NefMoto

Hi Guys, Wondering if anyone has had a similar issue.

Have removed the manifold flaps. Have RS4 injectors and a GTX3076 Turbo. Fueling is all ok once warm. LTFT and STFT ar at about 2%.

Have tried raising the warm up enrichment tables with no luck.

Any ideas?

I bet that you haven't calibrated well the injectors lag. It is common issue with RS4s and cold start

Did you removed the flaps operation from software also?

Yes removed the flap operation with no change.  What table do you mean for injector lag?

Anyone?

You have 3 posts in this forum asking only.

You will not find anyone giving you directly answer

So whats the point of this forum then? Im part of many forums. I provide a huge amount of knowledge to others learning, but it seems like its hard to get the favor returned on a forum im not regularly apart of. How sad!
I guess i will have to look elsewhere.

Are you having starting issues or running like crap after it starts?

Hi, only when the car first starts. Everything was fine but removing the manifold flaps with these injectors isnt going to well. Once the car is warm its perfect. Although i need to fine tune injection angle. Thanks

combustion differences, fuel pressure differences, injection angle differences

make sure you remove the flaps properly as well :) 

I need not touch cold start fueling at all for perfect start with HEP manifold on RS4 injectors

Hint:  Look at the RS4 file a little bit and study LBKSOL, RKTI and AWEA in FR to understand what you need to do. 

As Fotis said, few other discussions on these forums in the past you should look at, and it should all tie together and make sense then.

Hi Rarak,

Thank you for your kind reply. I will check the RS4 files out i have and look at the other maps. I may have missed turning off 1 codeword for the manifold flaps. CWALBK, CWBGLBK, CWLBK is off. Maybe i also need CDKLBKP to be set to 0 also.

Ill report back soon.

Ok so lowering the injector angle tables by -5% was a great start. All cold start misfires whilst driving are gone. Just got to work on start up a little more. Lambda etc looking great, forgot to lower my rail pressure in the early rpm range compared with the K04 turbo so that got rid of some black smoke too.
:)

This is what I say Ben. I like to see people in progress! Now you start learning on these, keep up the studying and we are here to provide help.
If we gave you direct answer then you will not learn!

Also you have to make the ECU understand that your TFSi is not equipped with flaps anymore. You are doing this correct!

For RS4 tuning as we said in other threads, if you have fully understand D.I. engines and if you have all the necessary maps in MED9, then it is so simple to fix them as a tranformer :) All info about injector characteristics there are in RS4 ori file, as Taylor said also

cheers,
Fotis

Thanks Fotis,

I am happy with how the car is running now, thanks for the help.  i cant seem to get rid of the Runner flap fault code though, have turned everything off and still get it.

Question..... why use RS4 injectors when S3 injectors have abhigher flow rate and have the correct spray pattern??

Rs4 injectors appear to run richer than what you actually think they are, this us due to the fuel not burning correctly and getting lots of it out the exhaust ports.... then your lambda tells you your running rich.....

Simple way of looking at it.... how many cylinders does the rs4 have..... and the engine size..... then calculate the rough max flow you need for the bhp that engine produces..... you'll find that the flow rate is much lower than what would be required for that of a 2.0 4 cylinder turbo.

Additionally I believe conclusion testing has been performed on the physical injectors proving the above mentioned.

Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?

RPM plays a large roll in injector sizing. As engine speed increases, the injection window decreases necessitating more fuel in a shorter amount of time.

From all of the real world results the RS4 injectors can simply flow more fuel. There are no test around that prove otherwise. People have done tests but did them wrong.

Once the injectors are tuned correctly like i now have them they work great. No black smoke, good burn and good results.

You have the right end of the stick if it wasn't a direct injection engine :)

You lost it mate, you lost it.... You are 101% wrong
RS4s are quite bigger than S3

The point is WHY VAG decided to install that big injectors in a low power cylinder 55hp/cyl instead of 62hp/cyl S3 2.0TFSi

The answer is because they spray for a shorter time. If you know where to look in RS4 .bin then you can see injection starting and closing angles.


Now installing the RS4 in a 2.0TFSi isn't an easy job. For proper fixing you need to recalibrate more than 20maps and of course the injection angles.
Why smokes like a diesel?
Why is lean in lambda and my tail pipe smokes like hell?

