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Title: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 24, 2010, 05:00:48 PM Has anyone self-installed a set of EV14's and got the car to a decent state of tune?
What hardware and software did you use? Is there a Master List of Table Names in the standard B5 S4 M-box? Happy Holidays! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on December 29, 2010, 12:36:13 PM I plan to use these injectors as well so I'm also curious. Are you using 550s or 750s? Stock 4 bar FPR and 85mm hitachi MAF?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 29, 2010, 08:06:33 PM Hey - Spot on. I want to run Tony's base file m-box with a 85mm MAF. On top of that I want to run the stock FPR, a Bosch 044 pump, and Bosch EV14 550cc injectors. This combination seems like the best overall setup to me, given what I understand about the quality of the parts.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on January 19, 2011, 05:04:42 PM Hey - Spot on. I want to run Tony's base file m-box with a 85mm MAF. On top of that I want to run the stock FPR, a Bosch 044 pump, and Bosch EV14 550cc injectors. This combination seems like the best overall setup to me, given what I understand about the quality of the parts. Does anybody have the Bosch part numbers that people are using for this application? For reference: http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/products/injector/Bosch_Injector_data.xls The closest thing I can find is 0 280 158 117/118 (532cc at 2.7bar, 550cc/52# at 3bar) ETA: The 118 variant has 22deg dual cone and the spray pattern is canted (like stock), but it is only 347cc at 3 bar. There is also the 0 280 158 123 variant (627cc/60# at 3bar) which has a EV1 (Jetronic) connector... and the connector offset by 90% http://nyet.org/cars/info/BoschMotorsportsInjectors.pdf Here is what I have so far http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors Latencies: http://nyet.org/cars/info/ev14-latency/ (http://nyet.org/cars/info/ev14-latency/550cc.png) (http://nyet.org/cars/info/ev14-latency/650cc.png) (http://nyet.org/cars/info/ev14-latency/750cc.png) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: paracaidista2.7T on January 25, 2011, 04:40:30 PM Has anyone self-installed a set of EV14's and got the car to a decent state of tune? What hardware and software did you use? Is there a Master List of Table Names in the standard B5 S4 M-box? Happy Holidays! I got my car (2001 A6 2.7T) running fine with them. I am using a 90mm MAF housing, 52# EV14 injectors (0 280 158 117/118)@4bar, PJK04s, 2.8L heads. It wasn't any harder than 630 Seimens at 3bar. I just had to tweak the file slightly, they ran a bit leaner at WOT than the Seimens did. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on January 31, 2011, 06:19:40 PM What all did you tweak to get them to run well? Just KRKTE or something else?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: paracaidista2.7T on February 02, 2011, 08:13:52 AM I refined my KRKTE so that lambda requested jives with wideband actual (it was slightly lean compared to the Seimens). I also set KFKHFM to 1 across the board, logged about 100 miles of driving under varied conditions, and then used that data to refine KFKHFM (this usually takes a few repetitions). I am not certain that I needed to do the KFKHFM step, but it has become habit when I am experimenting. I like to have LTFTs around -3 or so, since when I am logging the fuel I use is of known quality.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on February 02, 2011, 02:13:17 PM http://www.injectordynamics.com/
Paul from Injector Dynamics has given me the following data. The volumetric flow rate on gasoline at 125F is 628cc/min. The battery comp/dead time/offset/latency/lag is as follows: Units are volts and microseconds. 8 - 2500 9 - 1940 10 - 1520 11 - 1270 12 - 1100 13 - 935 14 - 800 15 - 690 16 - 600 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on February 07, 2011, 11:33:08 PM I tested these values with excellent results thus far.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on February 10, 2011, 08:55:42 PM What KRKTE value is everyone using with the Bosch EV14 550s?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on February 22, 2011, 02:28:59 PM http://www.injectordynamics.com/ Paul from Injector Dynamics has given me the following data. The volumetric flow rate on gasoline at 125F is 628cc/min. The battery comp/dead time/offset/latency/lag is as follows: Units are volts and microseconds. 8 - 2500 9 - 1940 10 - 1520 11 - 1270 12 - 1100 13 - 935 14 - 800 15 - 690 16 - 600 Albeit it looks about right, unfortunately is proper but only for 2.7bar fuel pressure which is what everyone tests injectors at... Check this: http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg What's important on this spreadsheet is FNPW_OFFCOMP table which tells you how much you need to multiply each dead time at its voltage to get real value for the FPR you're running. Vast majority of people need to use 60.03 (for 4bar FPR) value and multiply the original FNPW_OFFSET (pretty close to values you listed) byt the multiplier. Here is a catch. The table has errors, I think, since values for 30.02 and 60.03 since they don't follow data pattern. Check other injector calibration sheets on the site, I am fairly sure this to be true... anyway, 30.02 should have 0.8564 and 60.03 1.2638 I tried tuning with the base values but was getting really strange O2 corrections for idle/part throttle with things getting more in-line as the injector on time was getting longer indicating that the injector lag was smaller and smaller in respect to on-time. I am running 1000cc ev14 injectors so any timing discrepancy like that gets exaggerated on my set up. I plugged modified (for 3bar FPR I have) values and now I am dead on with corrections. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on March 08, 2011, 03:28:51 PM What value would you use for 4 bar FPR or 60.03 multiplier?
1.220-1.250 looks about right. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s4rmm on March 31, 2011, 01:57:29 AM So the EV14 injectors are a lot "slower" than Dekas?
Latency/lag at 14v should be 0.8ms * 1.25 = 1ms for 4bar FPR according to info posted in this thread? Tony's file uses 0.4187ms for Dekas, I've seen others around 0.55-0.6ms @14v Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on March 31, 2011, 02:40:58 PM I'm going to be buying ID 1000cc injectors... I wonder how well ME7 will cope ;D
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on April 01, 2011, 07:38:30 AM So the EV14 injectors are a lot "slower" than Dekas? Latency/lag at 14v should be 0.8ms * 1.25 = 1ms for 4bar FPR according to info posted in this thread? Tony's file uses 0.4187ms for Dekas, I've seen others around 0.55-0.6ms @14v Since you asked: http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114191.jpg http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg This should clarify :). Sounds like 0.5ms @ 14v should do the trick (FNPW_OFFSET 0.409 * FNPW_OFFCOMP 1.23) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jibberjive on April 06, 2011, 05:55:38 AM I'll be running 1000cc'ers as well. Likely eventually at 6bar on E85 ha, after I dial in a 91 oct tune.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: judeisnotobscure on April 11, 2011, 07:14:26 PM I plugged the data from the spec sheet into excel.
here is the formula for voltage vs. correctin factor @ 4bar. below 10 volts it apears to be linear. so this only aplies above 10 volts. 1.2634 is the correction factor from 2.66 bar to 4 bar. Y= voltage X= correction factor (ms) @4bar Y= -6.596* ln(X)+ 14.012 here are the values i got @ 4bar with 0280158117 from the spec sheet http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg (http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/judeisnotobscure/boschev14tvub.jpg) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 13, 2011, 05:58:22 AM I'm gonna install my ID1000's today with my 85mm MAF, thinking about using Tony's base file...
Anyone wanna give me a hand for KRKTE and TVUB? I will be installing with the stock 4 BAR FPR. (http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000SumData.bmp) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Tony@NefMoto on May 16, 2011, 12:06:53 PM I'm gonna install my ID1000's today with my 85mm MAF, thinking about using Tony's base file... Anyone wanna give me a hand for KRKTE and TVUB? I simply changed TVUB based on LTFT for idle, and KRKTE based on on LTFT for partial load. Rinse and repeat. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 12:16:48 PM I simply changed TVUB based on LTFT for idle, and KRKTE based on on LTFT for partial load. Rinse and repeat. So basically, if it was too lean/correction @ idle you adjust the TVUB to give more fuel? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on May 16, 2011, 12:33:18 PM I simply changed TVUB based on LTFT for idle, and KRKTE based on on LTFT for partial load. Rinse and repeat. So basically, if it was too lean/correction @ idle you adjust the TVUB to give more fuel? Yes, TVUB has large influence in short duration injector pulse while the longer the injector stays open the less influence it has % wise. Say 0.8ms TVUB at idle is probably about 50% (assuming 1.6ms per pulse at idle) while 0.8ms at WOT with 15ms pulse is only about 5%. Adjusting TVUB has 10 fold higher influence at idle than at WOT in such situation. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Matt Danger on May 16, 2011, 05:10:28 PM I'm gonna install my ID1000's today with my 85mm MAF, thinking about using Tony's base file... Anyone wanna give me a hand for KRKTE and TVUB? I simply changed TVUB based on LTFT for idle, and KRKTE based on on LTFT for partial load. Rinse and repeat. What did you configure for WOT fueling? KRKTE? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 07:00:37 PM What did you configure for WOT fueling? KRKTE? Correct.... BTW, I did what you suggested nyet and played with TVUB and the idle and cruise is considerably better now. Thanks again! Need to get my wideband in. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on June 07, 2011, 04:15:59 PM After more research on this, I believe TVUB could be kept stock with the Bosch EV14 series of injectors. Can anyone confirm this?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 07, 2011, 05:49:47 PM After more research on this, I believe TVUB could be kept stock with the Bosch EV14 series of injectors. Can anyone confirm this? That didn't work at all for me Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on June 08, 2011, 08:44:51 AM Hmm. You are using ID1000's, right? I'm using EV14 550cc. So far not having any problems with stock TVUB values, which isn't too shocking because Bosch makes both injectors. I need to figure out how to diagnose whether the injectors need that table changed or not...
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on June 08, 2011, 09:12:20 AM Hmm. You are using ID1000's, right? I'm using EV14 550cc. So far not having any problems with stock TVUB values, which isn't too shocking because Bosch makes both injectors. I need to figure out how to diagnose whether the injectors need that table changed or not... IF the car behaves well, no idle fluctuations/stalling, no strange deviations in block 032 and WOT is right on.... leave it as is. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 08, 2011, 11:15:43 AM Hmm. You are using ID1000's, right? I'm using EV14 550cc. So far not having any problems with stock TVUB values, which isn't too shocking because Bosch makes both injectors. I need to figure out how to diagnose whether the injectors need that table changed or not... Yes I'm running ID1000's, with stock TVUB values the car is so lean it almost doesn't run. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 08, 2011, 05:07:11 PM Hmm. You are using ID1000's, right? I'm using EV14 550cc. So far not having any problems with stock TVUB values, which isn't too shocking because Bosch makes both injectors. I need to figure out how to diagnose whether the injectors need that table changed or not... 85mm MAF? 4.0 Bar FPR? What KRKTE value are you using and what are your current LTFTs? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 08, 2011, 07:41:33 PM Well with a KRKTE of 0.065 and stock TVUB my long term (partial) throttle LTFTs are -21%.
85mm hitachi maf Bosch EV14 550s @ 4.0 Bar FPR Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on June 10, 2011, 09:49:25 AM 550cc ev14's, 85mm maf, 4.0 bar (stock) fpr
stock tvub krkte = .11 ltft reads 0.2% after Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on June 10, 2011, 10:39:41 AM 550cc ev14's, 85mm maf, 4.0 bar (stock) fpr stock tvub krkte = .11 ltft reads 0.2% after That's strange. 530cc @ 4bar flow almost 2x as more as stock injectors yet krkte delta is not 1/2 of original stock value. I guess you have something heavily compensating for this in other maps as well as for wrong TVUB... That's why every car needs to be custom tuned to work right. There are numerous maps you can adjsut things for other places having wrong values :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 13, 2011, 01:27:54 PM Have I been going the wrong way with KRKTE. Should I be increasing KRKTE from the stock value of .0977 ms/% instead of decreasing it?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Tony@NefMoto on June 13, 2011, 04:02:33 PM Have I been going the wrong way with KRKTE. Should I be increasing KRKTE from the stock value of .0977 ms/% instead of decreasing it? When going to larger injectors you need to decrease KRKTE. KRKTE is the conversion from load to injection time, so with larger injectors you need less injection time to meet the lambda requirement at the same load. You should also check the constant for the minimum injection time to make sure you aren't hitting that. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 14, 2011, 04:57:30 PM Do you know the variable name for that constant?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on June 14, 2011, 07:42:58 PM TEMIN
TEMINVA Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 16, 2011, 06:15:19 PM http://www.injectordynamics.com/ Paul from Injector Dynamics has given me the following data. The volumetric flow rate on gasoline at 125F is 628cc/min. The battery comp/dead time/offset/latency/lag is as follows: Units are volts and microseconds. 8 - 2500 9 - 1940 10 - 1520 11 - 1270 12 - 1100 13 - 935 14 - 800 15 - 690 16 - 600 Albeit it looks about right, unfortunately is proper but only for 2.7bar fuel pressure which is what everyone tests injectors at... Check this: http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg What's important on this spreadsheet is FNPW_OFFCOMP table which tells you how much you need to multiply each dead time at its voltage to get real value for the FPR you're running. Vast majority of people need to use 60.03 (for 4bar FPR) value and multiply the original FNPW_OFFSET (pretty close to values you listed) byt the multiplier. Here is a catch. The table has errors, I think, since values for 30.02 and 60.03 since they don't follow data pattern. Check other injector calibration sheets on the site, I am fairly sure this to be true... anyway, 30.02 should have 0.8564 and 60.03 1.2638 I tried tuning with the base values but was getting really strange O2 corrections for idle/part throttle with things getting more in-line as the injector on time was getting longer indicating that the injector lag was smaller and smaller in respect to on-time. I am running 1000cc ev14 injectors so any timing discrepancy like that gets exaggerated on my set up. I plugged modified (for 3bar FPR I have) values and now I am dead on with corrections. I may be calculating this incorrectly for my 550s. My TVUB values look like this after a little number crunching and a quick graph. Volts MS 7.04 4.666 10.06 1.813 12.03 1.314 14.08 0.997 17.88 0.805 I'm going to go try this now, though I'm not expecting good results. Currently running KRKTE of 0.058 with -10% Partial LTFT and a 0% LTFT at idle. I figured now that my KRKTE is close I would input a proper TVUB and then adjust from there again. My TEMIN is 0.501 and my TEMINVA is 0. Minimum injector on time appears to be running 2.38 ms at idle. An online reference says min injector ontime for these injectors is around 0.704 ms. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: wickster on June 16, 2011, 06:16:39 PM Also, the car ran great and started great when warm but it idled very rich it seemed during cold start. Not sure where to start there, have to do some research.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on June 29, 2011, 01:23:12 PM the tabgbts on my tune is set to 375. is it possible that i'm not seeing issues with krkte/tvub because the tune is being forced to operate off the egt maps (kflbts / kffdlbts) due to the lowered tabgbts?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on July 21, 2011, 12:22:41 AM Assume this (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg)) to be accurate and we already know a 4-bar pressure regulator is 58.02 psi. Therefore FNPW_OFFCOMP has a theoretical value of: 1.1852.
Using the same decimal accuracy as the calibration sheet: 1.1852 = 1.2179+(58.02-54.96)*(1.1638-1.2179)/(60.03-54.96) In MATLAB I entered the FNPW_OFFSET values and fit a shape-preserving spline. You can see the attached graph below to view the curve-fit. Interpolated output from the curve below is naturally multiplied by 1.1852. Volts MS 7.04 3.865 10.07 1.678 12.04 1.227 14.08 0.926 17.88 0.779 Now for KRKTE, the theoretical value is pretty simple to calculate. KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant ) KRKTE = 50.2624 * 0.4452 / ( 615 * .684) = .0532 These are the values I'm going to start my K04 tuning with using the rinse/repeat process after I get a wideband installed (based on the stock m-box). Could somebody please verify what I've done above? Thanks guys. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 21, 2011, 01:51:50 PM I have no idea if your math is correct for your TVUB...
but did you use the flowrate of your injectors for n-heptane? if not it won't be right on... either case, I'm sure they're fine as starting values... and you can tweak them from there once you get the car started. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on August 24, 2011, 10:24:14 PM Note that I have the WRONG scaling in my XDF mappacks.
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,935.msg8064.html#msg8064 I will be releasing an update soon to fix this. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 25, 2011, 12:22:07 PM I figure I'd post this here as well (just posted in my thread) since it has to do with Bosch injectors..
Found this very well laid out and detailed .xls that shows pretty much every Bosch injector and n-hep flow rates. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 31, 2011, 12:04:32 AM here's the theoretical way to calculate krkte straight from some bosch manual:
(http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg) all of the q-stat values in the above excel sheet are calculated for 300 kilopascals which is 43.5 psi. to convert the operating pressure to what a standard b5 s4 would use, we need it for 4-bar, which is 58.0 psi. to do the conversion: q-stat * sqrt(58.0/43.5) ==q-stat @ 300kPa * 1.1547 for my application = 532 * 1.1547 = 614 cc/min that's 614 cc/min of n-heptane... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: PovGRide742 on January 28, 2012, 05:27:45 PM nehalem,
Wouldn't it be more accurate to use the equation QSTAT * sqrt(4/3) rather than QSTAT * sqrt(58.00/43.50), being that what the equation is trying to achieve is that the initial psi is 75 percent of the target psi. I know the equation will work out the same, but 58 and 43.5 are rounded off where as 4 and 3 is exact... also making calculations easier? Brett PS... don't take this reply as a smart-ass one, I've been learning a ton off your posts! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on January 28, 2012, 06:27:40 PM nehalem, Wouldn't it be more accurate to use the equation QSTAT * sqrt(4/3) rather than QSTAT * sqrt(58.00/43.50), being that what the equation is trying to achieve is that the initial psi is 75 percent of the target psi. I know the equation will work out the same, but 58 and 43.5 are rounded off where as 4 and 3 is exact... also making calculations easier? Brett PS... don't take this reply as a smart-ass one, I've been learning a ton off your posts! Hi, No worries, this was one of my first attempts at mathematically calculating anything for this car. I was quite nervous tbh. lol Did you mean to suggest sqrt (3 / 4) because you'll find that sqrt(58.00/43.50)=sqrt(4/3) ... I believe sqrt (4/3) is correct though. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: PovGRide742 on January 29, 2012, 02:02:12 PM Hi, No worries, this was one of my first attempts at mathematically calculating anything for this car. I was quite nervous tbh. lol Actually, I meant 4/3 over 58/43.5... and for this reason:Did you mean to suggest sqrt (3 / 4) because you'll find that sqrt(58.00/43.50)=sqrt(4/3) ... I believe sqrt (4/3) is correct though. 4bar = 58.XXXXXXXXpsi, and 3bar = 43.5XXXXXXXpsi, so if you did the math absolutely correct, it would equal exactly that, 4/3. So it's just easier to use the equation of 4/3 instead of the psi/psi. This way, there is no way to be 'mathematically' incorrect. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on January 29, 2012, 10:21:30 PM sqrt(4/3) ~= 1.15470054
sqrt(58/43.5) ~= 1.15470054 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: PovGRide742 on January 30, 2012, 06:08:26 AM sqrt(4/3) ~= 1.15470054 Lol, yes... I know they equal the same number. In the odd event though, that you'd want to go ridiculously exponentially, 4/3 would be more accurate than 58/43.5. Although, to sum this up, I think you've already agreed 4/3 is easier.sqrt(58/43.5) ~= 1.15470054 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Tony@NefMoto on January 30, 2012, 03:04:27 PM Just remember that no matter how perfect your equations are, as soon as you have them running in your car, you end up changing them. ;)
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: PovGRide742 on February 02, 2012, 05:59:27 AM Just remember that no matter how perfect your equations are, as soon as you have them running in your car, you end up changing them. ;) Yeah, I know, I'm slightly OCD, so I like as-accurate-as-possible starting values.Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on May 06, 2012, 11:40:27 PM Just migrated to EV14 750cc (72#) @ 3bar
I tweaked TVUB some starting with Tony's values. Car is running fine.... but i think i need to massage cold start fueling. Anybody else have to do this? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Rick on May 07, 2012, 07:25:05 AM Never had an issue with cold start, but warm (not hot) start usually needs playing with.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on May 07, 2012, 07:51:12 AM Just migrated to EV14 750cc (72#) @ 3bar I tweaked TVUB some starting with Tony's values. Car is running fine.... but i think i need to massage cold start fueling. Anybody else have to do this? Yes. I had to bump up warmup maps for fueling as I was going lean and engine was bogging down when stepped on for normal acceleration. This would only be the case for medium load. Either high load or barely any load requests would not cause that. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on May 08, 2012, 12:55:58 PM Assume this (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg)) to be accurate and we already know a 4-bar pressure regulator is 58.02 psi. Therefore FNPW_OFFCOMP has a theoretical value of: 1.1852. Using the same decimal accuracy as the calibration sheet: 1.1852 = 1.2179+(58.02-54.96)*(1.1638-1.2179)/(60.03-54.96) In MATLAB I entered the FNPW_OFFSET values and fit a shape-preserving spline. You can see the attached graph below to view the curve-fit. Interpolated output from the curve below is naturally multiplied by 1.1852. Volts MS 7.04 3.865 10.07 1.678 12.04 1.227 14.08 0.926 17.88 0.779 Following up on this, i have a 3bar fpr interpolating OFFCOMP gets me 1.1326 .. nehalem, i dont have your non-comped spline interpolation, but if i divide by 1.1852, I get Volts ms (2.7bar) ms (3bar) ms (4bar) 7.04 3.261 3.693 3.865 10.07 1.416 1.604 1.678 12.04 1.035 1.173 1.227 14.08 0.781 0.884 0.926 17.88 0.657 0.744 0.779 Does this look right? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on May 08, 2012, 02:14:33 PM Yes - That math looks correct. However, after a while of adjusting LTFT's, I ended up with:
3.12 1.35 0.99 0.75 0.63 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on May 08, 2012, 02:20:56 PM I don't get the whole LTFT tuning thing.
