NefMoto

Hi! Totally newbie in this forum. I hope this is the right place to post.

I have an Audi A4 3.0 2001/2002 with only one key and the key is not matched with the cluster. The IMMO shuts down the car after 2 secs. I bought the car in this condition and dont know what has happened before. The hey works mechanically and the locks (radio) works just fine. No doubt that the key is the korrekt one I think. No PIN came with the car. Can I extract the PIN from a Cluster dump ? I have bought and tried several ebayish tools but with no luck. I have VAG COM full but that doesnt help me much without the PIN.

The latest effort was with VAG CAN Commander v2.5. The binfile is made from there.

Any ideas ?

Thanks,

Bjorn

i m not sure if you can extract the pin from the cluster but you can extract it from the ecu quite easily.

DDillenger would be able to let you know if you can get the pin off the cluster hes always checking the forum he will chime in soon.

All you need is a OBD to USB / Galleto .

Check out this thread
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1168.0title=

Once you download it off the ecu post it and i will be able to let you know your pin.

Then you go into VCDS use the pin to log into instrument cluster and you can adapt the key.

bjorn, the pin is stored in the cluster, but can be tricky to find, since it's stored in different places.  check this thread out (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=3326.msg33649#msg33649) so that you can have some idea of what you're looking for.
-Cyril

edit: but it is easier to get the pin from the 95040, via the thread linked in vdubnation's reply.

Is the cluster pin the same as the skc code from the ecu?

It is neither guaranteed, nor necessary for the cluster and ecu pin's to match.  But if the cluster or ecu has never been changed or altered, then yes, they're probably the same.

Jiggle brings up a good point, key matching will mean that you need the cluster pin for sure, which may not be the same as the ecu.  It's still worth seeing the eeprom dump if available.

looking back at your original post, vag commander 2.5 should be able to correctly identify the cluster pin upon reading the bin.

based on a cursory scan of the cluster dump, I'm guessing 01010 or 04112, but those guesses are shots in the dark.

OK, thank you guys. I'll try this out asap and let the forum know of any progress.

Thx,

Bjorn

OK. I had a quick try this morning with the suggested PIN 01010 and 04112 but no luck.

As for vag commander 2.5. Where does the PIN code show if successful ? In the Instrument / Immobilizer the PIN section is greyed out and show only 0.

Thanks,

Bjorn

bjorn,
    then we're back to vdubnation's suggestion to use argdub's tool to pull the 95040, and we'll read it from there and hope they match (assuming it's an immo III vehicle).

OK, thank you. I think its IMMO2 ? ...

Using me7_95040.exe gives me nothing either. The communication cable is verified workling with vag commander 2.5 so it seemes its the vehicle isnt responding over ODB with me7_95040.exe.

See attached jpeg file. Also I have attached a report from VAG COM that might help someone letting me know if the vehicle is IMMO2 or IMMO3 ?


Thanks,


Bjorn

0x01 is a general error. Not much to determine from that. I'd try benching it. I've had issues reading it over OBD, but no problems on the bench. Its a bit of a pain but reliable.

Not qualified to say which immo sorry. To take a guess I'd say 3. Most 2002 or newer are.

The 95040 tool is not designed to work over OBD, you'll need to bench and bootmode it.

your vag-com scan doesn't show either engine ID or cluster ID.  The extra fields of those units should help identify whether immo II or III.

OK. Thanks again guys. I think I'll try and remove the ECU for a bench read out this weekend. Hopefully I can get the PIN from there.

Thanks,

Bjorn

Cyril makes a good point in the post above. Open the engine controller in VCDS. If on the third data line there is your VIN followed by an immo ID #, you should be immo3. If that line is blank it should be immo2

Sorry, I thought I had used the 95040 tool over OBD. Probably just my bad memory... It will work in bootmode for sure so that is the way to go. Just use --SKC when you read and you should have the PIN.

OK. Thank you!

Today finally I manufactured a cable to use with the 95040 tool. Thanks to you guys I got the SKC which I guess is the same as the PIN.

Attached is the binfile and a screendump from the 95040 tool.

Ill try to reattach the ECU again and try the PIN out asap


Thanks again guys!

glad to hear you're getting things sorted, and glad that it's an immo III vehicle.
(pin isn't stored in ECU for immo II)

06403 --> 03 19 in the 95040

I went back to see if I could find any pattern of the values in the cluster dump, and found it stored in decimal form[64 03] at E6, and ONLY at E6.

For immo III vehicles I'm accustomed to seeing it in hex form, low-high bits swapped, repeated three times, patterned in a cluster dump.

I didn't find [19 03] or [03 19] anywhere.

There is some serious variation to how the pin is stored in the cluster.
do you know if it's a bosch or vdo cluster?

Thanks for reporting back with your progress.

Hi!

From the readouts in various software Im 99% sure its a Bosch Cluster. I havent yet pulled it out and cheched.

Thanks,

Bjorn

Im sorry to tell you that the PIN 06403 didnt work i Vag Com. Wrong key.

Thats it for tonight.

Thanks!

