NefMoto

Hey guys,

I spent a week or two reading up on EDC16 as I got two of my own cars with this ECU. It's pretty simple torque based model as far as I can see but there are still hundreds if not thousands of maps and every time I dig into this I encounter some kind of surprise.

Anyway people that know SOMETHING about this ECU seem to be very secretive. I am trying to find the right approach and "extend" this torque model for more power. I believe the right way of doing things is extending maps further to allow extra torque to be calculated instead of modifying existing calibration data. This will of course take longer to do but I feel it's the right way.

Now as far as I can see "Drivers Wish" map requests certain amount of torque according to pedal position and engine speed, this further goes to torque -> injection quantity table and then through various calibration (start of injection, injection duration, common rail table) and limiter maps until everything is calculated. Most of these maps seem to be pretty linear but none of them completely linear.

I am planing to "extend" most of these maps. Shrink down X axis to allow for extra axis points, interpolate existing data for these points and then extrapolate data for points outside of known data space. I used various algorithms for this and I think I found some that work pretty well.

My question is, what maps can be modified this way to allow for extra torque calculations? I know some of these are impossible to extrapolate correctly. Data is not linear at all of some reason and it's really confusing me. Does anyone have experience with this?

I will be posting today a binary of my ECU and addresses of maps I found so far. I don't know if I found all the maps I need but it's a set of around 30 of them or so. I kinda get how fueling works but I am still digging into air mechanisms and how lambda map works with all this. I am also still not recognizing maps that have MAF readings as an axis.

PS. more and more I learn about EDC16 more I am wanting to return the car back to stock and get rid of the "tune" file I got from a very respected tuner. :-/

The stock binary file and maps are here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4308.0title= (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4308.0title=)

Thank you for any contribution to this. I am for sure coming back with more question :-)

You can tune it correctly through torque model and smoke limiter...
Or you can tune it just with the nm->iq map and IQ limiters (italian fast food way).

As for extending maps - what car are you trying to tune that badly needs this?
VAG ones usually have enough reserve in the calibration, in that you can just do fairly quick tuning of increasing the torque limiters, closing the EGR and somewhat increasing rail pressure in the cruise area for better economy.
Some need mods to drivers wish as well.

LOL. The whole euro tuning community is so fucked up and backwards sometimes.

EDC suite.

Google it.

prj, imho I don't see the difference between the two methods. None of them are extending existing torque model, they are modifying it. Why would you "adjust" already perfect calibration that numbers of engineers worked on? Why not just extend it? This is MB E320 CDI, i just posted binary and maps I found in another thread.

ddillenger, this is EDC16, not EDC15.

Do you want more than 600 nm ?

Aurélien, I don't think torque figures in ECU are the same as in real world. Otherwise this car should be making around 550nm according to NM -> IQ table because 77.7mg/str at 1800 is well above 500nm according to the table. Correct?

IMHO you need to get some reading comprehension and actually pay attention to what is written!
If you want to inject more than the duration map allows for (also check SOI and rail pressure), then you can extrapolate the duration maps. Same goes for nm->iq map...

Is the car in question manual? If it is auto, have you checked what the torque limitation is from the gearbox?

Ah.

You have to understand the difference between effective and indicated torque, in the ecu.  ;)

Agreed.

prj, that's what I think of doing. Extrapolate instead of modifying existing values and pretending that it's going to inject X mg of fuel when it does more than that. It's automatic, 5-speed. I think I read somewhere that the limit is at 620nm or so.
 
Aurélien, I do understand the difference, isn't it what I wrote? Your question however leads me to believe that you didn't understand it. Torque used in the ECU is just a model. They could very well use any number there. But I do believe that from the start these numbers were meant to reflect the real world torque. Anyway according to ECU this car should make ~550nm of torque, it makes 500 according to specs so 50nm offset. So your question "Do you need more than 600nm" has no place. I do plan on tuning for more than +40nm of torque, yes.

Then we agree.

My question should have been " would you plan to request more than 600 nm "  ;)

Well, there is already a request for 600nm. This is however limited by torque limiter as far as I can see. I am still missing lots of maps I think. I can't see (or i am not recognizing) any MAF related maps :( I just found a couple of MAP based smoke limiters.