how can you do anything but adjust only 2 operating points of the bus voltage (i'm assuming ~14v out of the alternator, or regulated 12v during cranking) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on May 08, 2012, 06:22:42 PM Precisely the way you stated it. You need to make the assumption that your operation is not scalar, rather you are vector multiplying the entire table by your adjustment factor. new_val = (1+x) * old_val on the entire table as a vector in effect
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 02, 2012, 09:28:13 AM I've got the car's trims right, but i'm still having
1) cold start problems (possibly checkvalve related) 2) lumpy idle Anybody else have idle issues? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 15, 2012, 02:47:39 PM update
I've got the car's trims right, but i'm still having Due to cold plugs. Investigating multi-spark1) cold start problems (possibly checkvalve related) Quote 2) lumpy idle Bad IOP. Reverted first two load rows to stock, and my idle problems went away. Also, gave up on trim tuning. I'm back to the theoretical TVUB specs as posted in my earlier post, and I'm doing trim tuning with MAF/KRKTE tweaking. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: smurfbus on July 15, 2012, 11:57:17 PM Has anyone dialed the 1000cc EV14 TVUB and KRKTE to idle and work nicely?
I've had to change the theoritical values a lot and I'm not sure if I have other issues that cause this. Currently I'm at 0.061KRKTE (started with 0.033) and TVUB at 1.840 1.120 0.891 0.659 0.509 and those started with the latency map I was given when I bought the injectors and were much higher at 60psi 10V 1.880 12V 1.440 14V 1.080 18V 8.45 1192cc Too many revisions trying to smooth things out so now I took the DP out and changed my other (totally stuck) NB too so it does not affect my trims. I also have battery voltage issues that might give some trouble adjusting injector values? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: smurfbus on July 16, 2012, 10:34:41 AM Huh, first start was strange looking at STFTs. I had reset DTC's and IIRC done 060 adaptation but when I started the car B1 went +25 and over and B2 started to climb on the minus side and went to -20!!! These must be something in the ecu memory as I did not detach the battery. It took some time and restarts before things started to look normalish again. After some initial adjustments I went back to org latencymaps and started to adjust KRKTE and after 3 trips I think they are OKish at idle and part throttle. I'm at 0.04 now which is close to the calulated 0.033 keeping in mind I had had it at 0.07 and it worked there too.
Now I need to get the WB installed so I can see where the WOT is but it sounds like very rich as the power brakes down soundin like a DTM car. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: lulu2003 on July 17, 2012, 06:17:07 AM what kind of mechanical issues or fittings are needed to upgrade EV6 injectors to EV14?
it isn't plug&play I guess? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: trichard3000 on July 17, 2012, 04:11:48 PM what kind of mechanical issues or fittings are needed to upgrade EV6 injectors to EV14? it isn't plug&play I guess? Here's a decent AZ thread on this topic: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/445843-Questions-Regarding-Bosch-EV14-Injectors-And-Necessary-Hardware The o-ring to o-ring distance is slightly smaller for EV14s. There are two schools of thought. One is to add hats and fuel rail mounting spacers. The other is to simply replace the EV14 o-rings with stock ones and potentially shave the fuel rail mounting posts a bit. I haven't done either yet, but I have a set of EV14s that will go in at some point. I'll probably do the second option as reviews are favorable, it's less expensive, and there will be six fewer o-rings to fail. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 17, 2012, 05:07:51 PM I'm using the 034 spacers so i can run the clips
http://www.034motorsport.com/fuel-injection-solutions-injector-adapter-rs4-and-others-p-17911.html Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on July 18, 2012, 12:04:33 AM Assume this (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg)) to be accurate and we already know a 4-bar pressure regulator is 58.02 psi. Therefore FNPW_OFFCOMP has a theoretical value of: 1.1852. Using the same decimal accuracy as the calibration sheet: 1.1852 = 1.2179+(58.02-54.96)*(1.1638-1.2179)/(60.03-54.96) In MATLAB I entered the FNPW_OFFSET values and fit a shape-preserving spline. You can see the attached graph below to view the curve-fit. Interpolated output from the curve below is naturally multiplied by 1.1852. Volts MS 7.04 3.865 10.07 1.678 12.04 1.227 14.08 0.926 17.88 0.779 Now for KRKTE, the theoretical value is pretty simple to calculate. KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant ) KRKTE = 50.2624 * 0.4452 / ( 615 * .684) = .0532 These are the values I'm going to start my K04 tuning with using the rinse/repeat process after I get a wideband installed (based on the stock m-box). Could somebody please verify what I've done above? Thanks guys. As per me: KRKTE = 50.2624*Volume of cylinder(L)/ Qstat in g/min why are you using .684 constant? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 18, 2012, 08:30:05 AM grams vs cc...
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on July 18, 2012, 07:46:22 PM grams vs cc... But, 1gram=1cc...anf function frame also has no mention of it. I am bit confused. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 18, 2012, 08:30:03 PM 1 gram of gasoline != 1 cc
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on July 18, 2012, 11:48:34 PM The constant was recommended by the FR.
1 liter of petrol at 60-degrees F weighs .711kg, thats 711 grams / 1000 cc = .71 g / cc Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: lulu2003 on July 18, 2012, 11:54:38 PM of course the density of fuel is not 1.0 but I guess you both are not quite right.
I am not sure if there is a sinle reference to the fuel density in ME7 (like in EDC16). it compensates some minor changes in densitiy due to temp via fuel trim. FR says: KRKTE = 50.2624 * Vhzyl / Qstat with QStat in gramms/min of fuel. If you have that number QStat : perfect. but in most times you get cc/min flow with n-hetpan with has the the density of the mentioned 0.684. but the physics of a nozzle are not that simple. If you want to calculate the flow rate changes of different fluids with different densitys you need to compare them on the base of the volumetric(!) flow rate and correct it by the square root of the density quotient. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 19, 2012, 01:15:39 PM BTW, even after taking into account TVUB, the EV14's *still* aren't exactly linear at low open times
I'm told they're similar to the injector dynamics ID-1000s: (http://nyet.org/cars/images/ID1000LD3B.png) in which case some FKKVS tweaking may help you get rid of erratic fuel trims even after you've got TVUB dialed... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 19, 2012, 01:21:09 PM Oh. One more thing.
The stock injectors are ALSO not linear (even after TVUB compensation)... yet stock FKKVS is completely flat (all 1s). So I'm guessing the non-linearities are tuned out (STOCK!) in the HFM maps. As far as I know, there aren't any other sufficiently flexible injector maps.. IOW it is probably also ok to do trim tuning in HFM/TVUB and leave FKKVS alone, even for EV14s? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on July 19, 2012, 09:08:56 PM of course the density of fuel is not 1.0 but I guess you both are not quite right. I am not sure if there is a sinle reference to the fuel density in ME7 (like in EDC16). it compensates some minor changes in densitiy due to temp via fuel trim. FR says: KRKTE = 50.2624 * Vhzyl / Qstat with QStat in gramms/min of fuel. If you have that number QStat : perfect. but in most times you get cc/min flow with n-hetpan with has the the density of the mentioned 0.684. but the physics of a nozzle are not that simple. If you want to calculate the flow rate changes of different fluids with different densitys you need to compare them on the base of the volumetric(!) flow rate and correct it by the square root of the density quotient. guys, guys: mistake admitted! density is not 1. But during calculation of KRKTE cylinder volume is already converted into mass by multiplying with air density (rho luft)..so why bother to convert fuel mass into volume. All this to calculate injector open time. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: lulu2003 on July 20, 2012, 03:37:46 AM ???
Rho Luft = Density of Air (which is in summarized in the 50.2624). Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 09, 2012, 04:57:59 PM stock airbox, stock maf, stock intake setup, AWE intercoolers, RS4 K04 up-pipes, BW K04's, 3" ASP DP setup into a milltek single, stock fpr, rs4 fuel pump
currently testing the following: krkte: .0535 tvub: 2.23 1.49 1.10 0.80 0.69 fkkvs: (transpose and repeat for all rows in the table) [in other words: all RPMs get the same PW non-linearity treatment.] 1.26 1.18 1.13 1.08 1.06 1.05 1.04 1.03 1.02 1.02 1.02 1.01 1.01 1.01 1.00 1.00 will report back, but i believe this is my final setup calibrated to the stock airbox. so serious and have yet to get the gas stink. stft's and ltft's don't show much seek-and-find either... will confirm this, but i'm convinced i've precisely cracked the code on these injectors. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 09, 2012, 05:04:27 PM additionally. for the mathematically inclined out there. if the fkkvs i'm conjecturing is not correct, i believe the correct one to be in the affine hull of this monotonic plane.
if you didn't understand what i just said: if you for any reason find the FKKVS is wrong, i believe it's at most wrong only in the modulo sense. let's take the estimator FKKVS_hat:= (FKKVS-1) * (1.00+K) + 1.00, there exists a K such that minsup(FKKVS_hat,FKKVS) can be labelled optimal. again if you didn't get what i'm saying. subtract 1 and look at the positive values as values which need to be multipled by a scaling fraction to arrive at the optimal FKKVS_hat. adjust K accordingly. seriously i'm out of ways to explain myself now... lmfao!!! lemme try one more description: 1.00 is no adjustment. so if you find this to be wrong, just uniformly multiply the residual (correction factor above 1.00) by some percentage, either up or down (most likely down) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 25, 2012, 11:27:56 AM Fact? Audi updates their FKKVS Table Definition in the RS4 K/Q-box.
It appears they solved the exact issue Nye / others mentioned: Large Injector, Low-Latency pulse non-linearity. They shift the Pulse-width axis to have lower ms table values. They also use the table, not just setting it to Constant 1.00 in both the K-box and Q-box. Perhaps I'll check the F-box later as well just to see if it was an overall RS4-issue, or just from the K/Q which appear to be M-box derived. Seeing the same values in the F-box would imply they knew bigger injectors required active / massive compensation. Some young engineer at Cosworth Racing - probably named David Brown or [Aston Martin] - solved the issue. Fictional stories aside: From [M-box]: {1.50 2.25 3.00 4.50 6.00 7.50 9.00 10.5 12.0 13.5 15.0 16.5 18.0 19.5 21.0 24.0} From [Q-box]: {0.85 0.95 0.98 1.00 1.50 2.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 9.00 10.0 11.0 12.0} More to follow? Stay glued to your seats dude. [pours a white russian] The Q-box's table from WinOLS below: Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on August 25, 2012, 11:46:53 AM My question is, given an FKKVS of 1, how does a constant (for a given bus voltage) but non-zero TVUB affect this:
(http://nyet.org/cars/images/ID1000LD3B.png) A fixed offset to ontime does WHAT to that error? I'm not smart enough to do the math, but i bet you are :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 25, 2012, 01:09:10 PM Great questions. I'm not totally sure on the answers tbh, but here's what I do know. The pulsewidth seen on that graph must include the VBAT offset already. That's why it's starting at 0 until like .75 ms. Therefore, assuming vbat is right, FKKVS simply corrects the pulsewidth modification as a whole. If vbat-operating-voltage offset is say .80 ms, then the pulsewidths would start from there. so if the car needed 1.5ms calculated, that's only .70ms of which is actual fuel, .80ms of which is recharge to basically sputter (idle is like a dribbling straw). For this reason, at lower pw's regardless of rpm, we have to correct the expected fuel portion of the PW to account for the fuel "reload friction" by increasing the requested PW. This isn't the case on a smaller set of injectors such as with the stock s4. Also--- the S4 has settings on the KFLF map which may be accounting for this too. Recall PRJ's hack which multiplies kflf * kfkhfm.
I'm not certain yet on whether to change the airbox map kfkhfm, kflf, or the combination but the attached spreadsheet show's the FKKVS axis change and the KFLF 1.00'd out. My idle is fantastic now. I'm going to try kflf and kfkhfm from the rs4 next. Logs are looking good, i'll try to clean them up and post. Attached are my current settings of things I believe to be relevant for changing to these injectors. Hoping to bring this thread to some form of closure. My current updated XDF is also attached. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on August 26, 2012, 04:45:04 PM My question is, given an FKKVS of 1, how does a constant (for a given bus voltage) but non-zero TVUB affect this: (http://nyet.org/cars/images/ID1000LD3B.png) A fixed offset to ontime does WHAT to that error? I'm not smart enough to do the math, but i bet you are :) Here's my concern. Where can this exact graph for varying voltages obtained for our actual 52# ev14 injectors which are 628cc @ 4-bar. Should I send one to ID and get them to benchmark it? What does that cost? If not, then we are sort of guessing based on the specs of that 1000cc model, perhaps assuming a sqrt(4/3) to convert that graph to 4-bar. I could try digitizing that graph and making some basic modelling assumptions. I'm happy with the stock RS4 axis/values so far. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ironital on August 26, 2012, 06:36:01 PM I'm going to be buying ID 1000cc injectors... I wonder how well ME7 will cope ;D am waiting to know your news because i have the same me7I want to know how to tunne it my self Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jibberjive on August 26, 2012, 06:49:45 PM There are probably quite a few of us with 1000cc EV14's on here, just fyi. You just tune them like any other injector.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Bische on August 26, 2012, 07:21:05 PM This is a great thread, im also on 1000cc EV14's currently dialing my fueling. I have been having some trouble getting uber rich on hard transitions, down in low .7x's at some scenarios.
Im on returnless and I believe I have tracked down my issue to lay in the FRFLSDP -fuel rail pressue compensation, in the stock form this almost doubled my KRKTE over 300mBar boost/fuel rail pressure drop. Just wanted to put this here if there are more people attempting to dial in returnless fuel systems. I have recalculated the whole map/axis now to suit up to 1.5bar boost, and I hope this will get me in the right direction. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Bische on August 27, 2012, 12:06:53 PM I also want to add one thing regarding the FRFLSDP map, the factor shows up in Winols like 0.000031, the factor is really 0.00003052 but rounds off as it is entered/copied.
This is obviously going to make a big difference, I found this out the hard way and wanted to put that here for future searches regarding FRLFSDP. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jibberjive on August 27, 2012, 06:15:12 PM From [M-box]: {1.50 2.25 3.00 4.50 6.00 7.50 9.00 10.5 12.0 13.5 15.0 16.5 18.0 19.5 21.0 24.0} Interesting that the Q-box is almost off by close to just a scalar (ie. similar values if you multiply Q-box by 2). After multiplying the Q-box by 2, the shape of those (just by eyeballing) isn't too crazy far off.From [Q-box]: {0.85 0.95 0.98 1.00 1.50 2.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 9.00 10.0 11.0 12.0} Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Bische on September 04, 2012, 11:34:08 PM Question: Should one correct KFKHFM in the lowest load region(ie when the IPW is too low to be linear) before correcting the FKKVS?
Since the average 02 correction can exceed +15% and more in those regions in my case, I dont think it would be wise no? I was thinking of correcting the KFKHFM down to the lowest load where the IPW's are still steady, then extrapolate down in the lowest load columns. After this is done I correct the FKKVS? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: GaroBlu on October 09, 2012, 06:14:54 PM stock airbox, stock maf, stock intake setup, AWE intercoolers, RS4 K04 up-pipes, BW K04's, 3" ASP DP setup into a milltek single, stock fpr, rs4 fuel pump currently testing the following: ... will report back, but i believe this is my final setup calibrated to the stock airbox. so serious and have yet to get the gas stink. stft's and ltft's don't show much seek-and-find either... will confirm this, but i'm convinced i've precisely cracked the code on these injectors. Any news on this or logs? I don't have the stock airbox or maf and I am trying to get fueling dialed in. I would assume that if this was correct, similar post-maf setups would have little effect. This would mean that those of us with different intake systems would only need to bother with KFKHFM, MLHFM etc. I know there is a lot of debate on which maps to change, but I believe in getting a good baseline and changing the appropriately labeled map. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on November 27, 2012, 12:33:02 PM Sup players! Nehalem back again with your rock-star EV14 injector update. No doubt, Santa arrived early this year!