Bjorn

?? didn't work for you to log into either the ecu or the cluster?

if neither, then I'm concerned that you aren't entering the pin into the correct field. (it happens more often than you'd think)

ECU:
[Select]
[01 - engine]
[LOGIN - 11]
enter five digit pin into the LEFT field
[DO IT!]
...same as first twenty seconds of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnZOs8PESI4)

CLUSTER:
[Select]
[17 - Instruments]
[LOGIN - 11]
enter five digit pin into the LEFT field
[DO IT!]
...same as first ten seconds of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t7D_9w0LtQ)

Thank you!

I only tested the Cluster Login but yes into the left field. I'll try the ECU login asap.


Thanks,

Bjorn

I tried the PIN in ECU login and it works :) ... not sure what use I have of it in my case but it proves that the extraction tools works just fine.

About the cluster make I have attached some pictures. My guess its a Bosch cluster. A strange thing is that the info in the Extra field has changed since my first efforts to try and learning keys. Im 99,99% sure that the first part of the info in the Extra field used to contain only 0-9 characters. It looks messed up now. I also went out to read out the bin from the Cluster again and when comparing the files in a hex editor some of the info has changed for sure.

See attached files. Sorry for complicating the original question but theese things tend to grow and with it the stubburnness to actually solve the problem.

Known facts so far:

The ECU PIN is 06403

The Cluster PIN is not 06403, 01010, 04112 or 39584


Update: I attached the screendump from VAG CAN Commander v2.5 and it suggested the PIN 39584. Not working either.


Thanks!

Bjorn

apparently your cluster is a color FIS (http://www.a4-freunde.com/showwiki.php?title=Teilenummern+Kombiinstrument+mit+Farb-FIS)? (very nice)
finding an 8e0 dump to compare it to wans't as quick or easy as I had hoped.
I've compared your two reads with an 8e0920930j dump that I found at a german site, and there seems to be information missing from your first read.

The J dump:
-also has [64 03] at E6, so finding the matching 06403 in the cluster dump was sheer coincidence. 
-also has the sequence of [10 10] in the same places as the bjorn dumps, so that affirms that 01010 or 04112 aren't valid as the pin.
-has the first nine digits of the vin starting at F7 (incomplete in both bjorn dumps), and then the full vin starting at 158 (incomplete in the second bjorn dump.

unless you have been writing an edited dump back to the cluster, I don't know why it would change on its own. (although I have read other posts about the perils of reading clusters with clone tools)
I don't advocate editing and re-writing the data to the cluster without verifying and understanding whether these cluster dumps are checksummed or not.  Everything else about the file visually appears normal. 

I don't know how else to direct you Bjorn, I did read somewhere that some of these clusters only contain some data used for calculating the pin, but not the pin itself.

best of luck, let us know what you figure out if you get it sorted.
-Cyril

http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5191107-Bosch-RB4-instrument-cluster-reset-to-quot-virgin-new-quot-state&p=69989614&viewfull=1#post69989614

http://www.esatinc.ca/Immobilizer/The_PIN_or_SKC_in_the_VW_and_Audi_Immobilizer.pdf

whether on this site or others, the more I read about the bosch encrypted clusters, the more I'm finding that they don't play well with cheap clone tools, even if they're only being read.

Even reading an rb4/crypto cluster with a clone tool damages the checksum blocks and causes a DEF error. You have been warned.

Thanks guys!

I certainly have been warned and I appreciate both the warnings and the other help from you.

As stated in the first message I bought the car in this condition and I think the cluster might have been damaged to start with. The car was bought from an auction site and the description stated "key cannot be programmed with the car". Possibly some workshop has already tried to do this with good or bad tools. I bought it with the target to replace the cluster if it cannot be saved.

From this point I have a couple of options.

Replacing the cluster with a used one  (I will need the PIN along with the cluster)
Replacing the data with a working flash (desoldering the flash ?)
Bring the car to an Audi workshop and let them do all the work. (expensive and my project dies)
Kill the Immobiliser part in the ECU (out of my knowledge)

This will be a new thread for sure but replacing the data in the existing cluster will be the most fun I think :) .. Second best choice is to modify the ECU to ignore the Key issue.

The car still starts for a few seconds so even if I have messed up the cluster further my guess is that it still works as bad or good as before ?

Any bright ideas ?  :)

And also - can we for sure say that getting the PIN out of a RB4 encrypted (this one is encrypted ?) cluster is impossible ? If yes, any used cluster from the junkyard is a bad idea if the PIN is missing.



Thanks,

Bjorn

defeating the immobilizer is the easiest way around the immo issue. by developing a bench setup and reading your 95040, you've already accomplished the toughest parts of the job.  read the "understanding/retrofitting-immobilizer" sticky for more details.


I wouldn't say impossible. PM Kompressd or NYET or PRJ (all of nefmoto) or put an add in the services wanted section.
maybe also PM JETTA ,97 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=87519) (of TDIclub Forum)
you need someone who's comfortable with clusters, and may end up having to desolder and read it with a programmer.

F1torrents is the guy you want to talk to. He has the real deal cluster tools and can do rb4.

However, I'd just defeat the immobilizer and remove the LED. It's really not that hard.

