NefMoto

Hey I was wondering from your perspectives which map or maps should be used to dial in upgraded intake manifolds. I've been toying around with injection correction because of tapps 1000cc file with sem manifold. Although the injection correction map (FKKVS) should be used for nonlinear injector behavior and fuel supply variances so I don't know if he just used it to whip a base file up. I'm thinking I may see better results with the flowmeter correction map (KFKHFM) for that is where corrections in intake design.

Let me know what you guys may think. I'm seeing 1.72ms at idle of 800 @ a lambda idle request of 1.03(actual1.06) with 1000cc injectors but with o2 correction of -10% (LTFT's I've turned off in attempt to dial in injection correction). WIth my current dead time value ~1.22 at that votage it brings be to an injector on-time of .51. According to an online calculator the correct pulse with should be .552 to reach a lambda of 1 at idle.

So to sum it up:
IDLE Lambda request: 1.03
Acutal Lambda: 1.06(obviously correction overshot)
O2 correction: -10%
Injector pulse:1.72ms (logger takes sample of overall I believe)
Deadtime about: .93ms @ voltage of 14.22
Injection on time: .79ms
Calculated correct on time: .552ms

Does this indicate that I should use KFKHFM?
Note I have maestro so I'm limited to what maps I can use to make the proper changes.

I forgot to give my reasoning: I guess I could just apply the corrections to TVUB but I see on Tapp's base files that he seems to never change the calculated KRKTE or spec TVUB provided by INJ manufacturer. For this I believe FKKVS can be utilized but part throttle/cruise I can see corrections of +20% without being close to hitting target lambda. Instead of changing KRKTE would I be better off making changes to KFKHFM. Also can I get better results instead of straying from 1000cc GEN2 manufacturers Latency in TVUB make adjustments in FKKVS?

Id appreciate your thoughts. I've been reading into this for months, probably 30+ hours or more.... I'm smoked!

I think there are other places in ME7 that are more applicable; in particular, the ones dealing with intake volume and air mass inertia (and related to MAF signal delay etc).

I have zero experience tuning those maps, so unfortunately I can't give you more guidance.

Also, there is always wall wetting etc. if the injector spray pattern is very different from stock..

Let me get this straight, your entire injector calibration is done completely via FKKVS?

Regardless, every map has a purpose and should be used as designed.

It sounds like you need to start over on your injector and MAF calibrations and tune one peice at a time. I highly doubt your intake manifold is the problem.

KFKHFM corrects for intake PRE-MAF.

FKKVS is for correcting non-linear injector behavior which, if neccesary, should be mainly at low pulsewidths. Some injectors also have an upper non-linear region, but the injectors should be linear at part throttle.

You should be focusing on KRKTE, TVUB, and MLHFM.

What is the application? What is your MAF/intake setup?

Appreciate the input. I attempted Tapps approach to the 1000ccSEM80mmTB base file only multiplyer touched was FKKVS. Also a bit of KFKHFM up in high load/rpm. End result was crappy so I'm not sure what his reasoning was but there were major changes to that map we are talking 23% in the mid rpm/pulse width.

My setup is 1.8t 6speed golf, IE intake manifold (slightly bigger than SEM), Genesis 2 1000cc injectors, 80mmthrottlebody(already scaled), gt3076r 63ar turbo, APR R1 Diverter valve, v8 audi MAF (already scaled)

Reason for sticking to calculated KRKTE and TVUB is because I was afraid of throwing off calculated engine load.

After failure I decided to follow LTFT's to adjust TVUB and KRKTE (-6%,+20%). From calculated KRKTE of .032 to .041 and TVUB curve dropped 6%. WOT correction has improved. Part throttle cruise will fall in line once fuel trims adapt. Fuel trims after changes -6% and +4%. Low load part throttle (15-30% TPS) will show corrections of 15% slight acceleration.

Short 4th gear WOT runs
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529119_734582740219_461159962_n.jpg)

After KRKTE adjustments (seems like I'm shifting o2 corrections to rich down low the more I add to KRKTE)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529264_734644571309_502862492_n.jpg)

I'll post some more logs tomorrow hopefully I can rev it out to 7k this time.

You will probably want to do a 3d graph (heat map) of rpm/load vs stft...

032 -6%, 14% I havn't made any corrections to the file since last log. See what I mean about shifting o2 corrections?