Lol, anyways. For the standard injectors, here's the deal. EV14 52# @ 3-bar / 60# @ 4-bar. Run the following: KRKTE: 0.05495 TVUB: 2.5203 1.2695 1.0081 0.8881 0.7654 The elite trick: KFFWL_0_A / KFFWL_1_A: Multiply the entire table by 1.10, or a 10% increase. Could be more or less, but I've found 10% to work quite well so far. Obv, I'll update as I continue to tune. Car starts right up and doesn't hesitate very much during cold operations. You'd obviously be an idiot if you go testing the car's power while the engine is cold. What I do know is that this trick restores most of the car's cold-temperature smoothness and eliminates the nasty bucking we all have grown to know and hate. My theory, in fact many people's theory, is that the characteristic bucking occurs because the car's electronic throttle interrupts and retards timing and throttle-plate angle, which to the driver feels super-non-linear because there isn't a physical cable connecting your foot and the throttle. Thus it's really an issue of "expected" versus "perceived" acceleration, for you HCI (human computer interaction) experts. Therefore, you can't just "press the gas" more like you would on a cabled throttle [or an old / antique / carbed] car. Basically, without this trick, the incorrectly calibrated cold start of the engine (read: overly lean AFR) makes the response feel like the car is straight up terrible to drive until the operating temperature raises a bit. The worst part is that the closed-loop lambda operations turn the leanness into compensated richness, and thus the fueling variance of cold-starts without this trick straight up sucks. It sucks, got that everyone, it blows huge dongage. Use this trick. [or whatever "trick" you like to use, just sayin.] One last bit: KFZWWLRL: If you run advanced timing, like the baller we all know you are, then you probably want to *double* the warmup timing retardation chart. But hey, you know your setup, and it's your engine. KFLF, FKKVS, KFKHFM are still stock M-box. OK home stars. Knowledge is power. Fly high young jedis. Dr Brown out. p.s. I run the Stock MAF / Stock Airbox / Stock Bosch MAF sensor from the early model A-box. M.Y. 2000 car. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on November 28, 2012, 01:18:24 PM Hey,
So I've migrated to EV14s a couple of months ago and I must say I am really happy with them. berTTos has also done the migration before me and he was so happy with the new EV14s not to mention that they were super cheap to get, I also did it. So I am about to share our findings and experience about running with these injectors. Not that almost all of this information is comint from berTTos himself he just does not have the time at the moment to post about it so I am just relaying this information with his approval and I have no intention to take any credit for it. First of all we got the Ford Racing EV14s. I ordered them from summit racing for a really awesome price $285 for 8 injectors, plus $35 for the adapters. The part numbers at summit racing are FMS-M9593-G302 (injectors set of 8) and FMS-M-14464-A8 (adapter kit). Since these injectors are a wee bit shorter than the stock ones some people just install an injector adapter to make them as tall as the Siemens Dekas, but instead we just used the bottom o-rings from the dekas to make them seal better at the intake manifold and I did not have any leaks there after doing about 4000 km. I am running with KRKTE set to 0.05583 using 98 RON in Europe (which is still a little bit too much for me), but berTTos has to use a way higher value than this (0.06105) due to the fact that he is using US fuel which it seems has way more ethanol in it. Also he had a chance to talk with some Ford tuners and they mentioned that in Ford applications it is common to see fuel pressure slightly exceed the FPR rating when using a high flow fuel pump (which I am (Aeromotive)) and they also noted that it is usually a consistent deviation so it can be accounted for by slightly lowering KRKTE. This might not be the case for us but I think it's nice to keep in mind in case someone can actually do a real test. Currently the weather is kinda cold here, around 4-5 degC during the night and it's going to get colder next week and I haven't seen any cold start issues and the car is totally smooth even after starting to drive right away after a cold start. berTTos found out that the stock TEMIN, TEMINVA are too low for these injectors so we have been running with the following values: TEMIN: 0.7788 TEMINVA: 0.7788 Against the low temp wall firm development we have been using increasing the values in the acceleration enrichment factor tables (KFBAKL_0_A, KFBAKL_1_A) for low temperature ranges and the results have been pretty smooth. Additionally KFVAKL_0_A and KFVAKL_1_A has been 0'd out completely and lambda regulation has been also altered. ps: we have been using 85mm MAF housings with a Hitachi MAF. One car is having an old-style IM and the other one is having a new-style IM. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on November 28, 2012, 01:45:15 PM Awesome. Thank you for the summary.
lambda regulation has been also altered. Can you elaborate? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on November 28, 2012, 02:18:31 PM The relevant bits for an M-box:
Lambda regulation ZKRKAT @ 0x1C2FE: Integration speed integrator - rate of RKAT adaption (long term) (%/s), 16bit, float, precision 4 ZKRKAZ @ 0x1C300: Integration speed integrator - rate of RKAZ adaption (short term) (%/s), 16bit, float, precision 4 MLO1 @ 0x1C2E4: upper level air flow range 1 - LTFT Active at IDLE (kg/h), 16bit, float, precision 3 MLO2 @ 0x14EFC: upper level air flow range 2 -- FRAU small area regulation (kg/h), 16bit, float, precision 3 MLO3 @ 0x1C2E6: upper air threshold quantity range 3 -- STFT Active Idle (kg/h), 16bit, float, precision 3 MLU2 @ 0x1C2E8: lower air flow rate threshold range 2 -- FRAU Small Area Regulation (kg/h), 16bit, float, precision 3 MLU4 @ 0x14EFE: lower air flow rate threshold range 4 -- FRAO Large Area Regulation (kg/h), 16bit, float, precision 3 RLO2 @ 0x18CD7: upper load threshold range 2 -- FRAU Small Area Regulation (%), 16bit, float, precision 3 RLU2 @ 0x18CD9: lower rl (load) - Threshold range 2 -- FRAU Small Area Regulation (%), 16bit, float, precision 3 RLU3 @ 0x18CDA: lower rl (load) - Threshold range 3 -- STFT Active Idle (%), 16bit, float, precision 3 RLU4 @ 0x18CDB: rl (load) lower threshold multiplicative upper range -- FRAO Large Area Regulation (%), 16bit, float, precision 3 ---- the following is a list of modified ones, all the others are stock: ZKRKAT: 0.2490 ZKRKAZ: 0.1025 MLO2: 285.000 MLO3: 115.000 MLU2: 40.000 MLU4: 340.000 RLO2: 114.750 RLO3: 54.750 RLU2: 30.000 RLU3: 28.500 RLU4: 87.750 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on November 28, 2012, 02:23:10 PM guess we should really start to have a central place for definition files ... netmofo github repo? :-\
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on November 28, 2012, 04:24:59 PM https://github.com/nyetwurk/ecuxplot/tree/master/data
I really need to get on ASAP2 conversions Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on November 28, 2012, 04:29:44 PM Can you elaborate on the reasoning for the lambda regulation and wall film changes so I can do a s4wiki writeup?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Bische on November 28, 2012, 08:34:25 PM Im also curious why one wants to zero acceleration/decceleration enrichment?
I have always been under the impression that if an aftermarket injector is calibrated correctly it should give you the same fueling charateristic as the stock injectors? Im talking about warmup, wallfilm, acc/dec enrichment, trims and all that jazz. Take the wall film for example, if we were talking stand alone ECU's we would add injector PW based on RPM and TMOT -here we would need to calibrate this each time we change injectors or change fuel. But in the ME7 the injectors are setup to inject x amount fuel based on a fuel mass request, rk_w. The wall film(and all of those other above mentioned functions) is calculated in the requested rk_w, so regardless of what injectors/injector calibration we have, the requested amount of fuel is still going to be the same. So when the new bigger injector is calibrated to give that x amount of fuel at the right voltage and pulsewidth, the injected fuel mass will be the same as if we were still running stock injectors? This is just my own observations :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: berTTos on November 29, 2012, 06:35:00 AM Can you elaborate on the reasoning for the lambda regulation and wall film changes so I can do a s4wiki writeup? fuel droplet size, fuel spray spatial distribution and local crossflow velocity are influencing variables for wall film formation and breakup that are quite different on a stage 3 type application. while it is true that the delivered fuel parcel (mass) ought to remain unchanged compared to oem (if the larger injector is properly calibrated), the formation and breakup of the wall film are quite different as this action is influenced by droplet size, mass and velocity (magnitude and direction). the volumetric flow of droplets emerging from the wall film is directly influenced by the size and velocity of the particles impinging on the surface and, of course, by the number of fuel particles that are able to escape impact with the wall at a particular crossflow. the ESUK function is meant to provide a model of wall film behavior and a means to preserve the wall film mass at close to steady state through load transitions (gross injector transitions) so as to prevent a momentary lean condition on throttle tip in (large air mass reduces wall film) as well as a momentary rich condition on deceleration (reduction in air mass/velocity allows an increase in wall film formation). if left at oem calibration the result is an under-compensation on cold starts at cold ambient temperature and an over-compensation at operating temperature. the cold scenario presents as bucking and uneven throttle response following a cold start - perhaps to the point of engine stall - as much of the fuel condenses as wall film leaving an insufficient amount of atomized fuel for combustion. the 90*C+ scenario presents as less than ideal combustion at light throttle while at operating temperature (felt as engine/driveline vibration especially noticeable with upgraded mounts) as the wall film mass is erratic. this inconsistent wall film mass will also result in an oscillation in lambda regulation (short and long term for small and large air masses) which will exasperate the uneven wall film compensation. all of this reduces driver satisfaction. the vehicle will be silky smooth one minute then driveline vibrations the next. at steady-state cruise the system will eventually equalize, however, once the vehicle slows for traffic then accelerates again the driver will notice the subtle vibration until equalization is again realized. rnagy posted my current KFBAKL. KFVAKL is 0’d for now until I have time to properly calibrate it (though I may just leave the deceleration compensation off as the results are excellent). as far as lambda regulation – i calibrated small and large areas for a k04/85mm MAF application and the associated increase in air masses (using RS4 values as a reference) and then logged many thousands of miles observing lambda regulation (lots of road trips) until i found settings that satisfactorily adapted for large and small air masses for both short and long term values in a timely fashion whilst avoiding the tendency for oscillation upon both slight and large load transitions. ALSO - i've attached my .xdf which has all of the Lambda Regulation and Injection Transition maps/scalars defined. thx to Nye for all of his work on the base xdf. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: imolasb5 on November 29, 2012, 03:42:12 PM fuel droplet size, fuel spray spatial distribution and local crossflow velocity are influencing variables for wall film formation and breakup that are quite different on a stage 3 type application. while it is true that the delivered fuel parcel (mass) ought to remain unchanged compared to oem (if the larger injector is properly calibrated), the formation and breakup of the wall film are quite different as this action is influenced by droplet size, mass and velocity (magnitude and direction). the volumetric flow of droplets emerging from the wall film is directly influenced by the size and velocity of the particles impinging on the surface and, of course, by the number of fuel particles that are able to escape impact with the wall at a particular crossflow. the ESUK function is meant to provide a model of wall film behavior and a means to preserve the wall film mass at close to steady state through load transitions (gross injector transitions) so as to prevent a momentary lean condition on throttle tip in (large air mass reduces wall film) as well as a momentary rich condition on deceleration (reduction in air mass/velocity allows an increase in wall film formation). if left at oem calibration the result is an under-compensation on cold starts at cold ambient temperature and an over-compensation at operating temperature. the cold scenario presents as bucking and uneven throttle response following a cold start - perhaps to the point of engine stall - as much of the fuel condenses as wall film leaving an insufficient amount of atomized fuel for combustion. the 90*C+ scenario presents as less than ideal combustion at light throttle while at operating temperature (felt as engine/driveline vibration especially noticeable with upgraded mounts) as the wall film mass is erratic. this inconsistent wall film mass will also result in an oscillation in lambda regulation (short and long term for small and large air masses) which will exasperate the uneven wall film compensation. all of this reduces driver satisfaction. the vehicle will be silky smooth one minute then driveline vibrations the next. at steady-state cruise the system will eventually equalize, however, once the vehicle slows for traffic then accelerates again the driver will notice the subtle vibration until equalization is again realized. rnagy posted my current KFBAKL. KFVAKL is 0’d for now until I have time to properly calibrate it (though I may just leave the deceleration compensation off as the results are excellent). as far as lambda regulation – i calibrated small and large areas for a k04/85mm MAF application and the associated increase in air masses (using RS4 values as a reference) and then logged many thousands of miles observing lambda regulation (lots of road trips) until i found settings that satisfactorily adapted for large and small air masses for both short and long term values in a timely fashion whilst avoiding the tendency for oscillation upon both slight and large load transitions. ALSO - i've attached my .xdf which has all of the Lambda Regulation and Injection Transition maps/scalars defined. thx to Nye for all of his work on the base xdf. Thanks man! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Bische on November 30, 2012, 11:55:52 AM text Thanks for your explaination, very thorough :) Dont take this the wrong way, I totally see were youre coming from, but please explain why this would crave for altering the request? Isnt the request formed around the head ports size/shape, thermal conductivity and airflow rather than injector spray pattern efficiency? I have battled my 1000cc EV14's for months, I have been all over the place trying to get them right with tuning wall film, acc/decc enrichment, KRKTE, FRLFSDP - you name it. Now I have them running very close to perfect, but if there is something I am missing, I am eager to learn :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: berTTos on November 30, 2012, 04:09:39 PM Thanks for your explaination, very thorough :) Dont take this the wrong way, I totally see were youre coming from, but please explain why this would crave for altering the request? Isnt the request formed around the head ports size/shape, thermal conductivity and airflow rather than injector spray pattern efficiency? I have battled my 1000cc EV14's for months, I have been all over the place trying to get them right with tuning wall film, acc/decc enrichment, KRKTE, FRLFSDP - you name it. Now I have them running very close to perfect, but if there is something I am missing, I am eager to learn :) the spray pattern and atomization characteristics significantly affect wall film development and breakdown AND the amount of wall film present at steady state. it is true (or ought to be) that the effective fuel mass is the same, regardless of injector in use and i believe this is true in the macro sense. however, when we examine combustion on a smaller time scale, the amount of fuel present in the film, atomizing out of the film and injected fuel particles escaping contact with the film we end up with an inconsistent fuel mass (especially at light throttle) for each combustion event - not a huge difference, but enough to be felt by the driver and enough to upset lambda regulation. while on this topic - it is shocking how much driveline vibration comes from the tune. i remember an AW forum member running a popular stage 3 tune trying to troubleshoot driveline vibration. he went so far as to replace his entire driveline and the vibrations persisted. i guarantee it came from the tune. the proper way to correct this is to recalibrate the wall film model. this is a difficult task. i suppose one could start with the recommended Bosch reference values and simply begin trial and error testing. the next best thing (and considerably easier) is to leave the model alone and to alter the compensation. it works consistently at all temps and altitudes and that's good enough for me. and, as they say - 'the proof is in the pudding.' this EV14 file is running smoothly at various altitudes and temperatures on many stage 3 vehicles without any cold start issues whatsoever, no strange rich or lean spots on throttle transitions and no strange driveline vibrations. these engines have various cylinder heads, supporting mods and run on different fuel formulations (all at least 93 octane). they all run Ford Racing EV14 52lb injectors. one last issue - the 1000cc injectors. are these 'modified?' i've had nothing but trouble calibrating drilled injectors. their response deviates considerably from their original specs and each set is a little different. if this is the case i don't doubt that you're having to compensate all over the place to get them dialed in. also (and i'm sure you're already aware of this) be certain to stay in the linear pulsewidth range and out of the area below the 'knee' (nonlinear range), as best you can, in the injector pw curve. the problem is knowing what the curve is. with drilled injectors the only way to know for sure is to send them in for examination. and the bad part? - the data collected is only valid for that set and will likely vary from another set. if you'd like a copy of my bin pm me - you're welcome to it. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 09, 2012, 05:23:22 PM berTTos found out that the stock TEMIN, TEMINVA are too low for these injectors so we have been running with the following values: TEMIN: 0.7788 TEMINVA: 0.7788 I don't get this either; why would you want a HIGHER TEMIN? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 10, 2012, 07:22:53 AM I don't get this either; why would you want a HIGHER TEMIN? Because they are mixing up TE and TI and doing it wrong. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 10, 2012, 08:28:41 AM I don't get this either; why would you want a HIGHER TEMIN? Well my theory is if you calculate TEMIN purely mathematically after switching to larger injectors you should end up having a lower TEMIN, but the EV14s are way different than the stock injectors or the Dekas so in real life this rule does not seem to be a pratical approach. And by having a larger TEMIN I guess I was supposed to be rich at idle and at really light load areas, but I am not, everything seems to be spot on -- btw i am running with nehalem's KRKTE at the moment which zeroed out my LTFTs completely. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 10, 2012, 09:07:01 AM Well my theory is if you calculate TEMIN purely mathematically after switching to larger injectors you should end up having a lower TEMIN, but the EV14s are way different than the stock injectors or the Dekas so in real life this rule does not seem to be a pratical approach. And by having a larger TEMIN I guess I was supposed to be rich at idle and at really light load areas, but I am not, everything seems to be spot on -- btw i am running with nehalem's KRKTE at the moment which zeroed out my LTFTs completely. Your theory is not correct. TEMIN is calculated for effective injection time, latency has little to do with it. Unless you want to say that your big injector flows less at low pulsewidth than the stock injectors due to non-linearity, but this is not the case. The reason you are still fine with TEMIN, is because it's quite low stock. Yours is tuned incorrectly, end of story. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 10, 2012, 09:18:04 AM Your theory is not correct. TEMIN is calculated for effective injection time, latency has little to do with it. Unless you want to say that your big injector flows less at low pulsewidth than the stock injectors due to non-linearity, but this is not the case. The reason you are still fine with TEMIN, is because it's quite low stock. Yours is tuned incorrectly, end of story. I thought EV14s are not stable below 0.7ms and Dekas aren't stable below 1.5ms. -- but hey I am just learning this :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 10, 2012, 09:24:41 AM I thought EV14s are not stable below 0.7ms and Dekas aren't stable below 1.5ms. -- but hey I am just learning this :) Yes, go on, set 630cc dekas to 1.5ms and let me know how you get on. ::) 0.7ms and 1.5ms includes dead time. Minimum effective injection time is something completely different... It is called TEMIN not TIMIN. Down low you have a linearity error, that's what FKKVS is for. I guess once you get a bit more experience you will see why I say what I say. I just felt the need to point this out, so others do not make the same mistake. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: berTTos on December 10, 2012, 10:21:25 AM Because they are mixing up TE and TI and doing it wrong. 1. take it easy 2. no one is mixing up TE and TI what is the prescribed reference value of TEMIN per the Funktionsrahmen? why is the stock TEMIN value 0.5? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 10, 2012, 10:45:59 AM Yes, go on, set 630cc dekas to 1.5ms and let me know how you get on. ::) 0.7ms and 1.5ms includes dead time. Minimum effective injection time is something completely different... It is called TEMIN not TIMIN. Down low you have a linearity error, that's what FKKVS is for. I guess once you get a bit more experience you will see why I say what I say. I just felt the need to point this out, so others do not make the same mistake. What values are you recommending for TEMIN and TEMINVA? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: masterj on December 10, 2012, 11:21:12 AM What values are you recommending for TEMIN and TEMINVA? I would set it to same ms as idle injection time.... Or you can set them to 0, to disable them if you confident that they're not needed ;) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 10, 2012, 11:43:19 AM I would set it to same ms as idle injection time.... Or you can set them to 0, to disable them if you confident that they're not needed ;) This is incorrect. You will run rich on ultralight-load if you do this.Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 10, 2012, 11:58:26 AM stock TEMIN of 0.5ms effectively disables TEMIN as stock injectors never go this low, regardless how light the load is, before hitting VA and disabling injection altogether. My guess is that Bosch put this in as a feature geared towards injectors unstable below certain pulse width thinking that it is better to run rich than misfire.