OK, thanks guys!

ddillinger - would you recommend trying the binfile from http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=3319.0title= ?

I might give it a try.


Bjorn

Just post your read, someone here will turn it off for you.

it's always better to off your own 95040.bin, which you posted on the first page.
attached is the off version.

Thank you Cyril!

I'll try this one out later today or tomorrow  :)


Thanks,

Bjorn

Just to let u know. The car starts with the immo-off bin file loaded in the EDU. Thank u :)

One new issue to take cars of is that efter 5 sekonds started the hazard lights comes on. No way to turn em off ;)


Thanks,

Björn

An update. Since the cluster is considered "damaged" by me I went ahead and took a deep breath and reprogrammed it with the original binfile from my first read with vag can commander 2.5. The lost/messed up data was restored and now VAG COM shows the correct info again.

Another thing we tried today was to read out the PIN with a china-tool called VAG K Pin Reader 3.9. It says that the PIN should be BF02. That means 48898 i decimal but doesnr work either in VAG COM as login for the cluster.

Some of u guys might think Im crazy but as I said the cluster is considered damaged already so I wanted to try it out. The car starts and runs but the radio is dead and the hazard lights keeps blinking.

Thanks again guys for all your input and hopefully some of this info can help someone else.


Thanks,

Bjorn

Try 00703.

damnit you beat me to it!

bjorn; [bf 02] swap and pair the bits --> 02bf and convert to decimal --> 0703

I wouldn't call you crazy at all.

"vag k pin reader"? whatever works.

 I just worry with all these connections and attempts at reading you're going to get a DEF error (bad checksums in the cluster) when you do get it working.

OK, thank you guys! :) ..  I like the way you think. Ill try out the PIN tomorrow.

The radio started after unplugging the battery for a few minutes. I worried that it might had something to do with the bad cluster. Another thing i noticed was that the climate control / fan stopped working (set to off) at the same time the hazard lights starts to flash. I guess the car goes in to some kind of safe mode when starting it without the correct keys even with the immo off bin in the ECU.

Anyhow .. thanks again and I'll let u know what happens tomorrow.


Bjorn

Hi!

An update. No success with the PIN 0703 I'm sorry to say.


Thanks,

Bjorn

00703. 0703 is too short.

...and add a zero to input a five digit pin into vcds.

sorry about the conflicting post, I always take that last step for granted, where it may not be so obvious.

Sorry yes, I did take the extra zero for granted but didn't tell you. The PIN I entered was indeed 00703. No luck I'm afraid.

Thanks!

Bjorn

The cluster pin will match the ecm pin as long as they are adapted to each other.  A used cluster will have a different pin but once adapted it will take the ecm pin.

I noticed based on your vag-com scan that by part number you have a reman cluster (the X at the end of the part number is factory reman). Perhaps it was never matched to the car? You said it didnt work when you got it.  What does it display for mileage?  The vin and immobilizer serial numbers should match from the cluster to the ecm if they are matched.  

Your cluster is a Bosch cluster, rb4. Every one I've seen in the US is encrypted or "crypto".  There is definately an issue with your cluster
as the vin doesn't show in the extra fields.  Even your original vag-com scan doesn't show the vin.  Maybe your first read damaged the cluster.

To make matters worse, if you get a used cluster you can't simply adapt it with vag-com even if you have the pin if the key you have hasn't previously been matched to the car.  You can only adapt 1 new component to the car at a time, ecm, cluster or key.  It can be done writing directly to the bin but that will be tough because your cluster is encrypted.  I think you're going to need to find someone with a genuine tool capable of handling the bosch crypto cluster if you want to make the immobilizer work.

Whats with the read coil fault in the cluster?  If that has an issue the key won't work anyway.

Where are you located?

Hi!

I'm locaded in Sweden. The milage says 182740 which seemes to be about correct based on the cars service history.

Yes, I noticed the coil error message when I first started working on the car. I was hoping that the issue was within the cabling or the coil itself. After resetting the error messages in VAG COM and then start the car first with the coil cables connected and then resetting again and trying to start without the coil connected I got different reads with VAG COM. I figured then that the coil and cables probably is functioning.

Yesterday I contacted a workshop that specialize in clusters about 1,5 hours drive from me. Maybee they can reset the cluster to default and provide me with the PIN. Still wainting for response from them.

About the X. I read somewhere that it could mean that the cluster was replaced. Did you mean that the X should med removed by the Audi workshop when fitted in the car ?


Thanks,

Björn

Try http://www.audi-crypto-tools.co.nf/

Had "bad offset" error with your file from the first posting.

Wow - thats a cool tool!

Thanks for sharing :)

I'll try it out later. Had some contact with the cluster specialist and they wanted me to send them the dump. Wainting for response.


Thanks,

Bjorn

The "x" will stay, it just means the cluster is a reman. It won't affect operation.

I noticed it and wondered if someone replaced the cluster, couldn't get it adapted and sold you the car because they couldn't figure it out.

OK. If I should buy another used cluster and viginize it, which part no will be comaptible ? Is there a list of compatible units ?

Thanks,

Bjorn