NefMoto

Continuing from the Tip thread in Original ECU Files, as that wasn't the right place for this.

Progress on reverse-engineering the Audi TCU operating code has been slow, so in the meantime I've taken to hacking the EDS valves' operating current.  This can be done by modifying the shunt voltage measurement used by the controller as proxy for current. At 1 ohm, amperage value is the same as the voltage value. By modifying the resistance, for a given measured voltage, the current will be different than what the controller thinks it is.

EDS 1, 2 and 3 are reverse-acting; lower current = increased operating pressure.  EDS 1 is overall line pressure, and 2 and 3 control shift sequence timing and firmness.  EDS 4 is direct acting and controls torque converter regulate and lock-up.

After some experimentation, I took line pressure measured voltage up by 10% by replacing the original 1 ohm EDS 1 resistor with a combination totaling 1.1 ohm, which again makes the controller operate at a lower current than it thinks.  I eventually also did the same for EDS 2 and 3.

This has totally transformed shift behavior, more firm but not jarring by any means.  If you can solder even somewhat, this is any easy and quick project.  Of course, your mileage may vary and don't blame me if you blow something up. blah blah blah.

To solve a problem with my TC occasionally going P0741, I also decreased EDS 4 resistor value to 0.8 ohms.  This also worked in my case (but probably will not if you have a torn seal.)

(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/dakota70440/11ed69bc-19a3-428e-b4a7-f250489553dc_zps692471c0.jpg)

nice!

Why, thanks.

I can also add that a fairly cheap and plentiful 4BO927156DJ (from an '01 I believe) will stand in for a considerably more expensive and rare 4B0927156FE ('03) for experimentation purposes.  The shift lever has to be in S; the DJ is not configured for Sport mode, and D position has it shifting back and forth between D and 1 once a second or so.  Other than the loss of manual control it operates perfectly normally otherwise.

At some point I want to see if it will take the FE bin and function properly.  It looks otherwise identical.

I am also curious about TCU behavior and modification.  How close do you think we are to start doing hacks via software, rather than hardware?

Does anyone have any Funktionsrahmen or info/documentation for any of the Bosch TCU's?

Hopefully we're not too far off.  There are some clues from this thread http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=453.msg3346#msg3346 that I just remembered that I plan to look at.

I wasted waaaay too much time at work today looking for a copy of the book referenced above  (the gent who responded earlier offering an address to ship never responded).  I finally found a(n overpriced) copy; should be here in a week or two.  Hopefully there will be some specific info of use.

I also spent a lot of time trying to figure out a BDM set-up.  The hardware seems simple enough, but I have no clue on the software.  Would love to hear anybody's views.

I wish Tony would pop up and release the Nefmoto version he spoke some time ago of that allows reading and writing to different controllers.

I don't think BDM would be required-the dealerships can flash them via the k-line, I'd think it would just be a matter of connecting to the module and entering specific addresses for flashing. Either that, or pull eprom and write it that way. I'll be happy to do it for the cause, I just don't have a tip.

I was thinking BDM for purposes of reverse engineering.  Ultimately it may not be necessary... The off-the-shelf flashing options I've seen so far are relatively expensive for a hobbyist -- if they even have the capability to write to a specific address.  All of the ones I've seen so far are capable of writing to an ECU but not TCU.  If anybody can add any info as to a product that can do it, I think there are a few of us who would be grateful.

But yeah, writing directly is always an option.  I'm set up to do it; it's a bit of a pain but oh well.

Separately, the security seed table listed in the other thread I linked to shows up where it is supposed to in the .bin posted by K0mpresd, so that's encouraging.  Segmenting as described doesn't seem to buy anything; disassembly turns out vastly better without it.  My ignorance probably showing...  One thing I finally recognized is that Ida Pro 5.2 (don't know about later versions) isn't going to find instructions related to the CAN module, since this is a relatively custom part. 

Another point-does anyone have OLS816.dll in their winols? All the reading I've done leads me to believe this is the necessary checksum module...

Don't quote me on this but Nefmoto does let you change the address you connect to....
Unless maybe only my version let me do that.

It does indeed.  You can connect just fine with Nefmoto, as it turns out.  Just can't get it to meet prerequisites to read.

I screwed up my experimentation TCU so haven't played with this for a while.