You should not have to rely on TEMIN at all unless you run dekas :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 10, 2012, 12:05:46 PM stock TEMIN of 0.5ms effectively disables TEMIN as stock injectors never go this low, regardless how light the load is, before hitting VA and disabling injection altogether. My guess is that Bosch put this in as a feature geared towards injectors unstable below certain pulse width thinking that it is better to run rich than misfire. You should not have to rely on TEMIN at all unless you run dekas :) Why did people post a few weeks ago that they were setting TEMIN and TEMINVA to .77 for the 60# ev14's @ 4-bar? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 10, 2012, 12:12:07 PM Why did people post a few weeks ago that they were setting TEMIN and TEMINVA to .77 for the 60# ev14's @ 4-bar? Likely for the same reason why people mash the +% button on KFMIOP. julex is correct, TEMIN is usually used to limit the injector pulsewidth to the lowest possible value where a reliable spray can be obtained and the fueling is deterministic. For 550cc injectors this value is certainly not 0.7ms+lagtime or anything remotely close to that. If you observe said injectors on a bench, that can simulate any pulsewidth you will also see this. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 11, 2012, 07:50:58 AM Likely for the same reason why people mash the +% button on KFMIOP. julex is correct, TEMIN is usually used to limit the injector pulsewidth to the lowest possible value where a reliable spray can be obtained and the fueling is deterministic. For 550cc injectors this value is certainly not 0.7ms+lagtime or anything remotely close to that. If you observe said injectors on a bench, that can simulate any pulsewidth you will also see this. Yeah, the only reason why somebody would do 0.77 on 60# injectors is to crotch their improperly implemented, or lack of, TVUB table and force car to run rich on low loads to prevent stalling during clutch in/out/AC on and moving the steering wheel around when in stop.... How do I know? I had dekas once... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 11, 2012, 10:29:24 AM Yeah, the only reason why somebody would do 0.77 on 60# injectors is to crotch their improperly implemented, or lack of, TVUB table and force car to run rich on low loads to prevent stalling during clutch in/out/AC on and moving the steering wheel around when in stop.... How do I know? I had dekas once... We are not talking about 60# dekas here. (just as a sidenote so that we don't mix things up in this topic)Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: berTTos on December 11, 2012, 10:41:11 AM Likely for the same reason why people mash the +% button on KFMIOP. julex is correct, TEMIN is usually used to limit the injector pulsewidth to the lowest possible value where a reliable spray can be obtained and the fueling is deterministic. For 550cc injectors this value is certainly not 0.7ms+lagtime or anything remotely close to that. If you observe said injectors on a bench, that can simulate any pulsewidth you will also see this. again, i ask - what is the prescribed reference value for TEMIN, per the Funktionsrahmen? if you've had the Ford Racing 47lb (M-9593-G302) EV14 injectors independently flow tested and you know something i don't (data) regarding the pw curve (low slope and high slope) at 4 bar - it would be great if you shared. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 11:31:47 AM if you've had the Ford Racing 47lb (M-9593-G302) EV14 injectors independently flow tested and you know something i don't (data) regarding the pw curve (low slope and high slope) at 4 bar - it would be great if you shared. I know a lot about the bosch 500cc and 550cc injectors. Probably tuned about 20 cars on them, and I have seen how they work on a flow bench.For the last time, the 0.7ms quoted in the data sheet has nothing to do with TEMIN. As for sharing - maybe if you change your tone. You are the one challenging simple physics, not the rest of the people in this thread. Acting like someone owes you something is not going to get you very far. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 11, 2012, 11:34:43 AM As for sharing - maybe if you change your tone. Oh get over yourself. Its just as annoying to demand that people "change their tone" as to demand free tunes ;P I know BerTTos, and you are seeing an attack where there isn't any. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 11, 2012, 11:38:09 AM Oh get over yourself. as for sharing, we all clearly know wms knows nothing, ohh wait yah, ohh forgot right yah. there ya go... back on our island of knowledgeable insiders that tune 1000hp gtr whatchamacallit's Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 11:46:00 AM I know BerTTos, and you are seeing an attack where there isn't any. Really, well I think someone is misunderstanding the FR, and is about ready to have a cat fight over it.I am not going to bother to get drawn into such crap. Plain and simple. Yeah sorry, people are opinionated bastards. If I don't like the way someone is talking to me, I am not going to give them anything. You should know me better by now than to post crap which amounts to "you don't want to share because you don't know anything". I think I've contributed plenty to this resource to show otherwise. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 11, 2012, 12:10:11 PM The 0.7ms from Ev14 data sheet is only an FYI.
It doesn't mean you have to squirt at a minimum of 0.7ms all the time. Taken literally, it means: "don't use this size injector in the application where requested pulse width frequently falls under this threshold as you will get mixture for loads requiring pulse widths below this value". TEMIN should only be used to force minimum pulse width on an on injector that can't operate reliably below a certain threshold. If you have some monstrous injectors like 2000cc that can't properly operate at say 0.50ms that might be required for proper idle but do ok at 0.70ms, then you TEMIN 0.70 and run pig rich a idle but at least you do run instead of car coughing and sputtering all over. Have a look at what Ev14 run at a warm engine idle (AC and headlights off) to give you an idea what the real life minimum pulse width these will run at. Subtract about 10-20% for light decel situation (just before VA) and that's the value. Now, if it is 0.60ms, then you might have inconsistent mixture but the cool thing about very low loads (slightly below idle) is that they disable closed loop so who cares. So long the car idles allright with solid closed loop, you're good to go. Just zero out TEMIN if it really bothers you so much. Having said that I run 1000cc modified EV14 on my car and I idle at stock idle just fine... My pulsewidths are 0.68 - 0.70 at idle, right at the threshold of ev14 repeatability. Interestingly enough the min pulsewidth is also susceptible to fuel rail pressures. I don't know it is lower and raises with the rail pressure though.... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 11, 2012, 12:26:18 PM TEMIN should only be used to force minimum pulse width on an on injector that can't operate reliably below a certain threshold. If you have some monstrous injectors like 2000cc that can't properly operate at say 0.50ms that might be required for proper idle but do ok at 0.70ms, then you TEMIN 0.70 and run pig rich a idle but at least you do run instead of car coughing and sputtering all over. That was how I interpreted this thread so far... question is, if you hit the TEMIN threshold and run pig rich at idle, what happens to idle trims? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 11, 2012, 12:33:53 PM Nothing since ECU recognizes that TEMIN is used and flips b_lrs1 and b_lrs2 bits to disable closed loop and associated stuff, including trim adaptation.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 11, 2012, 12:44:25 PM Really, well I think someone is misunderstanding the FR, and is about ready to have a cat fight over it. I am not going to bother to get drawn into such crap. Plain and simple. Yeah sorry, people are opinionated bastards. If I don't like the way someone is talking to me, I am not going to give them anything. You should know me better by now than to post crap which amounts to "you don't want to share because you don't know anything". I think I've contributed plenty to this resource to show otherwise. Shrug. I don't feel entitled to worship. Neither should you. Many people appreciate the time and effort you have spent. Some will express it, some won't. You'll get a lot of ungrateful bastards demanding things from you no matter what. You can chastise them, you can ignore them. Either way, the result is exactly the same. IMO, if you are being helpful because you want gratitude in return, you'll always be disappointed. If you are helpful because you find it intellectually stimulating, then it doesn't matter how people respond. Me, I like to explain things because it invariably leads me to a better understanding of the material. Those people who REFUSE to ever try to explain something will never have that experience. Their loss, not mine :) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 12:59:57 PM IMO, if you are being helpful because you want gratitude in return, you'll always be disappointed. If you are helpful because you find it intellectually stimulating, then it doesn't matter how people respond. I never expect anything in return. I try to give more than I take and that's good enough for me.I do expect people to be polite when they are asking about something. As for TEMIN always remember, this is BEFORE injector offset gets applied. The data sheet value just states minimum pulsewidth. It does not say minimum pulsewidth PLUS offset. Food for thought. For the EV14 550cc injector, it says 0.7 minimum on the data sheet. With a lag time of about 0.8 at 14V this is 1.5ms actual injector duration. On the injector bench, I was able to go down a LOT lower than 1.5ms at 14V and you could see the injectors were flowing fine, although more and more linearity error came in. But nonetheless, they did not began to act up or anything. So from what I have seen on the bench, and from what I see in the data sheet, the 0.7ms either refers to absolute time, or it refers to a minimum time until the injectors are still linear. But TEMIN is something completely different, as said before. So setting TEMIN to that value makes no sense whatsoever, as the injector will still be perfectly fine delivering a measurable amount of fuel repeatedly at 0.5ms and below TE. And if correction is needed it can be corrected via FKKVS. As I said before, TEMIN for me is the minimum effective injection time where the amount of fuel injected is still deterministic. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 11, 2012, 01:09:19 PM So a reasonable start would be to set TEMIN to ((min actual injector on time according to inj spec) minus (the shortest TVUB))?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 01:15:25 PM I would say injector specs are not the be-all end-all.
Especially on custom modified injectors. I think on EV14's you can quite safely set TEMIN to 0 with no ill effects, as injector cutoff will be reached even on 1000cc injectors before this becomes a problem. Make no mistake, I am not saying this is the right thing to do. I just think TEMIN is irrelevant on smaller EV14 injectors on these cars, as the value is small enough to not really cause a problem. The only right way to find the value though is to observe the injectors on a bench and do a series of tests. And of course this value will also depend on the rail pressure... Truth be told, I am not sure what the "minimum pulsewidth" value specifies on the injector spec and whether it includes the offset or not. But I know from personal testing on a bench, that the 0.7ms can not be the minimum effective injection time value for the 550cc injectors... as they are deterministic far below that. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 11, 2012, 01:57:39 PM with the car coolant temperature around 80-grad C, this is what the start-up looks like logged @ 10Hz. you can see very clearly that there are moments while the RPM's are low, that one could *functionally* attempt below .70ms. during regular idle 60# ev14's are circa 1.80ms with 850rpm idle. my car has TEMIN set to .28ms and TEMINVA to .00ms. so i agree, in general these don't matter much. but to say they don't matter is not correct. furthermore, for some huge injector guys, especially E85 setups, this *absolutely* must matter... thus we are very much still on topic here. my evidence here should prove prj's point though, fwiw regarding approaching functional lower bounds of "pulse-width utilized". i'm pretty sure this is why car stumbles upon start-up sometimes. once the tvub trims were close to idle LTFT zero, however, the repeated hard-start and stumbling basically went away.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 11, 2012, 02:10:59 PM with the car coolant temperature around 80-grad C, this is what the start-up looks like logged @ 10Hz. you can see very clearly that there are moments while the RPM's are low, that one could *functionally* attempt below .70ms. during regular idle 60# ev14's are circa 1.80ms with 850rpm idle. my car has TEMIN set to .28ms and TEMINVA to .00ms. so i agree, in general these don't matter much. but to say they don't matter is not correct. furthermore, for some huge injector guys, especially E85 setups, this *absolutely* must matter... thus we are very much still on topic here. my evidence here should prove prj's point though, fwiw regarding approaching functional lower bounds of "pulse-width utilized". i'm pretty sure this is why car stumbles upon start-up sometimes. once the tvub trims were close to idle LTFT zero, however, the repeated hard-start and stumbling basically went away. Why idle that high? ;)Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 02:12:33 PM Why idle that high? ;) What does it have to do with anything? He can idle at 2000 rpm if he wants to, it's not going to change anything about the injector calibration. Also, idling higher requires lower pulsewidth. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 11, 2012, 02:15:02 PM What does it have to do with anything? Nothing I was just asking, wondered if you gonna jump on it -- Nah just kidding, my jokes are never good ;DHere is the same for me at idle after startup and coolant being at around 80degC as well, and starting to drive at the end of it. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: berTTos on December 11, 2012, 02:24:13 PM Really, well I think someone is misunderstanding the FR, and is about ready to have a cat fight over it. I am not going to bother to get drawn into such crap. Plain and simple. Yeah sorry, people are opinionated bastards. If I don't like the way someone is talking to me, I am not going to give them anything. You should know me better by now than to post crap which amounts to "you don't want to share because you don't know anything". I think I've contributed plenty to this resource to show otherwise. i meant no offense. i genuinely would like pw curve data for the EVs at 4 bar (specifically the Ford Racing version). i don't know how the Ford Racing injector datasheet made it's way into this discussion but i never refered to it. it is for a Ford GT or GT500 application at 39.15psi and those values are not valid for any other application. also - i believe the pw curve of the Ford Racing EVs varies from the Bosch Motorsports version at any fuel pressure so the two cannot be referred to as the same injector. it has been my experience that the Ford EVs low slope (at 4 bar) output is not proportional to the effective pulsewidth below 1.5ms. i am sure the Bosch Motorsports injectors are different. i am very sure that drilled injectors are very different. my reference to the FR is to page 1,397. TEMIN reference starting value = 1ms why the oem calibration is 0.5 (and not zero) - i have no idea. 0.7 TEMIN keeps the pw 1.5 or above for the Ford injectors. it always works at all temperatures, at idle and at all throttle inputs. apologies if i came across the wrong way. i have found many of your posts very useful and am glad you contribute. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 11, 2012, 02:49:52 PM i meant no offense. i genuinely would like pw curve data for the EVs at 4 bar (specifically the Ford Racing version). I have tuned both injectors, I have dead time data for them.I never needed to do anything with the PW curve, because in my application they were linear down to 0.5ms TE and that was good enough for me. I did not tune this on ME7. Quote i don't know how the Ford Racing injector datasheet made it's way into this discussion but i never refered to it. it is for a Ford GT or GT500 application at 39.15psi and those values are not valid for any other application. also - i believe the pw curve of the Ford Racing EVs varies from the Bosch Motorsports version at any fuel pressure so the two cannot be referred to as the same injector. Those 550cc/500cc injectors - there are three types of them with the same part number. Ford Motorsport, Bosch and Bosch Industrial.Bosch and Bosch industrial flow 500cc. The Ford motorsport flow 550cc. The Bosch code for all of them is exactly the same. TVUB for both types of injectors is pretty much the same too. Quote 0.7 TEMIN keeps the pw 1.5 or above for the Ford injectors. it always works at all temperatures, at idle and at all throttle inputs. And this is way too high. You will be fine even with 0.3ms TEMIN.Quote my reference to the FR is to page 1,397. TEMIN reference starting value = 1ms This is nothing to do with the real world. Note, this is an "init" value or default value. There is a difference between a recommended value in the application hints and between the default/init value.The init value simply means that this is what is set to when Bosch compiles the project and outputs a binary, nothing more, nothing less. Drawing any conclusions from it is incorrect. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 12, 2012, 05:45:16 PM 0.7 ms on datasheet is without dead time corrections, of course, so is temin.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on December 13, 2012, 09:57:02 AM TVUB for both types of injectors is pretty much the same too. So which numbers are right to that map? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on December 14, 2012, 02:28:38 AM So which numbers are right to that map? Which fuel pressure is right?::) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on December 14, 2012, 03:46:01 AM Which fuel pressure is right? ::) Sorry. I am using stock 4bar fpr. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 14, 2012, 08:51:09 AM you have to take value and multiply by fuel pressure factor, listed on the sheet.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on December 14, 2012, 09:33:58 AM you have to take value and multiply by fuel pressure factor, listed on the sheet. For some odd reason those values wont work. If i use those i get idle fuel trim -18% to -15%. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 14, 2012, 10:19:58 AM For some odd reason those values wont work. Did you try the reference TVUB from nehalem?If i use those i get idle fuel trim -18% to -15%. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on December 14, 2012, 12:44:49 PM Did you try the reference TVUB from nehalem? You mean this? Sup players! Nehalem back again with your rock-star EV14 injector update. No doubt, Santa arrived early this year! Lol, anyways. For the standard injectors, here's the deal. EV14 52# @ 3-bar / 60# @ 4-bar. Run the following: KRKTE: 0.05495 TVUB: 2.5203 1.2695 1.0081 0.8881 0.7654 I have tried this one also. Little better but still very rich at idle. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 14, 2012, 12:58:59 PM Not a fan of that TVUB unfortunately... he shouldn't recommend the same TVUB for both 3 bar and 4 bar.
Here are my starting points: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg18405#msg18405 Again, these are starting points. There is no reason to calculate a theoretical value then refuse to change it.. Also reread the whole thread regarding FKKVS as well :( Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on December 14, 2012, 01:04:57 PM I am running with the following at the moment with stock 4bar FPR:
TVUB 3.6991 1.4989 1.0988 0.8001 0.6187 KRKTE 0.05495 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 17, 2012, 08:45:47 AM Not a fan of that TVUB unfortunately... he shouldn't recommend the same TVUB for both 3 bar and 4 bar. Here are my starting points: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg18405#msg18405 Again, these are starting points. There is no reason to calculate a theoretical value then refuse to change it.. Also reread the whole thread regarding FKKVS as well :( You, simialar to KRKTE, TVUB changes with rail pressure as well. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: em.Euro.R18 on December 18, 2012, 10:41:46 AM I've been attempting to dial in my TVUB and KRKTE aswell. 750cc@3bar EV14's, V8 s4 maf, 80mm hemi throttle body GTI
TVUB acquired from Five0motorsports with a calculated KRKTE of .04362 8 2.133 10 1.267 12 .933 14 .667 15 .573 STFT started out at 0% LTFT jumped to 18%. So I adjusted accordingly by multiplying my correction factor being .18 x KRKTE = amount I need to add to KRKTE. I rinsed and repeated with no end in sight. So back to the drawing board I reviewed some of the logged data... I had seen a lot of the lean condition had to do with idle so based off my idle voltage I used the deadtime value and made some conservative adjustments. I didn't want to over compensate so I took a deadtime value of .667 x .1 = ~ the amount I would need to remove from the whole curve (to ensure I would still have the curve provided). Once I flashed the adjusted TVUB idle started to richen until idle fuel seemed to be correct. THen I was still getting A LTFT of 18% which I kept adjusting and each time I would take a long drive to test it out LTFT's would still call for 15% finally a value of KRKTE of .053 and my idle fuel is bouncing from 20 to -15% at times (usually about 20-30 seconds before it starts to bounce) The reason why I don't believe that LTFT is correct is because I'm getting a fueling pull of 20%mid - full throttle before boost. I have my multiplyers set to 1.0001. Let me know what you guys think... I thought KRKTE was supposed to be a calculated value not to be messed with assuming your rail pressure is accurate in the calc. I'm compensating for like 35%here somethings off the injector definitely should flow more then a 550cc. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 18, 2012, 10:52:09 AM Did you scale your MAF? If you didn't, your g/sec is way off.
