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Title: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on July 17, 2014, 05:59:39 PM Hi all,
As some of you may remember, ive been DIY tuning my mk4 golf me7.5 1.8T with k03s and forge actuator, with the rest of the spec pretty much as good as it can be. Anyhow, been dialling in the boost with the actuator over last couple days and got to a point where I can get 20psi and hold it pretty much across the revs with the boost. However, now I am getting a misfire/throttle cut? on peak boost (This is below the 2550mbar limits of the map sensor... Its about 2300-2400mbar on graphs made with ecuplot.) Having had a look, im a bit unsure whats causing it....only thing I can think of is fuel, which has the occasional random value richer and leaner, but im not sure 100% thats causing it. The pump is a uprated drop in tank version. My plugs are gapped to 0.7mm and they are NGK R BK7RE - a very popular plug over here in UK for tuned 1.8Ts. Ill upload a copy of my log files if you can spare a minute to cast a eye over them and maybe spot something im missing. THe file tagged goodlog is a good run with no misfire. One tagged misfire is a run with the misfire before the car dropped into soft limp mode. Many thanks in advance Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 17, 2014, 07:38:18 PM Your RPM data is super bumpy... maybe a bad pickup? It could be triggering misfire recognition...
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 17, 2014, 07:49:32 PM Hmm actually my filtering isn't working because you are using an old version of ME7Logger that has timestamps in a stupid format... maybe update to 1.20?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 17, 2014, 07:59:16 PM Ugh yea your time column is a mess :(
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on July 17, 2014, 10:41:33 PM Hmm actually my filtering isn't working because you are using an old version of ME7Logger that has timestamps in a stupid format... maybe update to 1.20? Filter works, it's a 4th gear log.... And I agree, it's fucked. Things going backwards, etc. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 17, 2014, 10:58:38 PM Filter works, it's a 4th gear log.... eerrrr sorry. I mean the RPM smoothing function (built in, and somewhat hidden)... i have a fix for ME7L 1.17 timestamps but it will have to wait until the next release. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 18, 2014, 03:44:25 AM 4th gear log. Never knew there was a newer version of me7logger. Will have to get it downloaded and try that. Are you able to bring any graphs up from
those logs? Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 18, 2014, 10:03:02 AM Yea, but I can't find anything obviously wrong.
so probably coilpacks, plugs or ICM (errr... maybe you dont have those hehe, dunno) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 18, 2014, 10:14:37 AM Going to look into those next. Gapped plugs to 0.6 from 0.7 and going to see if that makes a difference. Going to log misfires on each cylinder see if I can narrow it down.
Did you see the random lean and rich spikes in one of the log files? I couldnt work out what they are and what caused them... Also, lambda satrts off pretty high on one of the logs? Not sure if I included that? Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on July 18, 2014, 10:17:33 AM Misfires cause lean readings. I would bet those spikes coincide with your issue. Start logging misfires.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 18, 2014, 03:40:34 PM Seemed a LOT better tonight with the smaller gap in plugs. Nice strong boost. Only occasionally felt like it dropped off 5500rpm+ in gear but changed gear and spot on again, so will look into that.
Did seem a touch fluttery (if thats the right word to use) sometimes on peak boost, but im not sure whether thats the actuator controlling boost or something. Wasnt like a surge or wavery like you would get with dead N75 valve. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 19, 2014, 11:05:03 AM Only other thing thats bugging me is why the engine load requested and corrected arent following my specified engine load through LDRXN.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/engload.jpg) Ive attached my file to see if you can spot anything that would cause it. Thanks Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 19, 2014, 04:16:36 PM Only other thing thats bugging me is why the engine load requested and corrected arent following my specified engine load through LDRXN. Reread the FR (and the tuning wiki for that matter..) there are many, many many different things that go into requested->corrected. There is a reason it is called "corrected" Also, as an aside, the latest ECUxPlot parses older timestamps (ME7L 1.17) correctly now. Might want to download it. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 19, 2014, 04:24:15 PM Thanks, will have a look over the FR and see if I can spot anything....personally, I dont think its a bad map for a total beginner to tuning. Car certainly feels pretty lively through the revs.
