NefMoto

Hello all. Im building together an rs4 with oem rs6 turbos with 16psi actuators. I have set them to pop around 7-10 psi.. now the noobish question :)

I have now flashed it with a stock "k" file, and started it. If i get it right,in me7 boost is a result out of requested load, how do i get lower boost as a starting point? I mean, these will take more air, and i guess i will get high maf values at "low boost" if someone likes to chime in, thank you

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6030.0 (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6030.0)

Thanks man. I will study this

If we would implement the video to Me7 maps.
Which maps exactly would we use in right order?

Okay, so i have some trouble getting this to work, i have gotten it to pull at wot but at part throttle it "hesitates" and dumps pressure (sounds like it opens the bypass).

It has oem rs6 turbos with 16psi actuators, base-boost with n75 off is about 2000mbar..

The tuner that helps me, says i need to loosen the wg's but that would be a pita!

Oh, and it cuts off at around 6000rpm, just like a rev-limiter  ???

Any gurus, feel free to give advice if you like to  :)

Well there's your problem. We need less talking, more logging!

Haha! Did I write that?? I can post some boost logs, don't have any of dc yet i think but can log that tomorrow..

I have boost and maf logs, will post them as soon as I get to my laptop!

Boost and MAF is not enough.

Get a real log, not some VCDS crap.

Okay, Will try to get one of my cables work with me7logger or what ever tomorrow

ME7Logger or bust.

You have spent hours reading, getting nefmoto working. ME7Logger is the single most important part of the tuning process. Don't just try. There is no other option.

Youre right, spent a lt f time at this. I will get it to wor tomorrow, its like 1am over here now! Me7 logger it is =)

Couldn't get my ross-tech cable to work with me7logger, at first i got the library.dll fault, then i installed vcp drivers and set it as a virtual com.

That didnt work either, just got the "echo test failed" no connection code. Guess I'll have to buy another cable..

Uncheck boot in intelligent mode in the vcds options menu.

I have done that, didn't help.. I made the definition file and everything, would really like to get this to work!

Beside that this is a F Box file and not K like stated in the first post, I can't see anything changed that is related to the problem.
Who did all the other changes? You or your tuner?

I'm sorry, i changed to f-box after that. The file i posted there was base file by my tuner. He didnt touch tany pids so i had bad overboost issues.

I managed to tweak wgdc and lower ldrxn and got it to follow requested up to 5000rpm, then it started creeping. I have tried tweaking pid maps referring to s4wiki without luck. Im on my phone now, so cant post any logs right now..

The worst issues right now is it limits the rpm at 6000, it does it even when n75 disconnected so it cant be bost related.

In base boost it holds 1850 all the way until it cuts @6000

And i have flutter in light load, some throttle angle stuff im trying to undestand..

I will get a new cable, and fix me7logger and post asap!

I hope you didn't pay money for that. Some stuff in that file like the changes to knock recognition make me shake my head.
What kind of hardware changes you are running exactly on your RS4?
Modify KFVPLGU like described in the link I posted und you are done with your flutter. It's not defined in your ols but can easily be found when compared to K Box.

I would recommend to start with a stock file and do only modifications that you understand (maybe compare your tuners file to a stock file because not everything is crap that is changed).

I also wondered why he would do changes to knock..

I will check the KFVPLGU

Right now the only mods are rs6 turbos, exhaust and fuel pump.

When i get that setup working i like to change injectors to get more out of it.

Thank you so far, will try to understand this myself and tune it little by little.  Than i know more what's going on =)

Props to nefmoto !

Had som suspicions on both my map, and maf sensor. Had an old map from s4 With different nr than RS4. Ordered a New rs4 map from Bosch.

Also I had an s4 maf sensor in a housing which i made to be 83mm, but after som Research i found S4 uses HFM-5-8.5 sensor, and RS4 HFM-5-9.7

So ordered a New rs4 maf from Bosch too. The diameter from airfilter is ø83mm but measured outlet is actually ø82mm

This was just for info, if any interest

 ??? So is this an RS4 or S4 converted to RS4 hardware?

It was an s4 converted to widebody/interior and everything except for the engine and gearbox. I have bought and built an rs4 azr engine now, and bought all piping, hoses and whats different.