I'm kind of updating similar posts, but AARDQ did you get the bosch book?

I'm willing to chip in a few $$ to help cover the costs of this.

I'd love to help any way that I can.

Yes, I have it.  Unfortunately it is more of an overview than anything in-depth.

I've been diverted a dozen different ways so haven't spent much time on anything Audi recently.

I can understand that, life gets in the way sometimes.  ;)

I've been re-reading your first post and trying to apply it to the 5hp24fla which is similar but yet different at the same time.

It has 5 EDS relays. EDS 1 is also for line pressure, EDS2,3, and 5 are for shifting, and EDS4 is for tcc.

What caught my attention was the fact that the atsg 5hp24 manual states that EDS2,3,4, and 5 are all reverse acting of EDS1.

So I was browsing the good old interwebs tonight for an atsg 5hp19 manual, and oddly enough it also states that EDS2,3, and 4 are reverse acting of EDS1 which seems to contradict what you had in the first post if my thinking is correct.
Or maybe the manual I have is incorrect as it does say preliminary info and seems pretty old.

Both manuals basically say that when EDS1 is off pressure is high, and that for the rest of them when the solenoid is on pressure is high, the exact opposite of EDS1.

But if it is in fact correct would that mean that you are applying less pressure to EDS2, and 3 by increasing the current?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this seeing that they are also pwm controlled by the TCU.

I'm probably missing something very obvious LOL

Do you happen to have a higher resolution image by chance?

I'm sorry, I don't.

Do we have a possibility to get the datasheet of the processor or even know what to choose in IDA?

It's a motorola freescale 683xx

So i´ll choose Motorola CPU32 (68330) ?

Is this whats used in the Audi/VW TCU´s?

(http://abload.de/img/dsc03079kopieq0u01.jpg)

Looks like it yes.

Do you know how to disassemble it? It looks so much different to Siemens ecu

Where do you solder the resistors to/from?

Under the tape marked P1 etc.  Measure across those and you'll see that they are 1.0 ohms.

Do you happen to have the part numbers for the resistors that your used in your case?

No part numbers, just picked from a stash of 1/2-W resistors I had on hand.

Used to be no trouble just to pop over to Radio Shack for that type of thing, but those days are over sadly.

Yes, exactly.  I will check out Digikey.

Hi gang,

Finally got registered and am able to participate in this discussion.

So I have a 2000 B5 S4, with the slip-tronic trans, and want to try this mod as well, and also work on perhaps modifying the TCU software. I have nefmoto up and running and have read the ECU but haven't tried reading the TCU yet. I will have to reread all posts on the tranny and TCU reading.

But back to this resistor mod...  AARDQ, are you shunting the original R's? I imagine the original R's are in series with the coils, and to raise line pressure, we would want to reduce the current going thru EDS1, thus either increasing the series resistance or shunting the coil with suitable R to fool the TCU to make it think it is supplying the correct current. Has it been determined that we need to fool the TCU so it stays happy?

I had an idea to have a rotary switch probably stacked 2 wafers, on the console, to say have 3 or 4 positions for various "tunings", one wafer would reduce the current going thru EDS1 in various stages, and the other would increase the current going thru EDS4, TC lockup, although we can't go higher than the .75A max, but could perhaps get it to lockup sooner with applying .75A sooner. (I think you did this by changing the 1R to .8R?) Would be nice to get into the TCU to stop the "regulating" mode and just have the damn thing engage the TC or not engage the TC.

Anyway, looking forward to helping get the slip-tronic blues fixed. Mine shifts perfectly other than the P0741 your crappy TC clutch is slipping error. Have changed the fluid/filter and it works 100% when cold, when the fluid warms up, it begins to act up, so I believe that I don't have a torn seal, just perhaps a bit hard.

Cheers

Yes, reverse acting, so reduced current = higher pressure (except for EDS4).  Shunting the Rs reduces resistance, not what we want (except for EDS4).  So, as you say, increase resistance by adding in series or replacing outright, or shunt the coil (can't add any guidance since that's not what I did).    No other tcu fooling required.