Got myself the latest ECU plot and me7Logger on my PC and logging netbook now so bang up to date with that side of things :D Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 19, 2014, 04:26:24 PM Thanks, will have a look over the FR and see if I can spot anything.... I guess my point is there is nothing wrong with req != corrected... don't try to "fix" it. There isn't anything to fix, unless you want to dick with KFTARX Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 19, 2014, 05:27:43 PM Probably whats causing it to tail off then. Left untouched. ill try get a good 4th gear pull tomorrow and see where things are.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 20, 2014, 04:25:14 AM Got myself a good 4th gear pull. And the logs backed up my thoughts of dropping boost after 5500rpm. Looking at a 5psi drop from 15-16psi to 10psi. Wastegate Duty including before and after linearisation is showing the drop, so would appear something else further up the PID is dropping off causing the drop in boost - unfortunately bit beyond my basic knowledge at this time.
Ive included the log showing the issue. Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction so I can try get my head around and understand the maps further/higher up in the LDRPID. Only other likely cause is the KFLDIMX axis which I have set up as: 0hPa - 0% DC 800hPa - 0% DC 900 - 42.5% DC .... 1000 - 42.5% DC .... 1100 - 42.5% DC .... 1200 - 42.5% DC .... 1400 - 42.5% DC .... 1500 - 42.5% DC .... Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 20, 2014, 06:55:32 PM Please log these:
Code: ldimn_w ;{BoostPID-I-Min} ; {Aktueller Wert zur Minimalwertbegrenzung I-Anteil LDR}also just need a snapshot of these (don't need a full log, just one sample) Code: ldimxa_0 ;{BoostCorrectFactorPID-IRange1} ; {Adaptive Korrektur der LDR I-Regler Maximalwertbegrenzung}Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 05:04:08 AM Made a change to my kfldimx axis to begin at a lower hPA, will go out and give that a log when laptop has charged up a bit. Also added the above variables to my logs, I guess they show the results of the maps higher up in the LDRPID. What do the correction factors ldimx_* allow you to look at?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 05:39:43 AM Changing the axis fixed the boost drop off.
Logged those ones you wanted a snapshot of and looking through the log, they change numbers at different RPM points. Ive uploaded the file as you will know what to look for. :) Thanks Chris Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 21, 2014, 05:42:01 AM Made a change to my kfldimx axis to begin at a lower hPA, will go out and give that a log when laptop has charged up a bit. Also added the above variables to my logs, I guess they show the results of the maps higher up in the LDRPID. What do the correction factors ldimx_* allow you to look at? I max adaptation Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 09:23:30 AM You're going to need more DC via KFLDRL
In any case, you are the limit of your turbos and you're requesting too much boost. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 10:21:32 AM Always knew of be at the limits of the turbo top end. K03s isn't going to produce a great deal of boost at too end of rev range.
Strange how I see duty is 95%. IMX is set at 75% top end I believe with a linear kfldrl so unsure how it's going up itself. Do any of you know the addresses for kftarx? Tried to copy it over by matching things up with a full ols of a 018cb but it never works out right. Aside from the turbos being on the limit, does everything else look safe? To me fuelling is following specified afr, and timing correction factors are low, which should give me some room for timing advance to add in Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 10:27:09 AM Strange how I see duty is 95%. IMX is set at 75% top end I believe with a linear kfldrl so unsure how it's going up itself. I max adaptation, possibly. There are a few other things that go into the i-limiter as well (including KFTARX as you already mentioned) Quote Aside from the turbos being on the limit, does everything else look safe? To me fuelling is following specified afr, and timing correction factors are low, which should give me some room for timing advance to add in before going any further please make sure your ldr deviation isn't this terrible... especially once you reset your i-limit adaptations. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 10:36:01 AM Thanks, I'll try get the kftarx map correctly addressed up in my map pack.