The only thing s4 now is gearing, but thatdoesn't really matter to me.. Gonna try new sensors now, and a new log attempt

The gearing matters because if you want to do it "real right" you have to change the gear detection for 3rd and 4th gear in the RS4 software  ;)

Yeah of course  ;) hehe. But really, it isn't that big of a difference that it would detect the wrong gear?

Otherwise, fixed my boost/maf sensors today. That made a difference, and the issue with it cutting off @6000 was oil temp rev-limiter. Read out 195 degrees in vcds. Guess theres a cable missing or something.. changed all the values to 7500 but it didn't help, then i noticed the scalar only went to 145c in my .ols so i searched in hex and changed all values to 30000 (7500rpm) and it worked :) i'm only @1bar now, butit pulls 340g/s

Me7logger with new cable works, but it can't connect to ecu. Fault 4 i think it was. Tried only in slow rate

Now it's running fairly good. Haven't got the logger to work though, tried With a New genuine ross-Tech cable but it cant Connect to ecu.. Nefmoto flasher cannot Connect either, but it finds the cable and everything.. I can flash the car With mpps, kessv2 or whatever and VCDs Works also, so I have no Clue whats the issue.. tried to unplug radio, cluster, abs etc without Luck.

I have only shitty vcds logs now and checked it With innovate wideband. Also having trouble With one of the coilpacks, it's misfiring if I crank the load too much. Now I have it at 2300mbar up to 5500, and ramping to 2400 to redline, then it holds the spark fine. Not sure if I should Upgrade to tfsi coils, or just buy New ones..

Really would like to get a decent logger to work when i get New coils, I have no knock-retard and afr is around 11.5 so It's drivable. Airmass dont know, since VCDs only shows like 364,8g/s

on ECU file change to Connect      = SLOW-0x00

that do the trick for me

Thank you, but I have tried that too  ???

only left you run a direct K-line from ECU to obd conector

I have thougt of doing that also, hope it helps. Can i try With the ecu on bench first? Just to see if it will work

So put the ecu on the bench and it started logging right away.
Threw it back in the car and tried pullig a wire in parallel from ecu to obd without success. Then i cut the k-line at ecu and obd connector and made a straight wire. Next issue then was no epc light and no start... i have immo off, tried pulling the dash and it starts. Will try tomorrow to start it and then pull the k-line

I have read this base boost KFVPLGU etc 100 times now, but im just too stupid to get it! :-[

I really need a kick in the rear here, should i calculate a ratio from the axis to Stock/New spring pressure or from the z-value that exceedes PSPVDKUG?
I'm really tired and feels real stupid here so any help would be very appreciated :)

Bigg issues With hesitation and chopping in part throttle...

Attached is .jpg of KFVPLGU
 
From wiki;

"Look for the values in the table that start to exceed the threshold of PSPVDKUG, and trace up to the vpssplg_w axis. The pressure ratio minus 1 bar at this column should be your stock wastegate pressure (3-6psi). Take the ratio of this pressure to your new wastegate pressure, and multiply it by the vpssplg_w axis. This roughly sets base boost for proper throttle control. You can further tune this table by making sure areas below the spring pressure of the wastegates stays below the value in PSPVDKUG."

That definition doesn't look right to me.  You should definitely do a compare to a file that you know is good and fix that before making any changes.

KFVPLGU starts at 15946 in F Box and looks like this

(http://i60.tinypic.com/j7pzew.jpg)

Just modify it like described by erroob0977 in the other threat and you are done.

Oh, that makes much more sense!

Big thanks guys =)

My bad, KFVPLGU I have set up like this, and I have modified it as euroob described. Posted the wrong acronym yesterday... Sorry.

It's KFVPDKSD (Attached) I'm struggling With, does that make more sense to you? :)

Thanks

There should be no need to change anything further than KFVPLGU if set up correctly.

If there is still a problem you have to post logs to see what's going on.

Okay thanks, it's got better after I modified it, but far from good..

I will post logs as soon as I get the logger to work, it only Connects to the cable and logs With ignition OFF ? Very weird..

What about KFWDKMSN and KFMSNWDK ? No need for throttle-mapping either?

