NefMoto

Siemens Mototron DEKA IV 630cc Injector Specs

 Newbie question but how are we able to determine battery compensation values as well as constant from this information? My issue is the values given in the injector wizard are a bit off in my setup. I have poor idle and think I need to adjust those values.

You can't determine the voltage specific latency values from this.

For that, I would recommend this website:
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

I think the next theory can be applied:
From siemens 630cc specs, injector turn on time is 1,14ms and turn off time is 0,85ms. Latency=opening time - closing time= 1,14-0,85=0,29ms at 14V
To calculate the compensation for other values of battery voltage, you should apply the same amount of the difference between the original latency and new latency (0,29ms in this case)  at 14V.Correct me if I'm wrong, please!
I do not understand yet:TEMIN and TEMINVA need to be changed? How? Also, KFSZDUB, KFTSRL and KFSZT is used to calibrate injectors or is part of dwell coils adjustment?

Ford racing sells these injectors:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-g302.pdf

Siemens / mototron 60# / 630cc

I'm a bit baffled, how is that latency? I'm pretty sure what you just calculated isn't latency...

I want to say injection time offset, TVUB,  at 14 Volt

For some reason my battery compensation values in the base file for the deka' 630's using Me7 are completly different than the values given from the link.

For instance my values on the base file:   7.8848v is 1.0935ms; 9.9968v is 0.7334ms; 11.9680v is 0.5174; 14.0096v is 0.4374ms; 15.9808v is 0.3920ms.

why is this?

MAF and load could be underscaled, KRKTE injector scale could be different, injection time correction based on load could be different, etc...

The battery compensation values are just the last step in the system for calculating injection time, so it is possible something in an earlier step has done something that is not stock.

I see that this is taken from Tapp tunes b/c this is what he uses in his defintions. Regardless what lag you use you will always get misfires/rough idle since these injectors' spray pattern is inappripriate for 2.7engine. I had dekas, they sucked. Bought ev14s and by just changing injector constant to get proper block 032 readings, I got rid of all the misfires etc. This tell me the dekas just plain suck.

Dekas need to have the low load low RPM injection correction tuned to get them to idle well.

I thought that the first step was getting the battery compensation down then moving onto injector constant for overall fueling. Then finally injection correction. This is confusing the Hell out of me I've reduced my battery compensation by 15% from my base file and it seemed to help until I started over fueling like crazy at idle so I decreased the constant from .04975 to .04100 but I'm still overfueling. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

I'm mafless by the way.

I had the same issues with my 630cc's.  I ditched them for Genesis 550cc's and couldn't be happier.  Everything just seems so much smoother.

Idle is buttery, power delivery seems to be a lot more smooth as well

Main issue with the Deka 630ccs is they are very inconsistent at short injection times. So they are very hard to tune at idle, because they don't reliably inject the amount of fuel you ask for. If you increase the idle RPM and load, you can bring the injectors into a longer injection time where they consistently inject the right amount of fuel.

I don't know why anyone has trouble tuning idle, as the closed loop takes care of it for me no problem, i always idle at a constant lambda 1. 

Rick

so are those latency times in the ford chart calculated at 39psi? if so how can they be converted for 43.5psi? or would they be the same?

"44.95 1.1768"

This says that latencies must be multiplied by 1.1768 for 44.95psi (closest to 4bar in thespec sheet). The more fuel pressure, the more injector has to work against it delaying full opening of the valve.

Hi Guys,

Just a question on the Siemens injectors - are the 630cc injectors mentioned here the same as those that the B5 RS4 uses? Just trying to figure out which injectors are refered to here... I have a set of injectors which is supposed to be from the RS4 and they say Siemens Deka, but I don't have any other specs on them...?
Thanks

Just wanted to say, that you can punch those values into Excel and fit a curve, then get the correct multiplier for 4 bar...

http://www.siemensdeka.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=10

Links from the above page for lazies :):

http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114191.jpg
http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg

I use 5 of these in my fivetech...

in the main page :
Gain: 0.11ms/mg
Offset: 0.055ms
Turn on time @ 14VDC: 1.14ms
Turn off time: 0.85ms @ 600KPa

in the spec sheet:
Gain: 0.11ms/mg
Offset: 0.67ms (more tha 10x !)
Turn on time : 1.3ms (more than 14%)
Turn off time: 0.7ms  (17% less !)