Must be one or two maps I've missed, is some are also having an affect on engine load corrected; which should be up out the way whilst I tuned boost. What should I be looking for in regards of the ldr deviation? Guessing a lower number is better. I'll have a look over the FR see if I can see the maps that's goes into to I part of the pid. (Getting complicated now for me haha) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 10:37:56 AM What should I be looking for in regards of the ldr deviation? zero. Quote I'll have a look over the FR see if I can see the maps that's goes into to I part of the pid. (Getting complicated now for me haha) You're overthinking things. Stop requesting too much boost, and lde will be zero. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 10:44:56 AM Thanks. As I said, I raised the specified boost up out the way so there was nothing stopping me tuning my duty cycle to get the boost plot I wanted to aim for. I should be able to bring my requested engine load back down to a level just above the actual engine load. Would this bring the LDR adaptions back into check?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 10:54:34 AM Thanks. As I said, I raised the specified boost up out the way so there was nothing stopping me tuning my duty cycle to get the boost plot I wanted to aim for. I should be able to bring my requested engine load back down to a level just above the actual engine load. You're actually not really worrying about spec load. You should be tuning LDRXN to result in sane boost request values. ALWAYS set your req boost to what you want. There is no reason to set them out of the way, the whole point of the PID is to get boost to match req. Quote Would this bring the LDR adaptions back into check? Once lde is zero, yes. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 11:13:45 AM Sounds good. Thats roughly where I want the boost to end up (what im actually seeing now). I can see there might be a small window to add a touch more on spool between 2750rpm and 4000rpm, but looking at the actual figures, theres only really 200mbar of boost left....so thought its not worth bothering with as under different loads, it can sometimes change (hence why im now using 4th gear to tune as 3rd was proving a bit troublesome in higher gears if you remember my other threads).
Scaled my ldrxn to a few points above the requested boosts on the plots I took today. Ive included a pic. Hopefully that doesnt get it the way, and is enough the sort the LDR-adaption out. Even though still probably only a very basic tune, its really enjoying working with the data you log, and working out where you can improve, and what differences it does to the car. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 11:21:26 AM Scaled my ldrxn to a few points above the requested boosts on the plots I took today. Ive included a pic. Actually, that is definitely one way to figure out what you want spec load to be... just set it to actual load from your logs, if your boost is right :) But keep in mind the calc method can be pretty far off, and the relationship between spec load and spec boost isn't the same as the relationship between actual boost and calculated load. Hope that makes sense... Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 11:29:36 AM But keep in mind the calc method can be pretty far off, and the relationship between spec load and spec boost isn't the same as the relationship between actual boost and calculated load. Hope that makes sense... Is that from looking at it as "spec load * 10 + 300 mbar" theory thats wrote into things like the wiki? I originally set my plot up to that, after working out roughly what PSI I thought I could run....however that soon turned out to be pretty far off the mark. Guess a small increase in displacement and a well flowing setup will mean less load needed by engine to make the boost desired. Even from looking at logs of other stage 2 cars with similar turbo/intercooler setups, mine seems to be making the same boost levels pretty effortlessly: - which I guess is always reassuring. Might have misread your comment with that above comment from myself though. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 12:12:25 PM Guess a small increase in displacement and a well flowing setup will mean less load needed by engine to make the boost desired It isn't that. It is because ME7's load->boost calc is very, very, very complex. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 12:35:47 PM We wont get into that then lol.
As long as I know the tuned file is safe, and isnt going to cause any knock/lean or anything else bad, then that's my main priority. Now the boost profile is 99% done I can look into timing maps. Is there much that can be done in terms of leaning out the fuel mixture to get a touch more power..or is it best to remain where I am at. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 21, 2014, 12:38:13 PM Post up some more logs with the refined req boost and i'll do my best to give suggestions.
You're doing great so far! Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 12:44:28 PM :) always reassuring to hear. Thanks!
Ill get some logs tomorrow with the LDRXN I posted above. Tweaked LDRXNZK to suit the 15% reduced power as normally suggested. Hopefully that works out spot on, cant see why it shouldnt. Only other thing....is it normal for that much timing to run top end? 24* seems quite a bit, especially when you hear most people aiming for 21* up top. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on July 21, 2014, 04:15:19 PM Is it normal for that much timing to run top end? 24* seems quite a bit, especially when you hear most people aiming for 21* up top. With low loads, yes. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 21, 2014, 04:25:36 PM Thanks. Ill aim to try get a about 2-3* added onto the load sites im seeing from the logs. (keeping it nicely smoothed into the other areas aswell either side) Lots of logging and adjustments I reckon.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 22, 2014, 09:41:31 AM Well had chance to run the car out with the capped ldrxn above the actual engine load I was getting through logs and was less boost. I was seeing about 4-5psi less across the revs than with the ldrxn map flatlined. You can see it in the attached file with 131618.csv. Found that pretty strange as the max load map is above what the N75 should be controlling the actual engine load I got through the logs.
Also managed a run (not to redline) with the timing ive added on with the load map flatlined at 200. That log is 133536.csv if you want a look at it. Looks to be pulling 4.5-6CF from 5250rpm. Dont really want to be going over that I dont think. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 22, 2014, 03:12:06 PM I'd pull some timing up top and bump i-max, or adjust ldrl..