All these WHYs are solved with the proper tune of the RS4s

I have spend over 1 week to make them work perfect and what I can say is that they are excellent injectors for the 2.0TFSi for turbo upgrade with no any issues if you know what to do.


Where starts the problem and when the tuners looses all the game with these injectors is because they have no idea what a Direct Injection system is and how it works. Also they don't know how the Direct Injectors react and how they lag.


I am tired saying all the time, buy the Blue Bosch book and read first and then work with MED9


Some extra info
RS4 and power output
480hp @ 130bar
520hp @ 140bar
560hp @ 150bar
600hp @ 160bar
630+hp @ 170bar

I am working with special fuel pump and special PRV at 175bar with RS4s and we got 625hp @ 2.5bar ct boost with an PTE 6262

Is this incorrect?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4991112-Stock-vs-S3-vs-RS4-injectors-SOME-GOOD-INFO

Injector flow rates
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min

Thanks for the information.  They do say that you learn something new every day :)

Those numbers are garbage.

theres only a handful of sizes of these DI injectors ever made for OEM applications.

These injectors are only available in step sizes as well so oem is size 1, s3 is size 2, rs4 size 3 :) do some research and you can find the answer of what they really are!

correct

And what about the different "spray angle" ?

The RS4 spray angle is designed for RS4 engine's pistons surface and the different injectors seat position
Of course this angle is wrong for the 2.0TFSi engine but with the forged flat pistons it works fine.

A little black smoke from the exhaust but almost undetectable, in WOT condition, is acceptable.
You can also avoid this but you will miss a lot of effective injection time which means less capable hp

After a lot of testing and weeks of R&D I decided that this is the best injection angle profile!

Great knowledge shared by great people here.

I do not even have RS4 injectors but it's still been good to learn these facts. :)

Great response and info once again from RaraK & hammersword. Thanks guys.

Once warm up injection angle is tweaked you get pretty good cold starts. Then the other injection angle tables  help reduce the black smoke to near nothing. Small amount on WOT.

I should mention i have flat top forged pistons. Previously with OEM pistons and RS4 injectors the car looked like a diesel truck from 1964. :)

Good work :)

I've got to say I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on this forum. I just started attempting to tune using Eurodyne Maestro and I have not found so much good info as this thread has. I am also running rs4 injectors but I am far behind you guys, still researching what most of you say to get a full grasp.

Another issue with Eurodyne is that the maps are very limited. I had asked Eurodyne to add the injector angle map for my ECU to Maestro, but no such luck yet...Does anyone know if he is on here, or better yet does anyone here have significant pull with him?

Thanks guys :)

Martin

Chris Tapp hates us.

^ hahaha. I dont directly get the joke but i get it, if that makes sense.

re: the previous poster. Im not familiar with Maestro. This forum has been a big help to me. It takes a lot of reading and understanding on how the direct injection engine works to make the correct adjustments. It seems a lot of people are starting to you RS4 injectors on the 2.0tfsi platform. I will do a separate thread on big turbo 2.0tfsi builds soon to try and help out others and hopefully i ca get some more help in return.

Is that because you guys actually know what is going on and can criticize maestro for being petty software?

I bought Maestro because I knew jumping into code would not be possible for me, so I figured mess around with Maestro, learn a bit, reevaluate the need for different software.

That would be appreciated greatly! In the mean time I'm going to keep putting pieces of the puzzle together, this website is awesome :)

Last i tuned a mk5 bt with maestro, he had the injection angle maps, and cold start maps, mostly what you need for an ok rs4 calibration. this was a MK5 file base file though, not sure on his other offerings(b7, 8p a3, etc)

Unfortunately they aren't available to the b7 yet...emailed him a few times still waiting for the maps to come through.

Well after many hours messing with this and looking for help in every corner of the galaxy, I finally figured out how to fix this to where the car runs perfectly. You just have to find a spare manifold to replace the flappers that you cut up, and then re-install the flaps. Cold starting is perfect now, and no difference in performance. Well at least the only difference in performance is that it runs a lot better now! :)

EPY

Thank you for this information hammsword.
I am in process of tuning rs4 injectors and this saves time. I have eurodyne with a mk6 R and this information helps greatly.