I'll go check it and pull it.

can someone confirm that the immobilizer ecu is in the cluster? there's probably an antenna on the ignition key surround. does anyone have a wiring diagram so i can confirm what i need?

I'll go ahead and try it without any fix for the auto transmission and see what codes it throws.

Thanks!

What is the ECU code?
There are different ECU's for different engines, different injectors, different MAF's.
I looked into this a bit more...

I posted a euro bin a page back, maybe prj can tell you if it'll work.

The AHC, AHK and AKH all have different MAF and different injectors.
So my idea goes out the window.
Comparing AKH manual files between each other could yield a solution as to what to modify in the ABZ.

I have a car or ECU coming to me soon, so I will have to do to this myself...

prj,

can i ask what your reason for this engine is? are you swapping this into something else with a manual transmission like i'm doing?

i just got my bellhousing adapter finished yesterday. it uses a volvo M46 bellhousing to adapt the Audi V8 to the porsche 944 bellhousing.

(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0105.JPG)
(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0108.JPG)
(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0108.JPG)

the extra material is where i'll be mounting a hydraulic external slave. i just left the extra material for now.

the bores are also still undersized because i haven't figured out what i want to do. i may add an extra support bearing for the extra driveshaft length. but either way it is now good enough to allow me to make engine mounts then make an oil pan.

I am not swapping anything.
The client has put this engine into a B3 shell.
But he says the engine dynamics are way off, feels like a limp mode to him down low, plus the obvious faults.

ahh, and the thought is that the automatic transmission codes are causing the limp?

Well, it certainly is throwing something off, and the calibration is all wrong anyway for an auto...

that's really good info to know. is there a thread where you're documenting this that i can follow in your footsteps?

No... but I will help you solve this if you are not done first ;)
I don't have the car/ecu here yet.

Sounds good. i'd like to be able to help resolve this problem for future 4.2L users.

I'll continue down my path of installing the engine in for now, i have to make some oil pan modifications before i can fire it up, but i should be able to get first fire in 4-6 weeks or so. and we can dig in further from there.

meanwhile, if there is anything i can do before i have the engine in and stock electronics wired up, i'm all ears.

just a quick update. the work isn't stopped, i'm working on the rear sump oil pan for this application:

(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/oil%20pan3.JPG)

i will need a modified oil pump also:
(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0126.JPG)

here you can see how much i had to take off:
(http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/944/IMG_0127.JPG)

Any updates on this?

i finally sent the pan out to be CNC'd so nothing significant really.

but it's still moving forward

ddillenger the file you posted I take it that is all i need to go with the standard trans is the immobilizer been put in this file also or is this just a totally stock file for a 32V  thanks

It's a stock file.

 can this be put on a newer ECU like the me7.1 ? thanks

No, but I have files specifically FOR me7.1, and disabling the immobilizer can be done in the software-no external boxes or emulators required. PM me with your goals, I can help out when I have the time.

I found this site for what Bosch Motronic with what car and engine
http://www.vaglinks.com/Docs/Catalogues/Bosch.com_Vehicle_Component_Applications.pdf

Interesting project. Any updates?

@prj and other colleagues
Do you have any solutions for ABZ software to work with manual gearbox? I have a friend with A8 '98 and he changed to a diesel gearbox. The engine rpm is acting wrong in neutral, between gear change. Is decreasing too slow . With an S8 file it work better from this point of view, but the engine is different.
I don't have any mappacks or damos for this M5.41 to check or experience with petrol, only diesel ecus.
He want's to use abs software because it has ESP, the manual ones don't.

S8 has different amount of flaps in the manifold. 2 vs 3 on the ABZ.
So that won't ever work right.

Good luck is all I can say, won't be fun.

Not to beat a dead horse, but also for ridiculously marginal gains.

I'm still looking for a S8 file 4D0907558E. My friend bought also built an S8 engine for his A8 manual swapped.
I can pay if someone has the file.
Now is using the 4D0907557G file which others are using, but his ESP is not working and the brakes are weak.