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 09:42:23 AM Raise IMX to meet the boost I want it to?
Will boost pressure still go above max engine load set through LDRXN though? Looks like I might have to have another look at my boost maps then. Is there any serious downside to leaving it with the max load set well above what it is actually producing? Hopefully with the addition of water meth it should control timing a bit more too, as should a nice colder day, been scorching over here recently. 25C+, not handy to tune cars, pleased the FMIC is doing a good job. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 23, 2014, 10:04:50 AM Raise IMX to meet the boost I want it to? You want lde to be zero, as I said before. Quote Will boost pressure still go above max engine load set through LDRXN though? Again, you don't care about max load. You want lde to be zero so the PID doesn't have to trim. If it trims, the car's behavior will change over time, and you will not like the results. Quote Looks like I might have to have another look at my boost maps then. Is there any serious downside to leaving it with the max load set well above what it is actually producing? Stop. Worrying. About. Load. :P Get lde to zero. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 10:26:26 AM Got you :P
Why does the boost become lower, yet the max load is still above the actual engine load when the car is boosting fully at 20psi. Thats what im struggling to understand at the moment, Duty cycle should still follow the I and exit kfldrl in the same numbers as it enters, so in theory, it should still boost the same PSI, as what it does with max load flatlined. Guess it all gets calculated in a pretty complicated way. So now I just need to fiddle IMX until the car boosts where I want it to boost, a touch under ldrxn as I plotted out before. Just trying to get my head around it in a way I can see/understand fully myself and see whats going on. Thanks for all the help so far - learnt a fair bit :D Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 23, 2014, 10:35:03 AM The PID doesn't care about load. It cares about lde. STOP HYPERFOCUSING ON LOAD ALREADY.
You only care about setting LDRXN to get your req boost where you want it. That is ALL, nothing else. Once you have that done, and you like your req boost, you need to tune the LDR PID to have actual boost follow req boost. In the steady state, wgdc (pre lin) will follow I max, but only if lde is zero. If you have a lot of underboost, in steady state, the P proportion of the PID will add to that. In your case, the severe underboost was causing the PID to add a bunch of P to the wgdc. I don't know how many ways I can say this. Get lde to zero, stop worrying about load. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 10:40:45 AM Cheers. Ill focus on getting the boost back up to where it was before via IMX.
Will the ldrxn I posted on a previous page still be ok or will it need a bit of tweaking? think it was about 5-10 above the data I got from logged from memory. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 23, 2014, 10:42:32 AM Cheers. Ill focus on getting the boost back up to where it was before via IMX. Will the ldrxn I posted on a previous page still be ok or will it need a bit of tweaking? think it was about 5-10 above the data I got from logged from memory. You could always just ramp I-max or LDRL up to 100 at redline and see where boost ends up... At this point, though, i'd really look at a compressor map and see why you have to run your turbos at 100dc. Either your wg isn't holding or you are WAY out of the turbo's efficiency range. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 10:54:47 AM Already running 75% from 5800rpm and 79% at 6500rpm in IMX.
Looking at the boost pressure desired vs actual. If you do a WOT run, will the ECU get the boost to the desired then adjust WGDC to hold that line steady? Looking at the pic, my desired boost has fell on previous logs (where I capped LDRXN - which was still above the actual boost I was seeing in the logs like I shown in previous posts.) . Guess upping the desired boost is a case of raising LDRXN to get where I want it. Think im confusing myself here a bit now. lol Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 23, 2014, 10:57:02 AM I suspect that at redline, there is no difference between 50% dc and 100% dc with your setup.
But yes, the purpose of the PID is to get actual to meet req. In fact, that is the purpose of all PIDs :P Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 11:25:04 AM Upped the LDRXN plot to get boost where want it (desired) Done that using the 10*(LDRXN)+300mbar trick. So that should get my desired boost where im seeing on the logs. Which I then hope will allow the ECU to use the IMX graph I have set up to get that boost and not bring in any LDR-adaptions. In theory anyhow. Will need to flash it on and get the car out from behind the other 2 on the drive and go test.