LOGS
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/404665_734705444319_1766743202_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/164206_734705324559_1261046668_n.jpg)

what I'm currently using
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/603671_734706242719_1135501540_n.jpg)

What Tapp used in his SEM file with a calculated constant of .032 which is what I started with.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/73992_734706646909_46189833_n.jpg)

I need to use an updated version of Excel so I won't be able to give that until sometime tomorrow thanks.

again see if you can get a scatter plot or heat map after driving around a a bunch of different load/rpm combinations

When you say already scaled for throttle and MAF, what did you use to reference scale wise?

curious..

thanks

I believe the reason you aren't seeing success and even greater corrections is because your KLAF is not configured properly for your setup hence your negative STFT and positive LTFT. I believe your intake manifold is the problem as you have had well running setups in the past. Go back to your orignal injector constant and spec values. You should not have to sway far at all from your calculated injector constant. Attempt to tune your idle & low speed by adjusting KLAF while keeping a close eye on the calculated throttle angle along with KFWDKMSN.


Use FKKVS for adjusting your fuel AFTER you begin to see A/F's more inline and STFT&LTFT are both postive/negative. FKKVS is excellent for fueling needs but only if everything is configured.

edited for removal of wrong info on KFKHFM.

Its been awhile since I compared but I thought Eurodynes V8 MAF profile did match the bosch MAF spec sheet.

So much for Tapp's Semmani/hemi TB based Alpha N map.... All this time and I had no idea the alpha N (KLAF)had this much of an effect when the MAF is installed. Few logs I'm on my second calibration of the map and LTFT has been dropped to 9%. I literally had to add 20% from 2% throttle to 50%. Rev hangs are about gone and I'll start on TVUB. Your a life saver... Seriously I've been chasing this issue for a while now.

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/942410_738702129929_663523578_n.jpg)

Ok so I'm starting to get the fuel trims down to -7% & 14%. Part throttle acceleration in alot of places have been getting closer. BUT I still run into really lean spots at some throttle positions (closer than before). I've been using my maf data to correct these situations and doing a bit of math to determine in between spots for interpolation. I'm thinking adjustments in KLAF may have lowered my maf readings in some area's because I corrected these cells before based on actual maf readings. Values seem lower in some spots then before but you can still see that I'm going lean in thoughs area's even though values in alpha N are either way above what is read by maf.

Only adjustments made in throttle vrs airflow or KFDKMSN? Is on the axis that holds kg/hr of air maestro has a feature where it produces the correct values for this map based on what I believe is the average of all values per throttle position (each row). I didn't realize that the pedal positions may need to be adjusted aswell in KFDKMSN. At this point I'm not sure how to go about calibrating this map.

I'm thinking based on MAF readings and throttle position but as you can see if I increase throttle position value to 19% in KFDKMSN (highlighted in red on both maps) wouln't I go leaner? or are the auto generated values through maestro wrong. As you can see in KLAF the selected cell is way larger then the actual value taken from the maf.

Forgive me if I slip up somewhere I've been a bit exhausted from tackling this issue.

Alright So I've been tuning KLAF by tip toeing from cell to sell using maf readings @ a given RPM/Throttle position and interpolation to make a educated assumption as to what the estimated airflow should be... Although I've made progress to getting lambda target met, I feel like I'm starting to hit a wall. I still have 15-20% corrections in some areas such as the log I posted above. I feel as though I may be going the wrong way about calibrating  KLAF. According to Tapps description ,"Unfortunatlely these conditions are not the ones the engine will be operating under normally, so the values will not correspond to the flowmeter readings", so going off the actual air mass readings isn't going to help? Should I use o2 corrections to tune instead?

KFDKMSN is apparently used for help in determining the correct throttle position to reach desired load. This map I believe can be calibrated using maf readings based on throttle position.

If anyone can shed some light it would be appreciated I'm a bit overwhelmed with misinformation found on this topic and mentally drained from trying to sort out factual info in the matter.

Can you post a part number and data sheet for the injectors you're using, along with the TVUB in your current file?

Part number on the injectors have been rubbed off part number on USRT's website :INJG21000

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/65647_739002218549_1923460508_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/480336_739002852279_1381516770_n.jpg)


I can say that idle is -20%; part throttle is still 10-15% lean in the 1300-2500 range. From a cruise a/f will dip to .80 when throttle is let out. Not sure if Calculated engine load is off or if its the throttle maps.

First thing I would normally do is play with TVUB but I don't believe manufacturers spec should be off -14%. I'm thinking I may have to adjust my idle torque map because it seems off to me. That is if calculated load is correct.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/393121_739004284409_1231853058_n.jpg)

You're just chasing your tail without good injector data.

I feel like it was kind of a vague data sheet as well usually they give minimum pulse spec as well as multipliers to setup FKVVS

I see that engine load at idle hovers from 29-32% which seems high to me. I think that maybe my key to richness at idle because in part throttle load drops to 20ish in those pedal positions while cruising.