Any help with map hunting? I also have hard time recognizing axes sometimes (don't know what they are). This is my first file ;)

Instead of thinking and reading somewhere read limitation from ECU or TCU.

ECU has limitation set to 1000nm for all gears as well as single value gearbox torque limit. I can not read out TCU, no idea if there is any tool to do that over OBD2 and you have no idea what a nightmare it is to get to it on these cars. This is certainly one thing I am looking forward looking into. Would like to raise shifting points and modify torque converter locking values.

Anyway i am making lots of torque above stock right now and transmission is ok, have been for a few years now. We have yet to get to that part.

The torque limitation is visible in measuring blocks...

I couldn't find it with my diagnosic tools. There is only "current torque" block, nothing else torque related. I probably need to get my hands on real Star Diagnostics but these are pricey.
I am not gonna worry about this until i get EDC16 system figured. Ultimately I might be upgrading to larger C30 AMG injectors and might do something to turbo, i am definitely taking DPF off very soon. I already closed down EGR (will be blocking it soon physically) and disabled fwirl flaps opening/closing (i am going to be taking them out completely too).

I need to focus on indentifying all maps. Can you help with this? It's in my other thread! :-)

Thanx

Your ambitions are great, but realistically your autobox will be the one that will break first.
You don't even need bigger turbo/injectors...

And once you hit the autobox torque limit, you will have to cheat the torque model anyway.

prj, asked a friend and he said that theoretically there are two types of 722.6 transmissions. Limit on one is 340nm and on the other is 580nm but no one knows for sure. Handfull of people have looked at TCU!
Kleemann claims 280+hp and over 600nm of torque with their diesel boxes. I guess we will have to see. I am not worried about breaking the box. Same transmission is inside 420 cdi and e55 amg with some stronger torque converters.

The trans requests max. torque over CAN.
Unless you can flash the trans you will have to cheat with your requested torque figure anyway, and edit nm->iq map.

any help with maps and tuning instead of steering away conversation? :-)

I just tuned one of these the other day, I have better things to do than to look through someone's binaries and find maps for free, when I have others pay me to do it, sorry.

Okay, fair enough! Totally understandable that you don't want people to learn because it would mean competition for you. I respect that.

So far I learned that there are handful of people in the world doing this stuff properly. I very much doubt that you are one of these people so i would be very careful when i draw a line to stopping contributing to public communities and learning from them. I very much doubt you have any inside access to Bosch systems so public forums are the only source of information for you.

Good luck to you! ;-)

Learn? So me spoonfeeding you all the map locations is learning now?
I'll go through you binary and find the maps you want - for a fee, no problem, wouldn't call that learning though, would call this retarded when a damos for a very similar ecu is floating around.


I think you should be careful with what you assume. You know how they say assumption is the mother of all fuckups?
You just want free handouts, and when you do not get them you resort to insults. Good luck with that attitude.

Absolutely not. I put Mercedes on hold and started working on Passat. I have access to VCDS which gives me ability to log a lot better. I think I found most of maps but more I do this more I have a feeling that absolutely EVERYONE is just guessing this stuff. There are 3 sets of 12 SOI maps + 2 limiters. Real SOI nightmare haha

There is a SOI selector and you can see exactly which map is used and when.
There is also EDC15 and EDC16 funktionsrahmen available, which detail how this works and why it works that way.

Just because you are guessing it does not mean that everyone else is.

Yea I know about selectors but what about whole sets of SOI maps? Why so many? One for each ECU coding? How is this being selected? Many questions. Anyway I posted some addresses to my other Passat thread.

The same ECU can be used for manual, automatic, quattro, fwd and so on.
The maps can be repeated one or more times. The map set is selected based on ECU coding.

Cool, very logical. Do you know if there is any selector and how I can know which map set is used for which coding? Replay in Passat thread so we don't clog this one :P

There is a selector for SOI based on engine coolant.

And a selector for duration based on SOI ( and sometimes 2 selector... But you have to read a bit EDC15/16 FR an go through damos :) )

Yea as I said I found some of these. Look here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4322.0title= (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4322.0title=)