Just seems wierd having a LDRXN set that high, but if thats the way it has to work, thats the way it shall be lol. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 23, 2014, 11:49:43 AM Done that using the 10*(LDRXN)+300mbar trick. Again, that is a ballpark approximation. Logging req boost will tell you if you are close. If you want to know what to put in LDRXN, you can look what req load a given req boost corresponds to... it won't be exactly right but it will be much more accurate than 10*load+300 Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 23, 2014, 12:19:21 PM Yeah, get what you mean. Dont really have the right data to work that out as all my previous runs have been flatlined ldrxn and been too far out to see exactly whats going on in terms of that. Bit of a process of elimination when I have a ldrxn map that might be somewhere near with the rough 10*load+300 figure.
Will give it a go and report back. Hopefully its a step in the right direction. :) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 08:33:04 AM Well capped my load through LDRXN and still pretty much the same. Boost is pretty much how I want it. 19psi on spool (because of the overshoot in higher gears) and 20psi held after 4000rpm roughly.
The plan of bringing LDRXN down to get the boost pressure desired kind of didnt work :( Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 09:25:25 AM Believe me, try harder. You want lde to be zero or you are in trouble.
You do not want that much positive deviation. Pick one: bring your req boost down or your actual boost up in midrange. Up top, you have to bring your req boost down regardless, since you are maxing your dc. I'll help with getting actual to match. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 09:46:06 AM Not giving up just yet!
New ldrxn is in picture. Worked out looking at actual boost and plotting where that lands up on the axis on the engine load graph. Will give it a try - hopefully it doesnt do what it did last time and pull all my boost back so I was under by about 4-5psi. Chris Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 09:51:25 AM Either way you probably want to bring up I max.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 09:52:08 AM Will go log that LDRXN now, and then see what I can do with I-max. Ill be back in 15minutes lol
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 10:16:59 AM Looks a lot better in terms of LDR-adpation. Nothing over 1.1 now so definitely coming down. Could probably tweak IMX now to get it to follow the requested load. Might be worth dropping it a touch more 6400RPM+ as right up top end boost actual seems about 8-9psi.
Looks a lot better in my eyes tho. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 10:20:30 AM Don't worry about load. Concentrate on boost.
lookin really good now though. you're close! Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 10:26:02 AM Raised my IMX up roughly 4-5% from 4500rpm onwards. now 82% from 6000rpm and 84% from 6500rpm.
Will the bit on spool matter, or just midrange? Maybe worth dropping sub 3500rpm down a couple points in LDRXN? 27-34c Inlet temps are pretty high. Weather app on phone shows 24c here - so a pretty warm day - especially for england hahaha :D Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 10:34:47 AM Raised my IMX up roughly 4-5% from 4500rpm onwards. now 82% from 6000rpm and 84% from 6500rpm. Will the bit on spool matter, or just midrange? Maybe worth dropping sub 3500rpm down a couple points in LDRXN? 27-34c Inlet temps are pretty high. Weather app on phone shows 24c here - so a pretty warm day - especially for england hahaha :D Don't worry about LDE during spool, at those RPM ranges there is no I adaptation... in fact, if you have req boost follow actual too closely during ramp, you'll give up spool because DC won't be 100% anymore! Go ahead and bring in LDRXN early, just make sure you don't run into pos deviation limp during spool. Make sure DC stays at 100% until just before actual meets req. You can be pretty aggressive.. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 10:43:37 AM Brought it down roughly 4 prior to 3500rpm and smoothed it out so it doesnt look sharp and spikey, should still be high enough for turbo to still be spooling in that area. That with the bit extra up top as I mentioned should have me pretty much bang on getting it to follow requested boost.
Looking at the timing from that log, seems within tolerance from 4800rpm upwards, so could probably get a bit midrange dialled in sub 4800rpm. :) Not entirely sure if ive logged all the timing variables in my logs, but doesnt seem to be any interventions getting in the way either - but thats a whole different story lol. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 12:57:00 PM Done another change like I said and the adaption gone back up :S yet ive lowered things.
Following specified spot on now though, right up until ~6250rpm where its overboosting and ECU kills throttle off the get it back in check. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 01:52:03 PM I'd flatten out I-Max from 6000 on up (make it smooth) and have req boost follow the results.
or, alternately, let i-max continue up to 95% and have req boost follow the results... I really think your imax is moving around too much (way too low at start), you really want to keep it more or less flat (or a simple shape), or the PID will do ugly things... it has a bunch of odd knees, which you really want to avoid. get a smooth i-max, and see where your boost ends up. Set req boost accordingly. A smooth wgdc should end up with a nice smooth boost profile. If you are struggling to get boost to follow req by making imax do weird things, odds are your req boost doesn't make sense. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 02:06:24 PM Thing is, ive never set WGDC to 95% top end, top limit was 79% in IMX and a linear LDRL. Guess the PID was adding extra on because it was seeing the underboost from a desired boost too high.