I've been playing more with the bvc and I'm beginning to suspect that the high engine load at idle is the source of the issue.... First -5% adjustment to BVC .71 lambda until o2 correction kicks in load is 32%. Second -5% adjustment to BVC leans it to 1.14ish until o2 correction kicks in but acts a bit quicker to hit target lambda with a engine load of 22%. I checked my target filling and optimal torque to see if those had any thing to do with it but nothing.
22% seems a bit more like it but why did the engine load change by lowering bvc?

you should be 17-20% at idle.

your MAF isn't scaled right, or you have some other issue that is causing your MAF to read high.

thats what I thought maf should be scaled properly throught the profile and I wasn't sure if maf readings were the go to adjustment for engine load at idle. I'll give it a shot. Also 13-16kg/hr didn't seem that high at idle to me although this would be my first time running this maf.

In this log I attempted scaling the start of the Flowmeter curve down by -2% and the end of the curve +1%. Based on the v8 audi MAF profile that tapp provided.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrIiqTVF0NKdHp6V3ptcVZBR2k1cmkzM2VqUGhfV1E#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrIiqTVF0NKdHp6V3ptcVZBR2k1cmkzM2VqUGhfV1E#gid=0)


I was going too lean at startup so I attempted scaling the beginning of the curve +1% No changes to the end. Although around the 880 from the 30%-10% load area I input a .97correction using MLHFM for load correction.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrIiqTVF0NKdGVnNnluVTFBNXFmcTdHcHNmeFpJOGc#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrIiqTVF0NKdGVnNnluVTFBNXFmcTdHcHNmeFpJOGc#gid=0)


As you can see there has been an idle hunt since I attempted scaling the curve.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/229720_740395296809_876462912_n.jpg)

I started out with Maestro's flowmeter profile for this particular maf. Tune was done using a similar setup to mine (Same maf part number, HEMI throttle, sem manifold- I have the IE intake, gt30ish turbo, 1000cc injectors-I have gen 2 1000's). I tryed using the base file even though seeing 20+ multiplier corrections in FKKVS/KFKHFM which seemed sketchy. Cold starts were rich, idle rich, WOT corrections were -20-+20% Calculated peak load was 160-170ish at 21-22psi.

I decided to start from scratch used stock FKKVS, KFKHFM, alphaN, KLAF and KFWDKMSN advise taken from Gonzo. I used MAF profile for my V8 audi maf(offset and curve) KFMIOP and KFMIRL from tapps tune Part throttle was alot smoother. Much better starting point. ALthough at idle I was seeing load vary from 27-32% which seemed off(lambda would stay around .8-.75 until fuel trims would kick in). Everything I've read so far has lead me to believe the load I should be seeing is around 10-18%(tuning books I've read). Fuel trims where around -9.8%, +20% after a cruise.

I've been trying to rescale my calculated load with the MAF curve, -1.95% reduction at the start and 1.9% at the end (if I use 2% at the end my W0T would go way to rich). I've gotten to these numbers to rescale by intervals of about .5% which ended up getting my load at idle to 15-17%. Only issue is warmup has leaned out 1.10-1.20 lambda until fuel trims kick in. WOT peak is now 185-187% corrections down too 10-14% (still high but lambda is hitting target

From this point should I use FKKVS to adjust TVUB? Am I going about this the right way?Or should I lower TVUB? Fuel trims after a 20minute ride would be -2.4%, 3%. Warmup idle has o2 correction/timing advance swings until  operating temp achieved and fuel trims hit those numbers. Should I be seeing o2 swings? SHould I be looking into adjusting KFMIOP? Fully warmed up the car will have a slight hickup every 30 seconds or so.

KRKTE-.032 which is calculated.

TVUB is manufacture spec.

Totally correct. Also note that IF you have installed a bigger throttle you have to recalibrate  throttle airflow in function of throttle position

I could understand adjusting the throttle vrs airflow (which I have done before and have resorted back to it because of odd random startup leanness). What I have trouble with is believing the problem is solely in FKKVS. Yes my injectors are nonlinear at pulsewidths between 1-3ms (total MS), no I don't have the multipilers for injector offset but will all this effect calculated engine load? Before rescaling my flowmeter the idle load was 28-34 (random occastions at warmup it would swing to 40%). Total pulsewidth would be around 2-3ms. Proper pulsewidth should be between 1.5-1.6 based on my Latency of .98 and calculated ideal injector pulse of .55 for 900rpm with these gen 2 1000cc's.  My load would max out at 160-170% at 21-22psi (which explained my overboost using n75 for control, I would see 30+psi).

After the rescale my load dropped to 22% (small hiccups in idle barely noticeable, warmup is still a bit rich and until fully warmed up the idle swings timing/load/lambda).

I'm not denying that FKKVS could be the issue I'm just trying to understand why.