Cool okay thanks for the reply. Blasted cold here right now so when it warms up I will dig up the carpet, dig out the TCU and have a go at it. As electronics has been my life for most of it, I have all the R's needed to play with. I will post my results and hopefully will resolve the P0741 ( my crappy TC clutch has slipped again) error. Do you have VAG-COM? Did you log failure mode? I see the failure occur when at highway speed, slight throttle pressure with no increase in road speed, causes the TC clutch to slip, about 64 to 128 RPM slip speed, then the TCU gives up and craps out and opens the TC clutch. Seems solid when cold, hot, not.

Cheers

Forgot to mention...due to email and nefmoto screwups, I now have 2 ID's, so the previous post is still me.  ::) ::) ::)

Also, any further progress on read/write to the TCU via OBD?

thx

Yes, I monitored with VCDS just as you are, and same symptoms. 

Daz was doing most of the work on DIY TCU tuning, at least on this site.  After he passed away I know Vag Autowerks became the point of contact for ECU tuning, but don't know if that extended to TCU work (they list DSG tuning on their site, but that's all).  No idea if they came up with an OBD solution.

Hi, Is Daz  DDillenger?  Sorry to hear of his passing. I had no idea. I have only been reading these boards for a few weeks but have come to realize he was one of the brightest stars on this site. I have been sending him some emails until my registration came thru but no reply. Now I know.

Wow! Okay so guys like us can take up the challenge to continue his work. I know he was well on the way to getting it working. I have been working in the electronics industry my whole life but don't have the in depth knowledge of software that he had.

Let's keep at it. It's surely worth the effort. I love my S4 otherwise.

Cheers

Yep.  Crazy thing.  Dream3R as well, another talented person.

Swap your S4 to manual and you might love it that much more - - I was truly surprised by how much the Tip saps the life out of the car.

Well, adding on to our house this year. Hardware hacking the TCU is about all the time I will have to spend on the car.

I made up a rudimentary drawing of my understanding of the TCU circuits we are working on. I am going to modify it to show a way to make it variable, if need be.

(http://www3.telus.net/radioboy/Audi%20TCU.jpg)

I get that other priority thing.  Not enough hours in the day.

Nice drawing; that'll certainly help others.

I have a fair understanding of the TIP xmission but need to know how the line pressure affects the TC lockup pressure being applied. Does the EDS1 line pressure constantly keep a charge on the TC clutch circuit, ie, always applying X amount of PSI depending on the EDS1 condition, and EDS4 uses that pressure to control lockup, and when the TC seal goes bad it leaks past? If so, we should be able to help the marginal TC trannies' seals, hard, but not torn or otherwise buggared, by forcing EDS1 to make a bit more pressure. As long as having more line pressure doesn't negatively affect any other functions in the transmission. That combined with an earlier application of EDS4's regulating function, by lowering the resistance in series with it, or shunting a parallel  R on the TCU side of the coil, hopefully would allow us to get more miles out of our TIPs before total rebuild is required. Is there any way to measure line pressure on these babies?

I would rather work on the electronics side of it, rather than modifying spool valves and such. All this hacking can be done under the carpet, without even getting dirty.  ;)

Lots to think about.

More coming.

Cheers

Tried zipping and attaching a doc that has port locations, but still too large.  It can be found here: http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Trouble/Data/ZF%20Tech%20Guide.pdf  Some ports need to be drilled and tapped  :-\

AARDQ, do you know for sure that the TCU is regulating the coils by watching voltage on them, or could it be monitoring current thru them? It's PWM I think, correct, just pulsing on/off to control average coil current? The reason I ask is that even if we eliminate the 1R in series with EDS4, max current will only be .65-.8A, depending on actual R of the coil, which I have discovered changes with temp. When cold and TCC is locked, I see .744A, and after it's up to temp, VAG reports .728A.  While it is regulating I can see it vary from .35 - .7A, then finally holds at .74 or so at TCC lock. If it is controlling by monitoring voltage, I wonder if the TCU is using the 1R as a sense R and measuring the voltage across that? Thinking about it, that makes more sense than measuring the voltage to ground on the coil. If this is the case, it will change how I was thinking of modding this.

I'll think some more while waiting for your reply.

Cheers

YOU ROCK DUDE! That is an amazing document. Thanks!

As Number 5 says...  "need input...more input."

Starting to study it now.