Reason I started the IMAX low was because the max load was flatlined, so was controlling boost that way through duty cycle. I guess now I have pulled it down to where it should be through desired boost, I can raise the early stages of IMAX. Im just not 100% sure how I should alter IMAX to get to where I want it. I understand you want 99% duty cycle keeping the wastegate closed on spool, so maybe I could add that until 3000rpm on my setup. Then pull it down to 60-70% duty through the midrange tapering back up top end where k03s is struggling to keep going. Something a bit like ive attached below. Im not 100% sure tbh. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 25, 2014, 02:57:34 PM TI understand you want 99% duty cycle keeping the wastegate closed on spool, so maybe I could add that until 3000rpm on my setup. Nope, you don't need Imax to be 99% during spool. During spool the P keeps DC at 95%, unless your LDRXN is too low. Again you do NOT want your i max moving around. You have no way of knowing where to drop imax from 95 to whatever, since actual boost might meet req boost *at any time* depending on when you hit the gas, etc. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 25, 2014, 03:07:43 PM Ah, I understood that wrong then.
You dont happen to have a example of what you mean by any chance do you? :) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 30, 2014, 05:45:11 AM Any ideas on what you mean by keeping my imax flat?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 30, 2014, 09:37:35 AM I mean don't have it woggling around all over the place. Keep it simple.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 30, 2014, 12:17:57 PM I-max should be the DC required to make the input plsolr for the majority of the rev range.
Keep it smooth or even flat, as in, if you plot the points up the RPM axis it should be a line. LDDIMXN gives head room and KFLDRL takes care of any non-linearity. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 30, 2014, 12:29:32 PM So raise the early stages of it upwards so its more (in line) with the higher duty up top. So instead of 43% up to 3000rpm, make it 60% for example. Am i right in saying that?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 30, 2014, 01:55:42 PM Are you asking a out KFLDIMX?
You want I to accumulate up to the duty cycle required in steady state, so yes go straight there. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 30, 2014, 02:01:11 PM IMX yeah. Will raise the early parts of it and hope it brings things back into check.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 30, 2014, 02:32:06 PM Lets put it this way. Look at the stock IMX. It doesn't do weird things.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 31, 2014, 06:28:03 AM had a quick look at the standard one for a k04 (albeit im running a k03s turbo) and can see through the midrange how its a bit more smoother with a nice flowing curve to it.
Without changing individual load sites too much, ive come up with this, Ive ignored the 95% on spool as my current 45% was enough to give me the boost pressure i want... So ive gave that a limit of 65% which it should never really hit if the PID controls spool elsewhere. Probably still looking at it wrong but surely if the IMX values are higher than the actual duty needed to hit the desired boost, ECU should use however much duty is required to hit that and make it smooth itself? Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 31, 2014, 07:38:43 AM That won't work very well.
I will over accumulate. It should be the exact DC required to make plsolr_w. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2014, 09:02:34 AM Am I the only one that swaps the axis on DIMX?
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 31, 2014, 09:11:23 AM Am I the only one that swaps the axis on DIMX? Swap it how? Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 31, 2014, 09:18:30 AM That won't work very well. I will over accumulate. For some reason his setup requires a ton of WGDC. It actually looks reasonable to me... Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 31, 2014, 09:27:49 AM Just a little overview of setup.
1.8T bored out 1mm (82mm JE 9.25:1 pistons) Rods Ported manifold Standard turbo Forge Actuator - yellow spring - about 10-12psi cracking pressure Free flowing intercooler pipework with large core 3" downpipe into custom exhaust. Duty seems pretty similar to my last setup but running me3.8. log attached showing duty of that (only VCDS as all I had at the time) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on July 31, 2014, 09:48:02 AM Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on July 31, 2014, 09:52:55 AM For some reason his setup requires a ton of WGDC. It actually looks reasonable to me... Same DC for all boost requests? To view it. I set all my tables up to my preference. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 31, 2014, 10:05:14 AM Same DC for all boost requests? Ah. I was referring to in comparison to what he had before, which was a bunch of crazy dips in the last row (highest plsolr) You are, of course, correct. He has way too much I for the lower plsolr areas. My mistake, did not look closely. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 31, 2014, 10:13:18 AM What am I needing to pull back then? not too clued up with all these PLSOLR abbreviations yet :P
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on July 31, 2014, 10:18:37 AM Compare the shape of your IMAX to the stock one...