Do you have a calibration sheet for your MAF? If not, you are guessing anyway, so deviating from the theoretical KRKTE is no different from deviating from the theoretical TVUB or KFKHFM, or MLHFM. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 18, 2012, 11:51:16 AM my tvub is
7 10 12 14 17 4.04051 1.86690 1.35217 1.02680 0.60808 Take it with a grain of salt since I also have non-standard maf which I massaged to work well on my set up. KRKTE 0.051770 for 1000cc @ 3bar Ev14 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: em.Euro.R18 on December 18, 2012, 01:04:41 PM Did you scale your MAF? If you didn't, your g/sec is way off. Do you have a calibration sheet for your MAF? If not, you are guessing anyway, so deviating from the theoretical KRKTE is no different from deviating from the theoretical TVUB or KFKHFM, or MLHFM. MAF has been scaled using the profile for my maf that tapp provided. Or should I attempt to scale it myself? He has various maf profiles scaled, with the correct offset. I set the multiplier for flowmeter correction to 1.0001 so that I may calibrate it in the future once I had idle together. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: em.Euro.R18 on December 18, 2012, 01:08:40 PM my tvub is 7 10 12 14 17 4.04051 1.86690 1.35217 1.02680 0.60808 Take it with a grain of salt since I also have non-standard maf which I massaged to work well on my set up. KRKTE 0.051770 for 1000cc @ 3bar Ev14 KRKTE of .051 for 1000cc? holy hell why are these calculated KRKTE's so off. I could understand a variance here or there but I havn't talked to one who has stuck with their calculated KRKTE. Did you modify your TVUB based on voltage? Using loads such as highbeams and whatnot. Seems like a crazy BVC curve. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on December 19, 2012, 07:48:00 AM KRKTE of .051 for 1000cc? holy hell why are these calculated KRKTE's so off. I could understand a variance here or there but I havn't talked to one who has stuck with their calculated KRKTE. Did you modify your TVUB based on voltage? Using loads such as highbeams and whatnot. Seems like a crazy BVC curve. To calculate ballpark of KRKTE you just take your stock injector KRTKE, multiply it by how many times the new injectors are larger than stock ones, stick in the value and street tune from there. As to TVUB... it is street tuned as well. Since the manufacturer data is for 52# injector, it is granted that higher flowing modified Ev14 will have different TVUB due to changed flow. After doing numerous high load pulls to dial KRKTE in (during high injector pulse width > 10ms TVUB corrections are pretty small so you can almost ignore them if they are inaccurate), I concentrated on idle/low load. If I see high corrections at idle with KRKTE already dialed in, it is TVUB that's inaccurate. You correct TVUB until the idle gets in checks and the mid load should also be pretty close to zero. This was covered in several large posts on this site. NEVER EVER trust anybody's KRTKE/TVUB as it will be different for every car you flash it to even with identical hardware... That's the nature of beast. The only thing that needs to be accurate is MAF translation curve or at least be the right one for your maf element so that scaling is right. Even if the housing diameter is off, it can be corrected with KRKTE (and that's why KRKTE is all over the place for most people). Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on December 19, 2012, 11:19:33 AM The math for theoretical KRKTE is here
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,320.msg6774.html#msg6774 If you have a 2.7t, its roughly 34.125/(injector flow in cc/min) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on December 25, 2012, 08:34:30 AM Quick question.
Say one were tuning for ev14 550cc injectors@5bar. With a little math I determined flow rate to be 686.86cc/min. That would put my KRKTE@.0476 correct? KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant ) Thanks a lot guys. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 25, 2012, 03:05:49 PM no. super interesting / related here: http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
rate@5-bar = (rate@3-bar in lbs/hr)*([unit conversion])*sqrt(5/3) rate@5-bar = 52*10.5*sqrt(5/3) rate@5-bar = 705 cc/min for estimating KRKTE Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on December 25, 2012, 04:40:20 PM Hmm. With the values I used my LTFT's were within 1 percent. I thought that was DAMN good considering. Thanks again, really appreciate the help.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 25, 2012, 07:25:23 PM What were the KRKTE / TVUB values used with 5-bar then?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on December 25, 2012, 07:46:21 PM TVUB (7, 10, 12, 14, 18V)
2.000 1.011 0.800 0.699 0.611 KRKE .04762 TEMIN .2800 What say you? Definitely open to criticism, nearly all ev14 info I've read here has had something to do with you, so I bow to the experts. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 25, 2012, 07:50:49 PM It looks like a good start. Do you find that your idle is lean? That would be my guess based on the numbers.
I am def not an expert, but mildly skilled on this subject. I'm working on putting the bigger pieces together, but I appreciate the hat/tip; good to see other people accelerating their process by using my experience / documentation. Makes me want to contribute more, tbh. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on December 25, 2012, 08:16:10 PM A little on the lean side at idle, everywhere else is good. Suggestions? I appreciate the input, The main thing is it's safe to drive home. Will post my results once I get some real logging done. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on December 25, 2012, 08:25:28 PM Here's what I'd try:
2.0002 1.0081 0.8001 0.7041 0.6081 Call that our base-case m-box default. With 4-bar I currently run 26% over that, so moving to 5-bar I'd say you'd theoretically start with 1.40 x base. Therefore go head and try this: 2.800 1.411 1.120 0.986 0.851 Additionally. Try TEMIN to .25ms, using the calculation I used before. Try those and see how that looks. I'm anxious to see if you lower your misfire count. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on December 27, 2012, 03:41:00 PM Thank you sir! I will certainly post results.
(glad I paid attention in math) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AARDQ on December 28, 2012, 04:56:40 PM To add to the data set, w/ these injectors (Ford Motorsports, not modified) and 4-bar, my KRKTE is 0.0613 and TVUB is 2.2280 1.4920 1.0520 0.7720 0.5080
Idle trim is -1% and partial is -4%. FKKV=1s. Cold start improved to avoid the brief bucking by increasing KFFWL_0_A / KFFWL_1_A 10%-12% in the -30* to +9.5* range. I used the O-rings from the original injectors and clips. The O-rings *just* fit all the way in the bores. No vacuum/boost leaks. These things are amazing. I catch myself looking at the tach sometimes to make sure the engine is still running, it's so smooth. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: em.Euro.R18 on January 29, 2013, 04:31:27 PM Just a quick question as far as TVUB calibration goes. What are your thoughts as far as using FKKVS to correct variances in injector latency rather than playing with the manufacturers BVC values. Seems like my ev14 750cc's run alot smoother at manufacturers spec rather than tuning TVUB using STFT's. I can get it to target lambda at idle but part throttle is horrible when corrections are made to TVUB and eventually idle will hunt after sitting a bit. I've heard this is the choice map for most reputable tuners as far as dialing in Injectors for idle/low load situations.
I myself haven't attempted to populate this map. I would start by setting FKKVS, KFLF and similar multipliers to 1.0001. Use o2 corrections with fuel trims disabled to make the corrections to FKKVS. Let me know what you guys think. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on March 22, 2013, 03:43:57 PM Fellow NefMoto'ers. I've recently learned that the "550cc" ev14's we all talk about are actually around 590cc @ 4-bar, our standard FPR setting.
Here are the settings I use nowadays on my K04 B5 S4: KRKTE: 0.05850 TVUB: 1.6482 1.1121 0.9415 0.8188 0.5841 Enjoy! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: rnagy86 on March 23, 2013, 04:01:08 AM Hey,
It's a good idea to post more values. So here are mine with stock 4-bar FPR, K04'd S4: KRKTE: 0.05583 TVUB: 3.6991 1.4989 1.0988 0.8001 0.6187 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on March 23, 2013, 02:11:41 PM EV14 benched at 750cc@3bar, but running 4bar FPR:
KRKTE: .04840 TVUB: 3.8645 1.6775 1.2268 0.9254 0.7788 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Mantis on April 15, 2013, 02:16:36 PM EV14 750cc 4bar
KRTE: 0.04107 TVUB 4.1899, 1.5789, 1.2002, 0.8908, 0.5094 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: erroob0977 on April 21, 2013, 10:52:09 PM Bosch EV14 ~630cc at 4 bar (550cc at 3 bar)
KRKTE: 0.05745 TVUB: 3.364, 1.572, 1.128, 0.854, 0.568 FKKVS set to 1 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: chokee on July 04, 2013, 11:15:41 PM First post:
Completed a PJK04 swap on my 2002 S4 at the beginning of June. stock FPR, 85mm hitachi MAF with open filter. Noticed some inconsistencies with the 630cc dekas I had in such as not perfect idle and 10% variance of LTFT between banks. So I swapped in a set of 550cc EV14's and began a brand new tune for the car. KRKTE - 0.05794 (running it just slightly rich because I don't have a wideband in the car yet) LTFT's are sitting around 0.93 TVUB - 2.582 1.480 1.093 0.795 0.592 FKKVS - set to all 1's rescaled KFMIRL and KFMIOP using ME7 Tuning Wizard KFKHFM - stock M-box values Once warmed up this car is running wonderfully. Idle is stock and I had some accel/decel transition slight bucking with the dekas which is now gone. It also seems smoother and dare I say faster! I have 3 questions: Should I set KFKHFM to all 1's like I did with FKKVS or should I leave them as the stock M-box values? My car now bucks a little bit during medium load after a cold start which has never happened before. I am going to experiment with KFFWL_0_A and KFFWL_1_A as nehalem mentioned in order to straighten this out. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on why this would happen now with the EV14's when it never happened with stock injectors or the siemens dekas? Can someone explain how the "factoring" works with the values in the KFFWL (warmup enrichment) tables? Thanks in advance. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 06, 2013, 06:50:44 PM Just an FIY, Boschdealer.com has several flow sheets for 550, 750, 1000cc Ev14 and some other injectors here:
http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/ if you're not sure what's what, browse their home page and look at injector in question with its spec page linked from product page. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 08, 2013, 05:54:40 AM Running ev14 550s, stock fpr, RS4 maf, and RS6 turbos (old VAST RS6 setup). Would I have to do anything different than the K04 people? I'd assume the greater flow of the RS6's would mean I wouldn't have to taper the boost at higher rpms? I suppose I can worry about that later.
Would I have to change anything from Tony's Base Stage 3 besides the MLHFM, KRKTE, and TVUB? Maybe FKKVS, KFFWL_0_A, and KFFWL_1_A? I think I'm gonna start with chokee's values. They seem on point to me? Would I even need to scale the maf, or is the 83mm vs 85mm negligible? Would just multipling the table by a ratio 83:85 be a bad idea? I'm a noob. Don't hurt me :( Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 09, 2013, 10:20:40 AM It wouldn't be 85:83 ratio, you have to use circle area forumla or Pi*r^2.... Hence: Pi*((85/2)^2) / Pi*((83/2)^2)
Anyway you will have to make adjustments regardless but the fueling system can adjust by a lot on the fly. You will be able to start the car even if you are off by more than 10% on fueling. Using block 032 in vag-com or variables: rkat_w AdapAddPerTimeB1 rkat2_w AdapAddPerTimeB2 fra_w AdapMulLowRangeB1 fra2_w AdapMulLowRangeB2 frau_w AdapMulMidRangeB1 frau2_w AdapMulMidRangeB2 frao_w AdapMulHighRangeB1 frao2_w AdapMulHighRangeB2 These represent idle, low range, mid range and high range of fueling adjustments. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 10, 2013, 04:43:22 AM Thanks. I have another question about FPRs. Why do people run different ones? Is it only to scale the flow of the injectors? Why would you run a 3bar FPR or a 5bar FPR over the stock FPR?
And the 5120 hack. Who actually needs to read over 2.5 bar? Am I missing something here? Sorry for jacking the thread with stupid questions :( I'm sure I'll be back with more questions after I play around some. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 10, 2013, 09:05:20 AM Thanks. I have another question about FPRs. Why do people run different ones? Is it only to scale the flow of the injectors? Why would you run a 3bar FPR or a 5bar FPR over the stock FPR? And the 5120 hack. Who actually needs to read over 2.5 bar? Am I missing something here? Sorry for jacking the thread with stupid questions :( I'm sure I'll be back with more questions after I play around some. 2.5 bar on the map is 1.5 bar manifold+1 bar atmospheric. 1.5bar=21psi if you want a working PID. As for FPR, increasing pressure gives you more headroom. 550cc injectors at 3 bar flow 710cc at 5bar. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 10, 2013, 09:09:04 AM 2.5 bar on the map is 1.5 bar manifold+1 bar atmospheric. 1.5bar=21psi if you want a working PID. Oh yeah :PAs for FPR, increasing pressure gives you more headroom. 550cc injectors at 3 bar flow 710cc at 5bar. But do you NEED that headroom? EDIT: TEMIN is the minimun injection on time and really only needs changed with LARGE injectors and apparently ev14's are weird and like a higher TEMIN value. Is this correct? There seems to be a large variance in what TEMIN values people are running? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 10, 2013, 09:20:00 AM Do not increase TEMIN. Those that do have no understanding of how fueling works. As for needing the headroom, 550s are good for stage3, but if you log and get 85+% IDC, increasing fuel pressure will keep things safe.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 10, 2013, 09:23:37 AM Do not increase TEMIN. Those that do have no understanding of how fueling works. As for needing the headroom, 550s are good for stage3, but if you log and get 85+% IDC, increasing fuel pressure will keep things safe. Thanks, (+karma). Is there a RS4 bin floating around I can use? EDIT: Last time I was experimenting (before I had my wideband setup) I had an issue with the idle surging 30 or so rpm every few seconds. Ideas? EDIT2: Whats with all the different TVUB values in here? People dont have properly scaled MAFs? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 10, 2013, 11:15:31 AM You need to consider your fuel pump when choosing your FPR pressure as well. Fuel pump output drops dramatically as pressure increases. With 5 bar fpr and 2bar of pressure (29psi), the pump must pump at 7bar, 101.5psi which is usually beyond most pumps ability to pump, let alone pump in volume usable for the boost level.
This is why some make a choice to run 3bar fpr which is still very streetable and car idles well provided you have good injectors and tuned for them well. Difference between 3bar and 5bar is 30psi, which might mean a difference between a need to expensive fuel cell setup vs potent in-tank pump. Here is a graph to illustrate this: (http://gallery3.034motorsport.com/var/albums/Product_Images/Fuel_Pump_Flows.png?m=1302070735) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 10, 2013, 11:53:51 AM Is there a RS4 bin floating around I can use? May not be as useful as you think (depending on what you intend to use it for) http://nyet.org/cars/files/stock/part-numbers.txt http://nyet.org/cars/files/stock/ Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jibberjive on July 10, 2013, 12:14:31 PM Just as a note on the fuel pump flow graph, part of the reason why the Walbro falls off so rapidly around 90psi is because of a built-in relief valve that is designed to open at that pressure. They can and do (at the cost of longevity?) hold better flow at pressures above that when people mod those relief valves. Of course, that is operating the pump outside of it's designed constraints, but people have been doing it successfully for years. Just an aside on that.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 10, 2013, 12:16:12 PM Thanks. I just wanted the maf table, but I found it posted on the forums somewhere. Still want to look at it for comparison.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: pablo53 on July 10, 2013, 02:26:13 PM Vendor provided latency tables for EV14 627cc and 980cc:
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 17, 2013, 10:47:46 AM Why is there such a huge difference in everyone's TVUB values?
Nehalem, your values on page 11 are a lot different than the values on page 6? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on July 17, 2013, 11:36:20 AM Here is the spec sheet for the 550's that everyone uses: FNPW_OFFCOMP multiplier for 60,03 psid is wrong as told in many topics. I wonder what else is wrong in that sheet? I am using "prj" 's values and those seems to be very close if i look VCDS group 032 values. But i'm having huge lambda corrections during acceleration and deceleration. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on July 17, 2013, 09:50:14 PM the entire reason for this thread is that 550cc spec sheet is wildly incorrect.
it'd be great if someone could get a proper flow bench assessment of those numbers. that would solve everything if the numbers were correct for the 550's. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 17, 2013, 10:49:15 PM Getting accurate (comparable) figures assumes everyone has correct scaling. Assuming anything around here is dangerous.
TVUB on the other hand should be fairly close (at least in the 14v range that they operate at most of the time) with differences accounted for by pressure differences from one person to the next. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: prj on July 18, 2013, 12:32:00 AM FNPW_OFFCOMP multiplier for 60,03 psid is wrong as told in many topics. I wonder what else is wrong in that sheet? I am using "prj" 's values and those seems to be very close if i look VCDS group 032 values. But i'm having huge lambda corrections during acceleration and deceleration. You must edit KFBAKL and KFVAKL for these injectors. Try multiplying both by 1.5 as a start, and then fine tune it. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 18, 2013, 06:13:21 AM There are revised sheets from the same source for different ev14 injector which I posted page or two ago.
The TVUB I experimentally arrived at by self-tuning, was only about 0.05ms off from sheet posted there for my 1000cc ev14 injectors so I am fairly certain that the new flow sheets are accurate. As you know, or not, same exact injector but drilled out to flow different volumes changes the TVUB dramatically. You can't use 550cc ev14 TVUB for 1000cc ev14 event though they are the same injector with different spout and orifice. 1000cc will take much longer to open up to its nominal flow. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 18, 2013, 06:35:46 AM Here (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/)
Are the TVUB voltages 7, 10, 12, 14, 18? Not 8, 10, 12, 14, 16? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 18, 2013, 10:35:19 AM Here? http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/ Are the TVUB voltages 7, 10, 12, 14, 18? Not 8, 10, 12, 14, 16? Yes, redefine your Volt axis in TVUB table if you want to accurately input data or leave it alone and do some Curve Finder or Excel interpolation. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 18, 2013, 10:39:53 AM Anyone have any luck finding a spec sheet for the 750cc@3bar injectors? (im running them at 4bar)
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 18, 2013, 10:40:58 AM Anyone have any luck finding a spec sheet for the 750cc@3bar injectors? (im running them at 4bar) Isn't this it?http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/750cc.pdf Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 18, 2013, 10:45:59 AM yes, thanks, thats where i was JUST looking lol
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: phila_dot on July 18, 2013, 11:36:51 AM Getting accurate (comparable) figures assumes everyone has correct scaling. Assuming anything around here is dangerous. TVUB on the other hand should be fairly close (at least in the 14v range that they operate at most of the time) with differences accounted for by pressure differences from one person to the next. TVUB can easily vary greatly between calibrations depending on how it was tuned. The only constant there should be the difference between cells. Yes, redefine your Volt axis in TVUB table if you want to accurately input data or leave it alone and do some Curve Finder or Excel interpolation. Adjusting the axis could have inconsistant results as the offset is not linear, but the map lookup is. Isn't this it? http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/750cc.pdf I could be wrong, but I don't think that cal sheet is for the modified EV14's that everyone is running. IIRC, those are a completely different part number. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 19, 2013, 09:09:05 AM I could be wrong, but I don't think that cal sheet is for the modified EV14's that everyone is running. IIRC, those are a completely different part number. It is for 0280158117 which is what everyone is running. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 19, 2013, 12:07:20 PM Calibration sheet supplied with my ford racing injectors (bearing the 117 suffix)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/ay1w8j.jpg) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 19, 2013, 12:20:35 PM Calibration sheet supplied with my ford racing injectors (bearing the 117 suffix) (http://i40.tinypic.com/ay1w8j.jpg) That's an old one with obvious mistakes on it, as discussed in prior posts. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 19, 2013, 12:25:47 PM I understand, but I thought it relevant.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: phila_dot on July 19, 2013, 12:37:40 PM It is for 0280158117 which is what everyone is running. Ok, all modified injectors are not created equally either way. That's an old one with obvious mistakes on it, as discussed in prior posts. That cal sheet is from Ford Racing... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on July 19, 2013, 12:41:47 PM Ok, all modified injectors are not created equally either way. That cal sheet is from Ford Racing... That's the sheet that came with my injectors. I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying it's accurate, but I haven't seen it posted anywhere, so I'm just adding to the dataset. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 19, 2013, 12:44:46 PM And :)?