Cheers

BTW, have you changed the soft coding in your TCU via VAG-COM? My original code was 00002 and I changed it to 00032, which is "sport" tuning, 00002 is "old man with a hat on the package tray" mode. Made a decent improvement, as did re calibrating the ECU with the "gas pedal kick down switch" operation.

It's up to 0C here today so I may go out and pull up the carpet and find the TCU and start modding.

more later.

TCU monitors current via monitoring voltage across the resistor.  Yes, PWM.  If you eliminate the R, there will be no current monitoring and I imagine TCU limp mode will ensue, or at least a TC DTC.

The carpet is STIFF.  A length of 2 x 4 or something to hold it up out of the way is helpful.  Otherwise, a walk in the park.

Okay good, glad you confirmed that. After I thought about it for a while, it made more sense to use it as a measuring shunt. Cool. Now I can continue to figure out a "variable" hardware tune scheme for it.  ;D

Long ago, when I had an E4OD in a big Ford truck, I completely rebuilt it, trans spring kit etc. I also figured out how the solenoids were switching and modified the coils and diode switching used in the valve body, to allow the TCC to lock in 2, 3, and OD, not just OD. Made a HUGE difference when pulling a 5th wheel. Also put a switch on the dash so I could lock the TCC whenever I wanted. That was a cool tranny after it was done.

Now I may wait until it warms up a bit. I don't want to trash my carpet, interior is pretty mint.

Thanks for the help. I see an old post now, you have put in a 6 spd manual. Appreciate the help.

Cheers

Any time, glad to help.

I know it was 4 years ago, but do you remember what values of R you played with for EDS1 and EDS4? Did you find it to be a linear function? I know you ended up at 1.1 and .8, but how high/low did you go and do you recall the results?  As mentioned, I may put a rotary switch in, or even just a DPDT switch so that I could have 2 or 3 different firmness settings, put it somewhere on the console.  I'm assuming these are SMT Rs, but looks like there may be room for thru hole types. Probably 2W should be fine.

Thanks again!!

I think I was happiest at 10% (1.1 ohms) for the base line pressure and shift solenoids, but I ended up at 20% for the TC function.  20% (1.2 ohms) on line pressure was really harsh.

Thank you again. Okay perfect. I will round up the parts and get ready for a little warmer weather.

I am going to do some research on the internals of the 5HP19. I would like to know if line pressure affects the TCC lockup, and if so, does increasing the line pressure increase the holding power on the TCC. I'm suspecting it will and hoping it will fix the slip when warm problems.

Cheers

I intend on doing this mod as well on the 1.8t.  I'll keep everyone updated.

Just tried this and the TCU went P1748 real quick

I've soldered in 0.8ohm for EDS4, everything else 1.1ohms

Did I miss something?

RS6 C5 / 4B0 927 156 FB

You used 3w resistors, you have to use .5w

How can a resistor's power rating possibly affect it's job as a RESISTOR? :)

EDS5 needs to be 1ohm, otherwise P1748
at least in my case

It's been a few years since there was much input here regarding potential modification of the TCU via software, rather than hardware. Anyone by chance have some progress towards that end that they care to share?

Yes.
Stock trans, no slip.
It can actually hold in excess of 900nm with the correct software modifications.

A lot of stuff needs to be recalibrated due to MDNORM issues.

nice job

Would these modifications work on a 2004 2.7t Allroad with the 5hp19 or is the tcu layout/requirements different from the one shown in that last photo?

Probably.
The main problem on the 5hp gearboxes is that the shift maps, the solenoid linearisation maps and the holding pressure maps all abruptly end at a certain torque.
Anything past that torque causes the box to slip, because it can not make any more pressure.
Fixing the linearisation for the solenoids and the holding pressures, as well as extending the shift pressure maps fixes this issue.

6HP and 8HP do not have this issue, their linearisation even stock is way past what the engine could ever make in stock form. Hence why usually there are no slipping issues.

In 2023, is there still anyone around that programs the 5hp19 TCU?

The BMW world also desperately needs data for the 5HP19. But since there are like two people who have the A2L, one of them passed away a whole while ago, its down to prj.

There's a hell of a lot more than two people who have the a2l.

So I’m understanding this correctly, you did 1.1 ohm resistors on everything except the TC, which you originally went to a .8 ohm from the 1.0 original but ended up with a 1.2ohm on the TC in the end instead of the .8, correct?