You say you don't know what plsolr is... what do you think the other axis of that table is? Hint: do NOT alter a table unless you know what both axis are. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 31, 2014, 10:25:43 AM I knew that hPa was boost pressure, just wasnt exactly sure (without looking at the FR) what plsolr was.
I guess instead of altering each individual RPM column, I need to alter individual load sites instead, which is going to take a pretty long time I believe and a lot of testing. What I tried to do was keep each RPM column the same duty, and make the whole chart linear and smooth. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on July 31, 2014, 10:41:33 AM This is what I have currently.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 03, 2014, 04:17:12 PM Going to give this one a try later on today, so hopefully it will add a touch more actual boost on spool up (not that I need it due to traction haha) and hopefully smooth out those nasty adaptions
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 05:06:14 AM Todays log. See I now have overboost from specified boost on spool. WGDC% curve looks pretty smooth from what it has been.
Still getting those boost adaptions though. Fine tuning this is getting a bit tricky haha Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 09:02:11 AM That actually looks really good.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 10:03:13 AM Even though the PID is pulling back through those LDIMXA_* variables?
Hopefully going to sneak it onto a set of rollers tuesday/wednesday if i can find time so can see what its putting out. Timing correction factors seems to have pulled themselves back a bit aswell. -3 is my highest from 5000rpm. 0 before that so plenty scope for a touch more midrange timing. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 10:51:15 AM Even though the PID is pulling back through those LDIMXA_* variables? Considering your log, I have a tough time believing the PID is doing any adaptation, unless that is post adaptation. Does it look like that on the first run after clearing codes? Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: phila_dot on August 04, 2014, 11:38:57 AM Considering your log, I have a tough time believing the PID is doing any adaptation, unless that is post adaptation. Does it look like that on the first run after clearing codes? Just browsed the csv on my phone, so I can't offer any real advice, but ldimxak_w is populated in his log. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 11:45:59 AM Just browsed the csv on my phone, so I can't offer any real advice, but ldimxak_w is populated in his log. Indeed. (http://nyet.org/cars/images/ChrisGolf_20140804_125339.png) Doesn't seem like much corrections though... Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 12:02:59 PM Havent cleared codes but have flashed a newer map on, so not 100% sure if that will clear fault codes.
Added 3* timing onto certain areas of the log, which has pulled the adaptions back a touch. See this log attached Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 12:07:12 PM Havent cleared codes but have flashed a newer map on, so not 100% sure if that will clear fault codes. It does in ME7.1, not sure about your ECU. Looking REALLY good dude. Seriously. Well done. Get that car to a dyno! Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 12:16:06 PM Will see what I can do :) id like to see where its at too.
165 g/s which equates to around 207bhp using the rule of thumb gs/0.8 method. Feels more than that when driving it. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 12:28:21 PM Time to do some K04 action son :)
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 12:29:19 PM Thats the job for over the winter. k04-064 onto my 1.8T...however, i think ill leave that one to the pro's to map haha.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 12:34:05 PM Thats the job for over the winter. k04-064 onto my 1.8T...however, i think ill leave that one to the pro's to map haha. Are you KIDDING me? You did a great job with the K03. I am 100% confident you can do it. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 12:47:48 PM we'll see, much harder to log 350+bhp than it is to do 250bhp without the use of a rolling road.