The new link I provided is the same exact site the sheet you posted was pulled out, a long time ago (by me) and posted in this thread. If you look at the values, I just spot checked 43.5psi (3bar), then they match to within 0.01ms... Except that the new one is more convenient since the values are already provided for different pressures and more importantly, the old sheet has multiplier values that don't make sense. Let's also don't forget that they finally posted TVUB for different flow ev14s, something you were on your own to date. Sure injectors are not all equal but if you take the same base part, and modify to the same final flow, chances are that two different companies doing that will get an injector with very similar TVUB. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 19, 2013, 12:58:34 PM My only problem with those new sheets is that they don't go down to 7v.. and i hate guessing :)
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on July 19, 2013, 01:02:01 PM My only problem with those new sheets is that they don't go down to 7v.. and i hate guessing :) ;D I know. It is nice to know that you can still activate the injector long after the ECU already turned off. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on July 19, 2013, 02:07:22 PM You must edit KFBAKL and KFVAKL for these injectors. Try multiplying both by 1.5 as a start, and then fine tune it. I try to tune those injectors to Audi A4 1.8t quattro -01. Ecu is 4B0906018CG-0261207215-360306. Stock values from KFBAKL are around 1,5 at 90C and 3000rpm, KFVAKL in same spot 0,92. If i have read my logs right those stock values are too high. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on July 22, 2013, 12:32:04 PM It is for 0280158117 which is what everyone is running. I have updated my first post in this thread to try to gather all the info we have into a single post.. let me know if you guys see stuff that is blatantly wrong. http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=320.msg2170#msg2170 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on September 27, 2013, 06:52:38 AM Assume this (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg (http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg)) to be accurate and we already know a 4-bar pressure regulator is 58.02 psi. Therefore FNPW_OFFCOMP has a theoretical value of: 1.1852. Using the same decimal accuracy as the calibration sheet: 1.1852 = 1.2179+(58.02-54.96)*(1.1638-1.2179)/(60.03-54.96) In MATLAB I entered the FNPW_OFFSET values and fit a shape-preserving spline. You can see the attached graph below to view the curve-fit. Interpolated output from the curve below is naturally multiplied by 1.1852. Volts MS 7.04 3.865 10.07 1.678 12.04 1.227 14.08 0.926 17.88 0.779 Now for KRKTE, the theoretical value is pretty simple to calculate. KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant ) KRKTE = 50.2624 * 0.4452 / ( 615 * .684) = .0532 These are the values I'm going to start my K04 tuning with using the rinse/repeat process after I get a wideband installed (based on the stock m-box). Could somebody please verify what I've done above? Thanks guys. hi ! i want replace my 3bar fuel regolator pressure on my tt 225 with one 4bar, but i don't understand how modify TVUB . can you help me? can you explain to me again? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on September 27, 2013, 07:57:03 AM hi ! i want replace my 3bar fuel regolator pressure on my tt 225 with one 4bar, but i don't understand how modify TVUB . can you help me? can you explain to me again? The TVUB values raise as the fuel rail pressure goes up since the injector must work against more force to open the orifice. If you have a flow sheet for the injector, the outright values for TVUB might be given in there or a multiplier value that you need to use for basic (usually 3bar) TVUB to obtain new TVUB for a given pressure you're intereseted in. What injectors do you have, stock ones? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on September 27, 2013, 08:11:22 AM The TVUB values raise as the fuel rail pressure goes up since the injector must work against more force to open the orifice. If you have a flow sheet for the injector, the outright values for TVUB might be given in there or a multiplier value that you need to use for basic (usually 3bar) TVUB to obtain new TVUB for a given pressure you're intereseted in. What injectors do you have, stock ones? yes stock ones 386cc my tvub is 7,9552 9,9968 11,9680 14,0096 1,7408 1,7408 1,1392 0,8096 0,5984 0,4416 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on September 30, 2013, 03:18:08 AM to adjust TVUB, is sufficient to divide TVUB original values by 1.1852 (value interpolated from http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg )?
i have original injectors and I would put a fuel pressure regulator to 4bar ( the original one is 3bar ) thanks Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on September 30, 2013, 06:02:38 AM to adjust TVUB, is sufficient to divide TVUB original values by 1.1852 (value interpolated from http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg )? i have original injectors and I would put a fuel pressure regulator to 4bar ( the original one is 3bar ) thanks Multiply if anything. The more pressure, the longer the injector opens since it has to work against more pressure. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on September 30, 2013, 08:29:38 AM probably tvub is fnpw_offset ( voltage offset ) / FNPW_OFFCOMP ( multiplier )
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on October 02, 2013, 12:47:23 AM Multiply if anything. The more pressure, the longer the injector opens since it has to work against more pressure. sorry for the spam probably i must multiply for my offset 1.1852 :) so v 3bar 4bar 7,9552 1,7408 2,06319616 9,9968 1,1392 1,35017984 11,968 0,8096 0,95953792 14,0096 0,5984 0,70922368 15,9808 0,4416 0,52338432 but what mean Yes - That math looks correct. However, after a while of adjusting LTFT's, I ended up with: 3.12 1.35 0.99 0.75 0.63 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on October 02, 2013, 06:28:26 AM Forgot to mention that this particular sheet is probably all off, use this one for 52lb:
http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/550cc.pdf Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: s5fourdoor on October 02, 2013, 11:36:15 AM Forgot to mention that this particular sheet is probably all off, use this one for 52lb: http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/550cc.pdf I've been using the 60 psi values multiplied by 1.02 across the board, changed the axis to reflect [8,10,12,14,16]. The two warmup maps are multiplier by 1.10. Idle torque multiplied 1.25 for both clutch-in & clutch-out maps. No real misfires for me anymore. Cold start still needs refinement. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on October 03, 2013, 02:13:24 AM I've been using the 60 psi values multiplied by 1.02 across the board, changed the axis to reflect [8,10,12,14,16]. The two warmup maps are multiplier by 1.10. Idle torque multiplied 1.25 for both clutch-in & clutch-out maps. No real misfires for me anymore. Cold start still needs refinement. why 1.02? why you don't use fnpw_offcomp 1.1638 ? the multiplier that results from the calculations (1.1852) seems too high and I'm not sure it is correct. I found this pdf http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/injection_valves/injection_valves_en.pdf also the values of tuvb that would be out from http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg fnpw_offset seem too high. in my original tvub I can read for about 8v 1.7408 and not 2.184 for about 10v my value is 1.1392 and not 1.1435 and so on .. Am I taking as a reference the wrong document? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on October 03, 2013, 06:18:43 AM why 1.02? why you don't use fnpw_offcomp 1.1638 ? the multiplier that results from the calculations (1.1852) seems too high and I'm not sure it is correct. I found this pdf http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/injection_valves/injection_valves_en.pdf also the values of tuvb that would be out from http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg fnpw_offset seem too high. in my original tvub I can read for about 8v 1.7408 and not 2.184 for about 10v my value is 1.1392 and not 1.1435 and so on .. Am I taking as a reference the wrong document? Look at what I posted in my previous post. Stop using the sheet you're referencing (it is totally wrong). The new one, from the same site, works, and doesn't require you to do any crazy calculations. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on October 03, 2013, 08:12:25 AM Look at what I posted in my previous post. Stop using the sheet you're referencing (it is totally wrong). The new one, from the same site, works, and doesn't require you to do any crazy calculations. thank you very much for your help but I did not understand how to use this spreadsheet. my flow is equivalent to approximately 455cc (original flow is 386cc @ 3bar) your pdf talks with 550cc injectors Could I have solved the problem copying in tvub the first pdf line? thanks Daniele Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on October 03, 2013, 10:59:55 AM thank you very much for your help but I did not understand how to use this spreadsheet. my flow is equivalent to approximately 455cc (original flow is 386cc @ 3bar) your pdf talks with 550cc injectors Could I have solved the problem copying in tvub the first pdf line? thanks Daniele I had to go back to your original thread. I assumed you're asking about ev14 injector, you know, the ones this thread is about... You can only approximate the TVUB by intelligently looking at other injectors and their TVUB differences between different pressures. Once you figure out what multiplier to use, try it and see where it gets you. For example, Ev14 550cc / 52lb injectors when going from 43.5 (3bar) to ~58 (4bar) gain this much TVUB: 8V 2.7 ---> ~3.2 -- x1.185 10V 1.54 --> 1.61 -- x1.05 12V 1.12 --> 1.155 -- x1.03 14V 0.73 --> 0.75 -- x1.03 16V 0.523 --> 0.540 -- x1.03 If you look at other injectors, siemens for example, this will be different. You cannot accurately determine this, just approximate if you have data for different injectors. Getting data for similar tech injectors would work the best as the data would be the most relevant. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: dantt on October 04, 2013, 01:14:30 AM thank you very much for your support!
i can't find sheet for my injector yet. my injetor code probably is: OE Part #: 06A906031J Mfg Part #: 0280155892 here (http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2659.htm) i can find some information but nothing tvub data :( this injector has similar code http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280155868cs.jpg do you think i can use this data? thanks! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: 16g-95gsc on November 09, 2013, 09:10:12 AM I've been using the 60 psi values multiplied by 1.02 across the board, changed the axis to reflect [8,10,12,14,16]. The two warmup maps are multiplier by 1.10. Idle torque multiplied 1.25 for both clutch-in & clutch-out maps. No real misfires for me anymore. Cold start still needs refinement. I have read through this entire thread, and am looking for a consensus on starting values for standard EV14 550's (117 Suffix). So to summarize: Using the tech data posted on the first page for latency, and then extrapolating with a simple curve fit I arrive at the following values: KRKTE: 0.05495 Voltage mS 7.04 - 4.36 10.06 - 1.64 12.03 - 1.158 14.08 - 0.751 17.88 - 0.40 And you're saying that KFFWL_0_A and KFFWL_1_A can be increased 10% across the full map. Opinions on whether this summary/these values appear correct? I've had a slight hesitation ever since installing my 550's a while ago and felt it was time to return to my tune and really dial these guys in. The car has always driven just fine, but tends to have a slight hesitation during initial cold start, and sometimes very light cruise. I have returned the intake system to factory so that I can isolate the injectors as the sole variable from factory fuel settings. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: 16g-95gsc on November 10, 2013, 10:38:09 AM Those settings worked great. I wound up tweaking it just a tad, but trims are fairly well dialed in though. I did find that cold compensation needs to be reduced slightly, reads -13% at idle an d cruise. Once fully warmed it's back to normal. Otherwise it's great.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: 16g-95gsc on November 11, 2013, 06:23:45 AM Also to clarify, I meant that I left cold compensations stock, and yet they now still appear to require reduction. My original post mentioned increasing them 10% across the board, so I wanted to clarify that the need for reduction was seen without having made this increase. Taking a look at Berttos' posted BIN file it appears that he did the same reduction. Cold compensation is annoying as you only have a small window with which to get the data. Then you have to wait basically a full day to see if any change you made works.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: oldcarguy85 on January 20, 2014, 11:31:57 AM Hey all,
Some great info in this thread. I'm just curious why KFFWL_0_A and KFFWL_1_A need to be touched. Wouldn't warmup perform just as stock if KRKTE and TVUB were dialed in correctly? Am i missing something? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on January 28, 2014, 03:40:42 PM Can someone advise correct way to tune KFBAKL and KFVAKL?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on February 10, 2014, 10:53:18 PM Can someone advise correct way to tune KFBAKL and KFVAKL? KFBAKL gives acceleration enrichment,more the KFBAKL more is the enrichment KFVAKL gives deceleration enleanment, more the KFVAKL more is the enleanment Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hipeka on February 12, 2014, 02:01:09 PM KFBAKL gives acceleration enrichment,more the KFBAKL more is the enrichment KFVAKL gives deceleration enleanment, more the KFVAKL more is the enleanment Yes, thats also said in FR. But what are values that should be look at when adjust these and what are good reference values? Original injectors with original settings or something else? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on February 12, 2014, 10:40:23 PM Yes, thats also said in FR. But what are values that should be look at when adjust these and what are good reference values? Original injectors with original settings or something else? IMO, changing injector should not cause a change to trasnient compensation. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: phila_dot on February 13, 2014, 09:51:29 AM IMO, changing injector should not cause a change to trasnient compensation. You absolutely do need to change transient compensation with different injectors. The amount of fuel contributing to the wall film will be different with different spray patterns and angles. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ABCD on February 16, 2014, 07:51:55 PM You absolutely do need to change transient compensation with different injectors. The amount of fuel contributing to the wall film will be different with different spray patterns and angles. Ohhh, I am sorry >:(. I thought of only flow rate change which will be taken care by KRKTE. Changing spray pattern will surely change transient Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AudiSportB5S4 on March 04, 2014, 12:21:10 PM Correct.... BTW, I did what you suggested nyet and played with TVUB and the idle and cruise is considerably better now. Thanks again! Need to get my wideband in. Apologies for bringing back a potentially old question, but here Sascha is saying he uses KRKTE to do WOT tweaks, but a few posts up (#19) Tony is saying that is primarily used for part throttle conditions.. I'm asking because my buddy's tune is running a little lean part throttle, +5, and pretty rich at WOT. So I'm afraid that just pulling back a few percentage on KRKTE is going to really throw part throttle too lean. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on March 04, 2014, 12:27:40 PM KRKTE is used everywhere.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AudiSportB5S4 on March 04, 2014, 01:15:50 PM ^Yeah, I understand that because it's basically injector on time.. I didn't think that was a good way of moving your WOT fueling which is why I asked since that is so broad.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on March 04, 2014, 01:28:31 PM ^Yeah, I understand that because it's basically injector on time.. I didn't think that was a good way of moving your WOT fueling which is why I asked since that is so broad. Well, the point is that it is used as a starting point for closed loop, but ALWAYS used for open loop. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AudiSportB5S4 on March 04, 2014, 01:39:00 PM Gotcha, thanks Nye.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AudiSportB5S4 on March 24, 2014, 12:15:22 PM I ended up decreasing KRKTE a few percent which brought his AFR @ WOT to where we wanted it.. Now as expected his trims are pretty far off.. ~0, +14, ~0, +14. Thinking of massaging TVUB a bit from here, but want to do more reading.. Looking @ the sheet that was made and published here with the dynamic calc of tvub, seems when you crank out new TVUB numbers you're changing krkte again.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on March 24, 2014, 12:20:46 PM I feel as though noone pays attention. You do not change KRKTE in order to alter WOT fueling! Put it back to the way it was and tweak either KFKHFM or FKKVS (or KFLF) in order to bring actual AFR inline with requested!
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on March 25, 2014, 07:52:38 AM Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map.
Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. "M" box definition: Code: <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x11AB7" flags="0x0"> Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: userpike on March 25, 2014, 09:01:48 AM I don't understand why people won't just figure the math to solve for KRKTE then "set it and forget it" ( maybe people are intimidated by the HUGE equation, I dunno) and get on with the tuning. It's a constant value, I think everything that involves KRKTE will be way more "happy" this way.
If you got that down and are absolutely sure you have no vacuum/boost leaks, you can be confident in tuning with the fuel trims. In reading around it seems like people are adjusting krkte and tvub to try and get fueling right which is actually just compensating for the ori settings of the MAPs mentioned above in ddillengers post (also a few others) which is straight up backwards just about because those maps are set with the ori KRKTE constant! So after the new one is figured and set, all those maps should be set to the middle of the scale and adjusted up or down as necessary through logging. The problem with this is being able to identify which map needs to be changed for certain compensations. Now, you'll be asking yourself "why should I change FKKVS for this instance instead of KFKHFM, etc." The FR should have those answers. edit: The FR should give insight enough for you to come up with those answers. Plus there are smart people here that are willing to help most of the time and don't mind having discussions. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: AudiSportB5S4 on March 28, 2014, 08:11:54 AM I feel as though noone pays attention. You do not change KRKTE in order to alter WOT fueling! Put it back to the way it was and tweak either KFKHFM or FKKVS (or KFLF) in order to bring actual AFR inline with requested! Thanks for the info.. I do appreciate it. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jibberjive on March 29, 2014, 04:14:58 AM I agree, KRKTE doesn't need to constantly be adjusted, but it does need to be set correctly the first time with new injectors (and calculations aren't always right IMO; maybe the injectors don't flow exactly what was quoted; maybe the fuel pressure is a little less/more than your calculation, etc). I would rather set KRKTE correctly at the beginning than just calculate KRKTE, set it and forget it, and scale the entire KFKHFM map if I find out fueling is off. My opinion.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: cactusgreens4 on April 20, 2014, 07:08:56 PM I have a question regarding fuel trims on my car and I feel this would be a great place for it since I am running ev14 52lb injectors, if not I will post a new thread. Anyway, I recently changed my setup slightly and the change was that I went from an rs4 fuel pump to a stock s4 fuel pump and now am having a system too lean issue. I was wondering if the reduced flow of this pump had caused my injectors, even though still using the stock fuel pressure regulator, to flow less fuel than I had KRKTE set for and thus the reason its now running lean. Is that possible? Because the rs4 pump FLOWS more at the same rail pressure (FPR) is the only reason I can think this would happen.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: chokee on April 22, 2014, 05:55:46 AM Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map. Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. "M" box definition: Code: <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x11AB7" flags="0x0"> You sir just solved the final issue I had with my tune. For the first 3-5 minutes of cold operation under mild throttle I would see >1 lambda and it made the car drive like crap. This problem would dissappear completely after a few minutes. I had been all over the place modifying warmup maps trying to fix this. I started to think I had a sticky valve somewhere when the engine was cold introducing a minor vacuum leak. I played around with these maps you mentioned last night and this morning lambda under mild throttle with cold engine was sitting right at 1 instead of creeping above 1. The car drove much better. Thanks. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: userpike on April 22, 2014, 01:37:10 PM I have a question regarding fuel trims on my car and I feel this would be a great place for it since I am running ev14 52lb injectors, if not I will post a new thread. Anyway, I recently changed my setup slightly and the change was that I went from an rs4 fuel pump to a stock s4 fuel pump and now am having a system too lean issue. I was wondering if the reduced flow of this pump had caused my injectors, even though still using the stock fuel pressure regulator, to flow less fuel than I had KRKTE set for and thus the reason its now running lean. Is that possible? Because the rs4 pump FLOWS more at the same rail pressure (FPR) is the only reason I can think this would happen. you should expect to see lean conditions where the s4 pump cannot perform as well as the RS4pump regardless of your krkte value. Why did you downgrade anyway? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on April 23, 2014, 01:00:26 PM You sir just solved the final issue I had with my tune. For the first 3-5 minutes of cold operation under mild throttle I would see >1 lambda and it made the car drive like crap. This problem would dissappear completely after a few minutes. I had been all over the place modifying warmup maps trying to fix this. I started to think I had a sticky valve somewhere when the engine was cold introducing a minor vacuum leak. I played around with these maps you mentioned last night and this morning lambda under mild throttle with cold engine was sitting right at 1 instead of creeping above 1. The car drove much better. Thanks. Glad to be of help, this issue was pain in my ass as well. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on April 23, 2014, 04:12:19 PM I don't understand why people won't just figure the math to solve for KRKTE then "set it and forget it" I kinda like scaling it a bit so I can underscale the MAF by a fixed percentage.. just a touch... to avoid ps_w limits w/o having to REALLY hack at KFLF and KFKHFM. I know most everybody here will yell at me to use the 5120 hack, but I am still not confident we have found all the ps dependencies :) Not that I would recommend that you MUST do it this way, just one reason you might not want a KRKTE that is the theoretical value... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Time 4 Rebuild on April 28, 2014, 06:20:52 PM Hopefully I don't totally confuse everyone with this but shouldn't TVUB be 3d?