It

So i plugged the values from the spec sheet into excel.  I graphed at 2.66 bar and at 4 bar I used a correction factor of 1.211 to get the 4 bar values.  You could use the 2.66 bar formula and come up with your own correction factor if you don't like mine.
to determine voltage offset (ms) for voltages not listed in the spec sheet use these formulas

Y= Voltage
X= voltage offset (ms)

@ 2.66 bar
Y= -4.419* ln(x) -9.9033

@ 4 bar
Y= -4.419* ln(x) -10.749

here are the values I got for 4bar
7.04      2.314814
10.0672      1.166826
12.0384      0.747
14.08      0.47058
17.8816      0.19907

How do you go about calculating the proper temin (minimum injector on time) based off the spec sheets?  I would think it should be MinPW (minimum repeatable pulse width) x (the pressure correction factor that is applied to the voltage table).  so for the siemens 60lber's to go from 2.66 bar which is what the calibration data should it be multiplied by 1.211 to get to 4 bar?  Makes sense when  I think about it but the values seem too high.

*edit
I found how to get temin in one of tony's posts.
New Temin is (old temin)* (old flow rate) / (new flow rate)  then i don't think this time should be any less than the minpw listed in the spec sheet, but corrected for fuel pressure.

So I'm still having some trouble understanding how to convert the latency numbers to 4 bar. Can someone please list them for me for the following voltages:

16v-
14v-
12v-
10v-
8v-

Thanks

"teach a man to fish..."

Anyway, if you only read the whole thread... couple of posts up "judeisnotobscure" posted a screenshot with what TVUB values he used in his tune after interpolating all the voltages needed.

What's the best way to do this?

Idle torque, KFMRES if the memory serves.

That is torque reserve @ idle. Tony suggests increase torque (I assume requested torque), but doesn't mention torque reserve. Not sure is this is what he meant.

Thanks though.

I think he is talking about idle torque reserve.

obviously, you can't increase actual torque; a stable idle is one that supplies as much torque as is required to keep the rpm consistent given the constant load on the motor at idle.

However, if you increase idle torque reserve (which is the amount of instantaneous torque from timing increase available at idle), it will pull timing, and you'll need both more air and fuel to make the same torque (at a given RPM), which brings up idle load (at a given RPM).

Of course, this is my understanding of torque reserve. I could be completely wrong.

Also my exact understanding, I have also compared logs of when I have made changes to KFMRES, and the data confirmed.

Very cool. So my assumptions were completely wrong (aren't they always ;))

Thanks for the help guys.

For information sake ..

On the 1.8T 20V , I found that if one index's the dekas as best as possible the mis fires are almost gone .

Fitting the injectors as per the stockers (all plugs parallel to rail ) doesn't mean the injector holes or pintels are in the OEM orientation. you need to rotate the injectors to get the pintels lined up parallel to the rail.

Any one else found this ?

Anybody menage to dial this injectors on 1.8T?
What TVUB, TEMIN, and FKKVS to start with?

@ 4bar
         10v     11v      12v     13v     14v      15v

   0.83   0.64   0.50   0.38   0.28   0.17

0.04351 KRK
0.424 temin.

Non scaled, WOT fueling is sport on with lambse control at .995-1.015.  FKKVS took care of bottom and middle

Similar to mine, but I can't dial up them on idle. Can't make stable idle whatever I do
I am using them on 3 Bar

Can you share your FKKVS?

My KRKTE is 0.055

Here. This is a wierd intake and throttle body though... Throttle body was moved away from intake plenum due to intricacies of owners setup...

Why would you ever use these, they are awful and they aint even that cheap.

Thank you very much, will try again tomorow, did you need to touch anything about lambda control, WBO PID?

I touched nothing other then aforementioned.

Only reason Im using these is because its what my client has on hand and his desperately needed more injector... its a stop gap that has turned into a science experiment

It doesen't work  :-\ :-\  car still won't idle. Rpm and AFR goes wild

Perhaps you have knock offs?

They're also notorious for leaking

When I go WOT and stop the car i have perfect idle for 15-20sec, but as time passes and car is at idle the things worsen.
I assume that this is beacuse wall weting or something similar. Even that lambda show close to 14.7 AFR, when I remove spark plugs I can see wet pistons

Today I have manage to bringe idle +- 30 RPM. But still away from ideal. I have much missfire

Most likely I will go back to 440 cc, green bosch

They're super sensitive to underhood temps in my experience. They fail (lean) or leak (rich)

Schould be original, I can't say 100% they are, beacuse I don't have experience with siemens. But they don't look like some bad copy

Now when you say it:
I have spoted same problem, they go from rich to lean condition and opposite as engine bay temperature change

easy way to test: open hood, get some canned air, brake cleaner etc (or even a leaf blower) and spray each injector

if your trims change, bingo.