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on August 04, 2014, 12:48:07 PM Are you KIDDING me? You did a great job with the K03. I am 100% confident you can do it. +1 Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 01:30:30 PM Thanks both of you :D
Be nice to tune the wmi on this one aswell. Can probably get a touch more timing on it and let the WMI pull it back out when active. Just a shame this one doesnt spit a flame on liftoff like my last one did running me3.8. You could get 4ft flames on demand with that, just by tapping the throttle. Be nice for an occasional pop on downshift though. :P Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 01:31:05 PM we'll see, much harder to log 350+bhp than it is to do 250bhp without the use of a rolling road. No way. You need LESS road :) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 01:36:49 PM haha, true, but you also end up going a LOT faster. Doesnt really phase me providing the conditions are safe (on a nice long private farm track... lol)
also got the 610cc injectors to scale in aswell on the new one. So would need to dig out the data for those Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on August 04, 2014, 02:03:15 PM haha, true, but you also end up going a LOT faster. Doesnt really phase me providing the conditions are safe (on a nice long private farm track... lol) also got the 610cc injectors to scale in aswell on the new one. So would need to dig out the data for those How do you figure? If your gearing doesn't change, you will be going the same speed at redline with either turbo-lol. It just takes less road to complete the log! Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: nyet on August 04, 2014, 02:03:42 PM haha, true, but you also end up going a LOT faster. Doesnt really phase me providing the conditions are safe (on a nice long private farm track... lol) 6500 rpm is 6500 rpm, regardless of HP :) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 02:15:17 PM True, but usually a k03s is on its rear end by 6500 rpm so a gear change is needed. I have a raised limiter on my map, but most pointless thing ever. If I can pull hard to 7250rpm on a stock head and 7500rpm on a uprated one, thats a bit quicker :P
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: ddillenger on August 04, 2014, 02:46:43 PM True, but usually a k03s is on its rear end by 6500 rpm so a gear change is needed. I have a raised limiter on my map, but most pointless thing ever. If I can pull hard to 7250rpm on a stock head and 7500rpm on a uprated one, thats a bit quicker :P A K04 will not pull "hard" to 7250 I'm afraid. Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 04, 2014, 02:53:04 PM this ones off a 2011 golf R, from the plots ive seen, they are holding near enough 21psi to redline. I know itll start to feel less 'pull' as revs increase, but itll be a touch better than this k03s lol
Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 05, 2014, 07:09:48 AM Pretty happy with the power. Bit more timing and hopefully should get some more torque on it.
Getting there slowly with it now :) Title: Re: Misfire on WOT - peak boost Post by: carsey on August 07, 2014, 05:07:38 AM Any thoughts? Would be nice for a bit more lower down torque, which I should get by timing lower down? Would making it a bit richer in them areas make more torque too?
Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 09, 2014, 03:27:35 AM Got my methanol kit wired in yesterday, managed to get a log today in the dry. Now got a big overboost which has be about 10mbar from the limits of the map sensor. Ive got a log with meth on and meth off.
WGDC% is far less with the meth on. Seeing about a 40mbar difference in boost pressure desired across the whole revs. Got me stumped :( Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 18, 2014, 10:35:18 AM Hi guys
Bit update. Still getting a huge overboost, which looks like its over 22.5psi so map sensor plays hell, engine starts to misfire and everything starts screaming at me and flashing. Ive no idea how I can stop my boost pressure from keeping boosting, yet the specified boost is well below the actual. Id have thought that the boost profile will follow that of the desired, but mine doesnt :( Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: nyet on August 18, 2014, 11:04:47 AM wg line is torn.
Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 18, 2014, 11:07:00 AM im fairly certain its all ok, its a upgraded piece of silicone.
Maybe my N75 is on its last legs? Just checked: WG pipe is fine. no leaks. Which line is it meant to follow on pictures? Guess its the load one? Is my specified load too high? Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 20, 2014, 07:46:40 AM Well this isnt right.
N75 plugged in and unplugged get the exact same graph (near enough) Somethings broken somewhere :( Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: ddillenger on August 20, 2014, 08:32:48 AM Check the line to your wastegate. It's probably been swiss cheesed.
Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 20, 2014, 09:23:16 AM Broken
Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 22, 2014, 04:46:42 AM Fixed.
Just a bit tweak to make on the area around 3-4000rpm where boost holds then increases and sort the intervention out at 6250rpm where engine load gets too high and throttle gets cut. But looks a lot better now. Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on August 22, 2014, 07:04:41 AM New log with a tweaked LDRXN.
If I could sort that actual boost over desired out, it would be spot on. But I guess 21-22psi isnt too bad for a k03s. Title: Re: Chris tuning thread. now running meth - overboost :( Post by: carsey on October 11, 2014, 10:30:35 AM Just to wrap it all up as cars now off the road waiting to have its engine out and new goodies added....burst coolant pipe rubbing off top of gear linkages finalised its fate in coming off the road.
Anyhow.....good power today. Got the torque back I was 'missing'...got this back by timing added to the bottom end. And top end nice gains off the water meth. (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/3-1.jpg) (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/2-1.jpg) (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/1-3.jpg) Might even have a go mapping the TSFI turbo in too with those results. |