As long as the fuel system is not returnless the fuel pressure will change with intake manifold pressure. So do you used the dead times for base fuel pressure or idle fuel pressure? Or does FRLFSDP give us a way to do this in a roundabout way. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: julex on April 29, 2014, 05:48:38 AM Hopefully I don't totally confuse everyone with this but shouldn't TVUB be 3d? As long as the fuel system is not returnless the fuel pressure will change with intake manifold pressure. So do you used the dead times for base fuel pressure or idle fuel pressure? Or does FRLFSDP give us a way to do this in a roundabout way. The pressure differential is constant where it matters, which is between inlet of injector (fuel rail) and outlet (intake manifold) because FPR sees to it that it remains so. As such, the injector always sees the same pressure (whatever the FPR is set to) and TVUB remains constant. It doesn't matter what fuel rail pressure vs ambient is (it will always be FPR + manifold pressure/vacuum) as far as TVUB goes. Does it make sense? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Time 4 Rebuild on April 29, 2014, 04:15:41 PM The pressure differential is constant where it matters, which is between inlet of injector (fuel rail) and outlet (intake manifold) because FPR sees to it that it remains so. As such, the injector always sees the same pressure (whatever the FPR is set to) and TVUB remains constant. It doesn't matter what fuel rail pressure vs ambient is (it will always be FPR + manifold pressure/vacuum) as far as TVUB goes. Does it make sense? That makes sense, forgot about manifold pressure trying to push the injector open. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Iaus on May 01, 2014, 05:56:29 AM :-[ Was trying yesterday to figure out KRTKE.
Have an 4B0906018AL with franken turbo and EV14 550cc injectors, Have scaled MAF house for S3/TT 225 house, Have tried theoretical mat for KRTKE, but i dont get a good nr that looks correct, dont have number her, since i was at work doing this last night stock KRKTE is 0,005661 Was thinking of using TVUB as in 550cc sheet I hope to learn how to do this the correct way :) 50,2624x0.4452/(372x0.684) = 0,087942 can anyone tell me what that is wrong here Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Iaus on May 01, 2014, 01:40:40 PM Is it possible that my KRKTE that i posted was wrong.
I was looking in another mappack for another file that it was in 16Bit Lohi so when i changed it i got 0,37507 do that look correct for ori? or is it still something that i have missed Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on July 15, 2014, 07:46:19 AM KRKTE: 0.05495 Voltage mS 7.04 - 4.36 10.06 - 1.64 12.03 - 1.158 14.08 - 0.751 17.88 - 0.40 I just wanted to bump these numbers as they seem to be calculated correctly right off the spec sheet and also seemed to be close enough starting numbers for my setup (Bosch 550's @ 4 bar). I did end up raising KRKTE to about .062 which seems odd, but my trims are within 1% so... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 18, 2014, 01:08:50 PM Has anyone gotten the 630cc Ev14s to run decently, (0280158298) -730cc at 4 bar. I based my numbers on what I pulled from the ME7 wizard, but I have not been able to find any proper starting values for TVUB. I'm using the older Nefmoto stage 3 base tune, any info is appreciated.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on August 18, 2014, 03:46:32 PM Has anyone gotten the 630cc Ev14s to run decently, (0280158298) -730cc at 4 bar. I based my numbers on what I pulled from the ME7 wizard, but I have not been able to find any proper starting values for TVUB. I'm using the older Nefmoto stage 3 base tune, any info is appreciated. http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/ It seems the 650's are the same as the 550's in which case you can use the values I quoted just above your post. Also, I recommend using Berttos Stage 3, though I'm not sure what happen to the "Tuned ECU Files" section of the forums. If you can't find the Berttos file, PM me and I can send it to you. When using the Berttos File I recommend setting KFKHFM to the stock values or at least lower the first column or your idle trims will be significantly richer than your partial throttle trims. I'm not sure why Berttos has a wacky KFKHFM. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 18, 2014, 04:22:03 PM Where are you seeing the 298s on that list, are they under a different #? They should not be the same as the 550s, the 298s I bought to replace the 117(550s) because the 298s are apparently ~730cc at 4 bar, unless I got ripped off haha..... I pmd you also, thanks
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on August 18, 2014, 04:26:48 PM Where are you seeing the 298s on that list, are they under a different #? They should not be the same as the 550s, the 298s I bought to replace the 117(550s) because the 298s are apparently ~730cc at 4 bar, unless I got ripped off haha..... I pmd you also, thanks http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4345.0 It seems the 550 numbers are at least a good starting point. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 18, 2014, 04:31:25 PM Ah ok good stuff, Ill start with the 550c values are go on! They should be pretty similar.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: _nameless on August 18, 2014, 05:53:00 PM Ah ok good stuff, Ill start with the 550c values are go on! They should be pretty similar. These are the values I use for my 650sTitle: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on August 18, 2014, 07:48:06 PM "print screen" is your friend dude :P
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on August 18, 2014, 08:10:21 PM "print screen" is your friend dude :P This is a lost art Nye. Guys (kids?) these days are using their phones for everything. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: _nameless on August 19, 2014, 02:23:46 AM this might be a little better
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ddillenger on August 19, 2014, 02:42:58 AM 0.07 with 60lb? Are you running E85?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 19, 2014, 02:50:37 PM I actually tried his values last night, was running in the low 10.xs AFR on 91. Maybe is for e85....
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BerkleyJ on August 19, 2014, 02:53:20 PM WOT AFR is open loop. Did you check lamfa? Berttos tune's lamfa is rich.
You should also be running 93 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 19, 2014, 03:29:58 PM I have not yet, I plan on tweaking it tonight, I have been pming you also ;). Only have 91 pisstane here in Cali, so I'm going easy on it until I can learn how to work with the timin tables.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Divune on August 24, 2014, 11:23:10 AM Does anyone have experience with correction the bucking issue at cruising/low loads? I've read KFMIRL and IOP have been tweaked to help this issue. I'm still on stock values for both.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: em.Euro.R18 on September 04, 2014, 03:45:26 PM Are you getting o2 swings with throttle TIP? I've found with some of the larger EV14 injectors you run into lean spots as you increase throttle angle and richness when you let off. Its something you'll have to tune for because of sub par atomization at low pulse(not to leave out nonlinear injector behavior). Larger the droplets size the more lag you'll have for the fuel to reach the intake ports.
Determine where you problem lies first if your throttle TIP is the problem then look into adjusting the accel/decel fuel and fuel film correction maps. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: S4addict on December 17, 2014, 07:23:41 PM Im planing on running these injectors are the specs on this page going in the right direction?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: bleach972 on December 26, 2015, 02:28:31 PM for 1.8t guys ,check your FKKVS map before you dial your injectors ,on 2.7tt stock it's 1 ,but in my file it's was not like that .
Had a hard time to found that :-\ Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: igo300 on February 09, 2016, 04:04:01 AM Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map. Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. Are you saying to change all values in these tables to 1 ? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: markpowell35 on February 09, 2016, 05:38:45 AM Quote Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map. Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. Do those maps even exist on me7.5 1.8t files i can't find them and i have a full .kp for my file? i.m having a nightmare trying to get my Bosch 550c (117's) dialled in, i do have an uprated DW65v Intank fuel pump but still using 3bar FPR so surely my pump shouldn't make any difference?? tried using TVUB values from latest spec sheet found on here with 43.5 PSI values and calculated krkte of 0.06014 but my idle fuel trim is -25% and partial is up to +17% i set my FKKVS to all 1's not sure what else to try... Edited...My Bad Nyet :) Title: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: RolandUsen on March 29, 2016, 08:57:45 AM I dont know if the Green Tops and Green Giants are the same. The Ford sheet you sent me has the same data, so maybe they are the same. If so, then use the Flow Rate vs KPA; Injector Offset vs Battery; Short Pulse; and Min Injector data found here:
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: EuroXs4 on February 05, 2017, 01:56:19 PM Sheet for Bosch injectors that used to be sold by ringer racing.I believe they were advertised as 1150cc but sheet says 1200cc.Hope this helps anyone looking to go that big.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: sonflasch on March 27, 2017, 12:41:30 AM Email-Information from Bosch Automotive Aftermarket ,
Some things might help or be corrected in the s4 wiki (Injection Spray angel) I have mount 0 280 158 117 on RS4 0 280 158 298 EV14 standard Stecker: UScar Strahl: E-Typ Alpha: 16° Gamma: 10° Delta: 270° Qstat: 403g/min @ 270kPa (n-Heptan) qdyn: 11,8mg/Hub @ 2,5ms Spannung [V] ts [ms] 7 2,60 8 1,96 9 1,57 10 1,31 11 1,11 12 0,96 13 0,84 14 0,74 16 0,58 0 280 158 117/0 280 158 118 EV-14-ES Stecker: UScar Strahl: E-Typ Alpha: 15° Gamma: 12° Delta: 270° Qstat: 353g/min @ 270kPa (n-Heptan) qdyn: 11,07mg/Hub @ 2,5ms 0 280 158 123 EV14ESxT Anschlussstecker Jetronic. 429,20 g/min (627,5 ccm/min) @ 3 bar. Alpha angel 25°, Gamm 0° Delta 90°. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on March 27, 2017, 12:47:03 AM thanks for this, I will update time permitting
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: sonique on March 27, 2017, 07:33:25 AM Email-Information from Bosch Automotive Aftermarket , 0 280 158 298 EV14 standard Stecker: UScar Strahl: E-Typ Alpha: 16° Gamma: 10° Delta: 270° Qstat: 403g/min @ 270kPa (n-Heptan) qdyn: 11,8mg/Hub @ 2,5ms Spannung [V] ts [ms] 7 2,60 8 1,96 9 1,57 10 1,31 11 1,11 12 0,96 13 0,84 14 0,74 16 0,58 i think this voltage not true see attached pictures this injector use gt500 mustang and i use this injector 0,74 14volt to low Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: sonflasch on March 27, 2017, 11:49:13 PM i think this voltage not true see attached pictures this injector use gt500 mustang and i use this injector 0,74 14volt to low I need information about 0 280 158 117 / 0 280 158 123 / 0 280 158 298 I wrote an email to motorsport@bosch.de / kundenberatung.kfz-technik@bosch.com and asked for technical data. They have told me so Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: aef on March 28, 2017, 05:02:27 AM We have another thread here with measured values which work perfect for me. (298)
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: 4ringpieces on April 03, 2017, 05:20:10 AM Is this the still the current good data sheet for 117's?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/4f3823396d6d414c25ab10ce12e7b59f.png) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jpurban on May 30, 2018, 11:59:08 PM Just wanted to say thanks for this post... and highlight the importance of doing this "last step" in my transition from stock injectors to the EV14s (298s, Ford Racing GT500). I've owned my car for 5 years and have been refining my tune, with lots of help from ddilenger, S4Wiki and Nefmoto posts. My hardware changes (bigger turbos, injectors, fueling upgrade, RS4 MAF, etc) were completed years ago. Cold surging was my last, lingering issue and I think I've finally resolved it.
I had bucking issues during cold start/warm up phase, struggling with them for quite some time. My warm engine tune is spot on, with RKAT and FRA both with trims of +/- 1%, varying some with air temps and different fuel, but never more than +/-3%. I initially assumed it was an enrichment problem (since I was trying to accelerate when encountering the lean out). Seems rational, right? I fucked with MAF curves, FKKVS, idle torque curves and KFBAKL to no avail. I only recently realized my lean out during warm up at engine speeds above idle was actually occurring during a decreasing load situation (load at cold idle is above the tip-in load). I know how weird this sounds, but my load decreased when coming off cold idle (1,000 rpm) and engaging 1st gear or accelerating in 2nd gear from a rolling idle (rpm ranging from 800 to 1500 or so). So, load driven accel enrichment, KFBAKL, was useless and the other steady state items I played with weren't appropriate for this transient condition. Only increasing KFWWL (appears to) ameliorate the issue. After increasing KFWWL and increasing the factory KFFWLW weighting curves at low load levels (low loads drop the weighting to almost zero), I think I might have actually addressed the issue. First attempt today showed much improvement, but I need to test again with higher values. Logs show lean out is still occurring, but it isn't as extreme and I didn't "feel" the car buck/surge like I've grown accustomed to experiencing. Strange enough, fixing the warm up curves, allowed me to set KFBAKL back to stock levels (much lower values than I had been running). And acceleration was smoother for it. I'm now thinking you only need to alter KRKTE, TVUB, FKKVS/FKKVSNWS and KFWWL/KFFWLW when converting to EV14s. The EV14s are so linear that FKKVS only needs moderate changes (from 1.00) at off idle injection (2 to 4 ms or so) and low rpms (1000 to 1500 or so). Hell, I might not require that with higher KFWWL values. KFBAKL tuning might offer throttle response improvements, but my tip-in lean out seems to be no worse than 5%, lasting no more than a fraction of a second, using stock values. So, big changes (50%+) to KFBAKL, like I've seen suggested in some posts here, shouldn't be necessary. Of course, I've only tuned my car, a 2001 Porsche 996 Turbo -- a sample size of 1. Your experience might be different, but I'll bet the turbo Audis using ME7 might be similar. So after all this... A big thanks to nehalem regarding his following post, which pointed me in the right direction. Sup players! Nehalem back again with your rock-star EV14 injector update. No doubt, Santa arrived early this year! Lol, anyways. For the standard injectors, here's the deal. EV14 52# @ 3-bar / 60# @ 4-bar. Run the following: KRKTE: 0.05495 TVUB: 2.5203 1.2695 1.0081 0.8881 0.7654 The elite trick: KFFWL_0_A / KFFWL_1_A: Multiply the entire table by 1.10, or a 10% increase. Could be more or less, but I've found 10% to work quite well so far. Obv, I'll update as I continue to tune. Car starts right up and doesn't hesitate very much during cold operations. You'd obviously be an idiot if you go testing the car's power while the engine is cold. What I do know is that this trick restores most of the car's cold-temperature smoothness and eliminates the nasty bucking we all have grown to know and hate. My theory, in fact many people's theory, is that the characteristic bucking occurs because the car's electronic throttle interrupts and retards timing and throttle-plate angle, which to the driver feels super-non-linear because there isn't a physical cable connecting your foot and the throttle. Thus it's really an issue of "expected" versus "perceived" acceleration, for you HCI (human computer interaction) experts. Therefore, you can't just "press the gas" more like you would on a cabled throttle [or an old / antique / carbed] car. Basically, without this trick, the incorrectly calibrated cold start of the engine (read: overly lean AFR) makes the response feel like the car is straight up terrible to drive until the operating temperature raises a bit. The worst part is that the closed-loop lambda operations turn the leanness into compensated richness, and thus the fueling variance of cold-starts without this trick straight up sucks. It sucks, got that everyone, it blows huge dongage. Use this trick. [or whatever "trick" you like to use, just sayin.] One last bit: KFZWWLRL: If you run advanced timing, like the baller we all know you are, then you probably want to *double* the warmup timing retardation chart. But hey, you know your setup, and it's your engine. KFLF, FKKVS, KFKHFM are still stock M-box. OK home stars. Knowledge is power. Fly high young jedis. Dr Brown out. p.s. I run the Stock MAF / Stock Airbox / Stock Bosch MAF sensor from the early model A-box. M.Y. 2000 car. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: _nameless on May 31, 2018, 06:47:13 AM Here's dead times for 1000cc
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: jpurban on July 17, 2018, 09:45:40 PM Just a check... The TVUB values listed below for the 298s are for fuel pressure of 39.15 psi, the Ford GT500 standard.
I suspect these values are too low for most of us and need to be scaled up by something similar to injector flow rate scaling. I'm running 65 psi fuel pressure and found the scaling factor of SQRT(65/39.15) to be almost spot on, at least for my typical 13.5 volts. Email-Information from Bosch Automotive Aftermarket , Some things might help or be corrected in the s4 wiki (Injection Spray angel) I have mount 0 280 158 117 on RS4 0 280 158 298 EV14 standard Stecker: UScar Strahl: E-Typ Alpha: 16° Gamma: 10° Delta: 270° Qstat: 403g/min @ 270kPa (n-Heptan) qdyn: 11,8mg/Hub @ 2,5ms Spannung [V] ts [ms] 7 2,60 8 1,96 9 1,57 10 1,31 11 1,11 12 0,96 13 0,84 14 0,74 16 0,58 0 280 158 117/0 280 158 118 EV-14-ES Stecker: UScar Strahl: E-Typ Alpha: 15° Gamma: 12° Delta: 270° Qstat: 353g/min @ 270kPa (n-Heptan) qdyn: 11,07mg/Hub @ 2,5ms 0 280 158 123 EV14ESxT Anschlussstecker Jetronic. 429,20 g/min (627,5 ccm/min) @ 3 bar. Alpha angel 25°, Gamm 0° Delta 90°. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: tao13 on December 30, 2018, 01:31:50 PM Hi all. Maybe this help someone.
I run at 5-7 degree in the daytime aproximatly 25km (after i wrote the new file in ecu) with 550cc injectors and i have idle -4 and partial +3.8 and these days will drive more to see what happen fkkvs is stock BAM 225hp maf stock BAM 225hp fpr 3 bar (from stock 1.8t AUM 150hp) turbo K04-023 krkte 0.05733 tvub 7.96 10 11.97 14.01 15.98 1.5760 1.1040 0.9413 0.8373 0.7600 temin and teminva 0.600 i don't modified other tables at 3 degree in the morning car start ok these setting was from a a4 quattro 1.8t 190hp BEX (i think with fuel preassure regulator in the fuel filter and it's 4 bar) they are very closed as nehalem , but i don't know if his are for 3 or 4 bar fpr KRKTE:0.05850 TVUB:1.6482 1.1121 0.9415 0.8188 0.5841 i think settings for voltage 7.96 , 10 , 15.98 are never used from the ecu , maybe only if have voltage damage in electrical circuit Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: tao13 on January 04, 2019, 12:37:48 PM AFTER 50km i have 7.8 partial LTFT and i adjusted it with 7%. Will inform what happen in few days.