Don't do it, get the torque converter rebuilt. It's retarded to do this.

If the TCC is leaking oil it's just a matter of time until that resistor mod won't be enough.

My TC is working fine. The car is a c5 Allroad with a 5hp19fla that has about 150k and has the occasional slip during shifting.  My interest is to prevent the failure that will occur with wear when the tcu doesn’t know to up the pressure when the clutch material has worn away. I just did the 1,2,and 3 resistors but was going to wait for confirmation on the eds5 value.

You're not fixing anything, if it slips the clutch is completely gone or you've tuned the engine without tuning the sw in the trans.
The trans has something called GLUE adaptation, and it will adapt back down. The effect will be temporary.

Don't do any of these resistor mods, it's a waste of time.

The pressure is not a static value in the trans, it adapts to the clutch wear all the time.

Damn, that’s disappointing. Seemed like the OP and some others had some luck with it. I don’t know of anyone that does tuning for these older TCU modules anymore. If you know of someone that still does it, please let me know.

Thanks

You can try to ask Jason at AMD.

I know the trans quite well, but I don't do tuning anymore at all.

Is that something I could buy from you?

I am working on a filedb/website where I'm going to put all my files that I made over the years, and it will be possible. The RS6 C5 900+nm trans file will be there too.
But don't ask me when, I am working on this in the spare time I have from running the whole VehiCAL operation.

For now no, I do not deal with/sell any calibration related stuff.

I meant the 5HP19 BMW A2L. Or do you know someone where I could get that from.

I don't have a BMW one, I have a VAG one.

No idea where to get it, sorry.

Hi prj,
can you give me a little more information about software modification fot this TCU?
i search and read a lot but in the end, i didnt find anything that actually helps (probably my falult but i really searched a lot). That is why i have hope with the hard mod that is in here.

Thank you very much!
(i was about to send you a PM then i see your signature   ;D )

Nothing that can be summed up in a post, you need to understand the gearbox mechanics, identify the issues and solve it.
Main issue in ZF5HP is the holding pressure maxes out at a certain torque and it won't go any higher.

This causes trans to slip in gear, there's a bunch of other issues too.

I'll try to put all my stuff online Q1 this year, including the trans tunes, after that everyone can have fun copy pasting.

yup in my case i know i have to make a rebuild (something complicated where i live). it was acting funny when warm (i bought the car in that way.. i got scammed) then i make a STG 1 to the car and the gearbox was not happy at all.. (allroad 2.5 TDI) so i make a service (put new filter, fluid and a transgo pressure regulator valve) and everything go worst. start getting the TCC error that i wasnt having before.. i start getting a heavy slip when hot (before the services i have some bangs and harst shifts sometimes but no slip) and thinks like that (the fluid level is correct). So, i need a rebuild but i want to hold more power when the rebuild is done. and were i live there is no easy access to aftermarket parts. and i want to experiment with the TCU before and after that haha.

Thank you ver much!!

If you have 2.5 TDI and it slips then it's damaged mechanically dude. 100%.

You don't need a trans tune, you need a reputable rebuilder to restore it to working condition.

yes, is damaged for sure (and there is no reputable rebuilder here so i will do it mysef). but i want to make more power after the rebuild and i would like to hold and last the power, plus a quicker shift, my grandma shift quicker. (and no 6psd manual like in all the country available).

so thats why i want try a trans tune after the rebuild (and before that, it probably won't do any more harm)

Thanks

You will never have any issues with holding torque with this transmission and this engine.
And "quicker shift" is subjective, it's not only transmission tuning, it's also valve body. There's no maps in the transmission that define the shift time, some targets for GLUE adaptation yes, but in the end that's not what defines how it shifts.

This is not a DSG where you have a target gradient map or millisecond map that you can just change.

Furhtermore, on your transmission and engine combo power delivery is not even interrupted when shifting, so doing it faster or slower has actually very little effect on acceleration if at all. It will just feel like it's slamming gears, but the car won't be any faster.
Long story short, the RS6 V8 really needs trans tuning the S4 2.7 needs it when going beyond stock turbos, but 2.5 tdi never needs it. There is no point.

Also if you don't have a 29F400 emulator then you can forget any tuning, because you need to desolder the chip every time (there's a theoretical way to BDM them, but all I did was fry the MCU when I tried it once).