Hi all. Maybe this help someone. I run at 5-7 degree in the daytime aproximatly 25km (after i wrote the new file in ecu) with 550cc injectors and i have idle -4 and partial +3.8 and these days will drive more to see what happen fkkvs is stock BAM 225hp maf stock BAM 225hp fpr 3 bar (from stock 1.8t AUM 150hp) turbo K04-023 krkte 0.05733 tvub 7.96 10 11.97 14.01 15.98 1.5760 1.1040 0.9413 0.8373 0.7600 temin and teminva 0.600 i don't modified other tables at 3 degree in the morning car start ok these setting was from a a4 quattro 1.8t 190hp BEX (i think with fuel preassure regulator in the fuel filter and it's 4 bar) they are very closed as nehalem , but i don't know if his are for 3 or 4 bar fpr KRKTE:0.05850 TVUB:1.6482 1.1121 0.9415 0.8188 0.5841 i think settings for voltage 7.96 , 10 , 15.98 are never used from the ecu , maybe only if have voltage damage in electrical circuit Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: SixSeven on June 04, 2019, 02:30:20 PM Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map. Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. "M" box definition: Code: <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x11AB7" flags="0x0"> You're the man, Julex. This has been hanging me up for the last few weeks dialing in my recently installed 298's. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on June 09, 2020, 07:27:46 AM Never had an issue with cold start, but warm (not hot) start usually needs playing with. HiWhat cards do you need to pay attention to? on warm there is a problem with starting, it takes a very long time to start. everything is good on the cold, right after the stop it starts up well too. but some time after the stop I spin the starter for a very long time. thank. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: tbm on August 31, 2020, 08:50:07 AM Just an FYI, I've had a problem with my injectors starting with 550s couple of years ago and now with 1000CC where when cold starting the engine, the first minute of mild throttle accelration would show the engine going first very rich and then very lean (sometimes it would start literally bucking). It almost seems like the warm up map is completely off for bosch where at some RPMs it needs to be much less and at some much more but I have no patience to calibrate that map. Hi guys,Long story short, I noticed that the lambda FR_W output changes are very lazy when engine is cold resulting in large lag to lambda changes and I finally found the maps governing it. Comes out that when engine is cold and "I" value of PID controller for lambda is lowered so that the transitions take place much longer. Once I altered it to normal "1" value, I stopped having the issues. maps: FLRM - TMOT (engine temp depedant) FFRITMS - ITMS (engine start temp dependant) Good luck finding any info on this in Funktionsrahmen.... :-\ Change both to "1" and you should stop having these issues. "M" box definition: Code: <XDFTABLE uniqueid="0x11AB7" flags="0x0"> i have the same issue. Does anyone know similar maps in ME7.5? Thanks in advance! Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: michalborz on October 11, 2020, 01:08:43 PM Hi What cards do you need to pay attention to? on warm there is a problem with starting, it takes a very long time to start. everything is good on the cold, right after the stop it starts up well too. but some time after the stop I spin the starter for a very long time. thank. How did you fix your warm start problem? I have same problem. If i leave overnight starts right up. Shut off and restart no problem ether. But if i go to store for 30-45 min takes 5-8 sec cranking before the car starts. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on October 11, 2020, 03:30:51 PM How did you fix your warm start problem? I have same problem. If i leave overnight starts right up. Shut off and restart no problem ether. But if i go to store for 30-45 min takes 5-8 sec cranking before the car starts. log coolant temp sensor? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on October 12, 2020, 05:04:42 AM How did you fix your warm start problem? I have same problem. If i leave overnight starts right up. Shut off and restart no problem ether. But if i go to store for 30-45 min takes 5-8 sec cranking before the car starts. Hellomy problem was most likely associated with the nozzle which was not tight. until I switched to stock. after cleaning in ultra sound and checking at the stand I will tune for a new one. I think the problems with starting and skipping at idle were due precisely to this. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: doublerwest on January 18, 2021, 03:00:30 PM here's the theoretical way to calculate krkte straight from some bosch manual: ml/min or g/per min ? on this qstat@300kpa X 1.1547(http://chrispaltzat.com/images/avant/build/maestro/KRKTE_sh.jpg) all of the q-stat values in the above excel sheet are calculated for 300 kilopascals which is 43.5 psi. to convert the operating pressure to what a standard b5 s4 would use, we need it for 4-bar, which is 58.0 psi. to do the conversion: q-stat * sqrt(58.0/43.5) ==q-stat @ 300kPa * 1.1547 for my application = 532 * 1.1547 = 614 cc/min that's 614 cc/min of n-heptane... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on January 28, 2021, 12:39:23 AM most likely cc / min
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on January 28, 2021, 01:34:24 AM most likely g / min Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Imho on February 25, 2021, 02:40:00 PM anyone tested such injectors? BOSCH 0 280 158 235 --> 750cc or 500g/m look like good alternative for 0 280 158 123
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on February 25, 2021, 05:46:38 PM anyone tested such injectors? BOSCH 0 280 158 235 --> 750cc or 500g/m look like good alternative for 0 280 158 123 got a datasheet for it? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Auriaka on February 25, 2021, 08:12:14 PM anyone tested such injectors? BOSCH 0 280 158 235 --> 750cc or 500g/m look like good alternative for 0 280 158 123 I use these all the time. Had a set on my 1.8T, just put a set into my S4. Have about a dozen clients running them because they were on sale on FCP euro. Good injectors. I posted specs on this very thread a page or two back Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Auriaka on February 25, 2021, 08:16:21 PM I was incorrect, It was in a different thread, however here is the link and the information. Tweaking may be required but Its what I use with a lambda control of +-3%
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=17511.msg139683#msg139683 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Imho on February 25, 2021, 11:40:23 PM I was incorrect, It was in a different thread, however here is the link and the information. Tweaking may be required but Its what I use with a lambda control of +-3% http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=17511.msg139683#msg139683 Thanks for posting this, those are 35$ each in local shop while 630cc ~55$ so price wise very attractive. If you used them successfully I think I will give them a shot ;) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nyet on February 26, 2021, 12:52:36 AM I was incorrect, It was in a different thread, however here is the link and the information. Tweaking may be required but Its what I use with a lambda control of +-3% http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=17511.msg139683#msg139683 was hoping for spray pattern specs etc. so I can add it to https://s4wiki.com/wiki/Fuel_injectors though a TVUB/KRKTE table would be really nice as well on that wiki page. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Imho on February 26, 2021, 08:51:13 AM I use these all the time. Had a set on my 1.8T, just put a set into my S4. Have about a dozen clients running them because they were on sale on FCP euro. Good injectors. I posted specs on this very thread a page or two back whats the connector type? I got lost a bit.. 0 280 158 123 - 630cc --> EV1 --> fits stock S4 harness 0 280 158 117 - 550cc --> EV6 --> requires EV6 -> EV1 adapter 0 280 158 235 - 750cc --> EV14 ? Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Blazius on February 26, 2021, 12:23:22 PM They are EV14 yes.
When I initially found out about these injectors( and posted about them a few times) here(and internationally) the prices were like 20 usd/ per, now its like 40 usd/euro/pounds per since they have skyrocketed for some reason! These are used on the B8/B9 platform with the tfsi engines with additional MPI injection, if you can find a crashed one you could get em for a steal. These would still be my upgrade injetors for the future, but yes some specs would be nice, however I think there is a vid of spray pattern for it from Finjector - yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dFod4yIums Good atomization for sure. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Imho on February 26, 2021, 12:59:45 PM They are EV14 yes. When I initially found out about these injectors( and posted about them a few times) here(and internationally) the prices were like 20 usd/ per, now its like 40 usd/euro/pounds per since they have skyrocketed for some reason! These are used on the B8/B9 platform with the tfsi engines with additional MPI injection, if you can find a crashed one you could get em for a steal. These would still be my upgrade injetors for the future, but yes some specs would be nice, however I think there is a vid of spray pattern for it from Finjector - yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dFod4yIums Good atomization for sure. I am still getting hard time understanding connector type... if we take this picture: (https://i.postimg.cc/BLc6qRT8/wtyk.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLc6qRT8) and now picture of 0280158235: (https://i.postimg.cc/BPXdhKnq/235.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BPXdhKnq) it looks like it uses rounded aka denso injector type plug. Which plug / adapter you guys use? is this correct one? (https://i.postimg.cc/182c6VLG/denso.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/182c6VLG) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: Auriaka on February 26, 2021, 06:28:15 PM I have client cars that are using the EBAY pigtail adapter from DENSO to ev1... On my personal car I pulled the injector plugs off a 07K car in boneyard and just spliced the plugs on my stuff.
Nyet, Your welcome to use the information that I posted on the 235 injectors for the wiki, if there is anything else that you need let me know... I unfortunately do not have specifics on spray pattern and such though Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: GolfSportWagen on February 26, 2021, 07:39:44 PM There are any number of connector and adapter suppliers online. Personally I prefer pigtails or just the connector to replace the OE connector vs. adapters but both should work as long as they are properly installed quality components.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: nupustas on September 18, 2021, 04:42:32 AM Does anyone uses 0280158235 731cc/min inejctors with 3bar regulator and pump gas (91-93octane)? Do you have TVUB values? Or maybe it should work with 750cc TVUB?
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: kruftindustries on February 11, 2022, 03:25:35 PM Can anyone tell me what's going on here? TVUB too low at 14V? What is going on with 1.4v and then 1.6v? NOLRA is disabled and I'm fairly sure MAF is close
I'm losing my mind trying to get fueling right with 550cc's from ECStuning Chart 1 ONLY Neutral gear and high RPM was used to get most of the values below 2.5V, higher load at similar airflow results in more or less sane AFR (I'm trying to emphasize low injector ontime) Chart 2 Heavy(ier) - ie in gear load was used to plot airflow below 2.5V I'll try low load high RPM again with larger TVUB, and post the results, maybe TVUB is only obvious at really low injector ontime and this just isn't emphasized outside of idle fueling in the wiki and most threads I've seen Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: kruftindustries on February 11, 2022, 06:44:38 PM Chart below is with TVUB from nyet's chart on page 1 of this thread interpolated for my 4bar fuel pressure regulator and the same high RPM low load method was used to plot values below 2.5v (~125kg/hr). Looks like it was TVUB after all, I think the -15% lean around idle with the correct values is actually something to do with kat heating. Think I'm just going to ignore that in the future since everything else is roughly correct (kfkhfm == 1).
for each maf voltage with outlier data filtered: ((fr_w -1) + (frm_w - 1) +1) * lamsoni_w = lambda correction ti_b1 - (tvu_w - tvsp_w) OR t1_bX - TVUB @ voltage = injector squirt time injector squirt time * (lambda correction -1 )= injector squirt difference injector squirt difference + TVUB should roughly equal your new TVUB at ub (not wub, no interpolation required) battery voltage. this is just back of the napkin stuff but doing the above with a couple tables in a spreadsheet showed an error that roughly resulted in nyet's TVUB table values interpolated so I just copied them over and the end result is in the attached chart. Appears those numbers are for the injectors I have. I'll hook up a variable power supply and test them at TVUB axis voltages to double check at some point but it's working well enough as is. TVUB 8V 10V 12V 14V 16V 3.227 1.611 1.155 0.749 0.539 KRKTE 0.05328 TLDR: In a wideband car, TVUB can be tuned empirically by logging RPM at sequential steps between idle and rev limit at each MAF voltage(range) with engine in neutral (about 10 seconds per MAF voltage range was good enough to show a trend for me). The resulting measured lambda and fuel trim is averaged at each MAF voltage and the correction trend can be plotted. This correction percentage can be correlated via the MAF voltage with the injector on time Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: kruftindustries on February 13, 2022, 06:03:27 AM Just FYI, the discrepancy in KRKTE theoretical 0.05151 vs what I ended up with 0.05328 is it appears the OEM calibrator baked in a MAF offset across the board in KFKHFM, the weird KRKTE gets rid of that while underscaling the MAF a few %, with HFM set to all 1's. I'm not sure why, maybe either safety margin for dirty MAF or they calibrated without the plastic flow straightener installed?
edit: this was what worked for me with AWM engine code Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on June 15, 2022, 05:44:46 AM How did you fix your warm start problem? I have same problem. If i leave overnight starts right up. Shut off and restart no problem ether. But if i go to store for 30-45 min takes 5-8 sec cranking before the car starts. hello all friendsI finally solved the problem with a warm start and not stable idle. after cleaning the injectors in ultra sound, the master did not find any significant leakage of one of the injectors after lengthy tests and hot start tinctures, nothing led to a positive result I had to remove the ramp and look for leaks, as there was an understanding that a long start was associated with a rich mixture so it happened the nozzle did not bleed fuel into the intake for a long time and created a steam mist in the entire manifold, and only after a long scrolling by the starter, when the car was purged, did it start. I had to replace it with a new injector. I concluded for myself that it is necessary to carefully check for serviceability. now everything is fine, the start is perfect, the idle is excellent, the trim is + -0.8 Maybe someone will find this information useful. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: BOLT on June 17, 2022, 06:23:56 AM hello all friends.
can anyone tell me how to use ME7Tuner? I downloaded the folder with files v 1.05 but I don’t understand how to start it. please do not swear. did not create a separate topic. Thanks. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hiszpan995 on October 18, 2022, 03:09:20 AM Hi, I read the whole thread, but I must admit that I got lost in it. If this is not a problem, would anyone be able to tell which maps to what values should be set initially for BOSCH 0 280 158 123? The flow from what I can see is 627 at 3 bar and that's what I stay at.
Will these values be suitable as baseline for a possible correction? Bosch EV14 ~ 630 cm3 at 4 bar (550 cm3 at 3 bar) KRKTE: 0.05745 TVUB: 3.364, 1.572, 1.128, 0.854, 0.568 FKKVS set to 1 Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: blairl on October 18, 2022, 06:42:29 AM Hi, I read the whole thread, but I must admit that I got lost in it. If this is not a problem, would anyone be able to tell which maps to what values should be set initially for BOSCH 0 280 158 123? The flow from what I can see is 627 at 3 bar and that's what I stay at. Will these values be suitable as baseline for a possible correction? Bosch EV14 ~ 630 cm3 at 4 bar (550 cm3 at 3 bar) KRKTE: 0.05745 TVUB: 3.364, 1.572, 1.128, 0.854, 0.568 FKKVS set to 1 I can't speak to these values, but generally speaking to get started: new krkte = original KRKTE * (new injector flow / old injector flow) if you have appropriate values for TVUB from a datasheet, you can either interpolate them if the voltages don't match, or change the axis on TVUB to make them match. Set FKKVS to 0, drive around long enough for the car to adapt. Tune TVUB and KRKTE off of the idle adaption and multiplicative adaption (fuel trims). Tip in / tip out enrichment may need to be adjusted too. Basically just follow PRJ's advice in the quote below. That process worked wonders for me, just make sure you reset adaptation after you make a change, otherwise you end up chasing your tail. Since I pretty much do not tune anymore, here's some info on how to scale aftermarket injectors, when you have no datasheet for them. Let's say you have injectors on the car for which you do not have any clue what the TVUB could be, maybe you're not 100% on the flow rate either. Let's assume for the moment that everything else on the car is linearized - because if not, then good luck to you. It is still doable, but without a huge amount of experience and knowledge you will not find out what's scaled wrong, so it is outside the scope of this topic. Also before starting, pressure test the car and make sure there are no air leaks whatsoever anywhere, otherwise you're gonna have to do this all over again after fixing the leaks. 1. Set FKKVS to 1 everywhere. 2. Set KRKTE into the ballpark that you think it could be. By far the easiest way is to divide the OEM injector size by the current injector size and multiply KRKTE by this number, instead of trying to do theoretical calculations. 3. Take TVUB from some random injectors, that are at least the same type - e.g. EV6, EV14. 4. Start the car, if it doesn't start, you probably messed up really badly, so try to correct your error (or remove and clean the sparkplugs if you totally flooded it). 5. Let it warm up fully, so it's completely hot and there is no load on it. 6. Find KRKTE value so that you have more or less 1-2% fuel trim on idle with the hot engine. 7. Put some load on the engine, e.g. turn on the aircon, rotate the power steering, slip the clutch a little, put it in D if it's an auto instead of P/N, whatever. Observe what happens. a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase KRKTE, decrease TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load. b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease KRKTE, increase TVUB at the voltage where you are testing (or just multiply the whole table), so FT is still good on idle, but does not drift away on load. Usually it is good to change TVUB in 2% increments. Repeat this process until it's more or less stable, then proceed to 8. 8. Set the car on idle, fully warmed up. Increase the RPM, to 3000, then 6000 rpm without any load on the engine. a) If the fuel trim goes positive, increase TVUB, decrease KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle. b) If the fuel trim goes negative, decrease TVUB, increase KRKTE to compensate, so that you still have good fuel trim on idle. Repeat this process until you can slowly increase the RPM on hot idle and the fuel trim doesn't drift away. And you're pretty much done. The rest compensate using FKKVS. Beware of large changes (more than 5% on high RPM), this most likely means your fuel pressure is dropping -> verify with a fuel pressure gauge. Make sure you do not make any sudden movements/load changes, as your tip-in/tip-out enrichment might not be correct - those can be adjusted via KFBAKL/KFVAKL by making sharp throttle movements and observing what actual lambda is doing, but only after you have set KRKTE and TVUB correctly. Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hiszpan995 on October 19, 2022, 04:06:24 AM if you have appropriate values for TVUB from a datasheet, you can either interpolate them if the voltages don't match, or change the axis on TVUB to make them match. I have described my TVUB as temperature dependence to ms ??? (https://images92.fotosik.pl/627/4e9715d4cb49eb86med.jpg) (https://www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/4e9715d4cb49eb86) Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: blairl on October 19, 2022, 06:43:06 AM The BFV damos I have is a mess, it's probably the same one you're using. There are many mistakes / inaccuracies in the definitions. If you're not sure if what you're working with is correct, it helps to check it against a bin and def that are done properly. The 018CB bin/def floating around here is pretty good from what I recall, maybe try comparing to that.
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: hiszpan995 on October 19, 2022, 07:12:40 AM The BFV damos I have is a mess, it's probably the same one you're using. There are many mistakes / inaccuracies in the definitions. If you're not sure if what you're working with is correct, it helps to check it against a bin and def that are done properly. The 018CB bin/def floating around here is pretty good from what I recall, maybe try comparing to that. sorry for the confusion with the BFV that's what I called the modification to my AMK 1ML906032. (this is the basic soft and mappack for modifying my ECU due to the fact that my unit is AMU. The reason for this was the switch to the LSU 4.2 lambda probe for AFR)Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: JeanAwt on February 18, 2023, 05:02:03 AM Hi
i am trying to get 0280158117 to work on 1.8tAWT but she drowns. Do not start krkte 0.0550 tvub 8v 2.1843 10v 1.4348 12v 1.0401 14v 0.7894 16v 0.6988 TEMIN/VA 0.48 my starting setting is rotten? or I may have a leaky injector... Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: ratosluaf on May 17, 2023, 11:05:57 PM 0280158123 aka porsche 997 630cc injectors datasheet, taken from another topic:
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: JeanAwt on April 27, 2024, 07:44:41 AM 0280158117
Title: Re: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration Post by: TeknoFi on June 01, 2024, 10:25:50 AM i'm about to buy either those 530, or 630. Are the 630 worth the extra 100€ for them?
0280158117 (530cc, 6-hole spray, 15deg) ~200€/set 0280158298 (630cc, 16-hole spray, 20deg) ~300€/set because they are short nozzle injectors I might lean towards the cheaper one with a slightly smaller angle, to prevent wall wetting as much as possible. Anyone have thoughts? |