If you use the rs4 throttle body then no.

Changing turbos one should always log msndk_w and mshfm_w and adjust WDKMSN and MSNWDK until they match.

Somebody should add a section to the tuning wiki to that effect :)

So should you if you change your MAF or every component that alters the VE of the engine if you want it perfect (even on stock verhicles you can improve it because of the individual variability of each throttle body).
But that is one of the last steps and for people who know what they are doing and understand how everything works together.
Everybody else will chase its tail by modifying everthing at once.
With stock MAF and throttle body you better concentrate on other things.

This^^ is what I thought too. If it's right or not, I dont know thats why I asked :)

My thought was if WDKMSN and MSNWDK is dependent on air-mass at a given rpm/load then a bigger turbo would draw more air at lower pressure and there must be some kind of adjustment for that.

I will log this, and compare it to these two and apply New values if it differs a lot.

It's gotten much smoother now though, changed my lambdas and the twitching is gone because it was very rich at light-load, but the hesitation is still there under spoolup at light-throttle.

Props to this forum and you guys, wouldn't made this without s4wiki and the members here :)

Must get the me7logger to work though..

msndk_w and mshfm_w are not the correct values to compare.
Have a look at BGMSZS and try to understand why.

I will check it out and see if I can understand it.

In progress of TFSI Conversion now, because my ignition system didn't like load a lot. So waiting for parts, and work in between that has been slowing my progress down a bit..

Finally got me7logger to work. Found an old galetto clone that had 232 chip and built it in under the dash with a switch for cutting off rest of the k-line. Works very well.

So.. Here's a rough log, its still on oem 490cc rs4 injectors but it doesn't feel that fast until nearly 6000rpm up to 7000

You are having some kind of intervention.
You are boost overshooting and having throttle cut after 5750rpm. Checked for leaks???
Do some Reading how to take proper logs. And try again.

Overshoot is from dc needs a littlle bit of massaging. This is not a 100% ready file. I have pressure tested it, didn't find any leaks. Have noticed the throttle intervention bu no idea whats causing it.. The logs work for me, so not sure what you mean? But i will do some reading

You just need to log more variables, but not too many.
Look at the new thread about stage 1 tuning.
Guys have posted list on log variables.

Two things out of this log

- I don't want to sound like a broken record but you are sure your base boost pressure is correct? If it's really 1bar @higher RPMs your WGDC is way too high. That's why you have big boost overshoot.

- Why is your desired lambda @ 0,8 at low loads?

Okay, thanks. I will take a look at that.




I have about 0,9bar With n75 unplugged. Tried to modify the base map as you showed me earlier because I have a part-throttle hesitation and the pressure builds up way to fast in part-throttle.

Will go through dc settings, they are a bit high...

About low lambda at low load is something changed in the file that i can't find. It drops the afr to mid 12's and mileage is really bad. I can see in 2d and map-preview that there are made changes that i dont know what is..

Guess I will take a fresh Stock file tonight and og from there

The 0.8 lambda was lamfa axis issue. It runs much better now, and learned a thing or two on the way  :)

Haven't been playing so much with this car lately, but made some tweaks today and it's much better now  :)

No throttle cut like i had before because of a bit of overshoot. Pulls much harder now, and it's smooth in part throlle after tweaking KFMIOP and KFMIRL

I see 3kw in ign retard, this is kinda normal right?

Happy days, next step is ev14's, any suggestions on that?

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/airmass_zpsddbad571.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/boost_zps2badfbd5.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/theoregt_zps4d24bc56.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/load-throttle_zps72ea6827.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/retard_zps35b93e56.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/o2_zps8a21a0d0.png)

You should probably use 5120 ... do you have a boost gauge and a wideband?

Guess 5120 is the way to go later on. yes, gauge and wideband is installed. Pretty sure the rs4 injectors is at their limit now..

what is the calc Power and tq?

Don't remember exactly what it said. Think it was around 520hp/680nm

I don't really believe in that number because it differs very much in conditions and so on..

Had to cancel the tuning yesterday, because of a brand New MAF decided to die.

New 1000cc injectors and MAF are on it's way now

That would be Bhp not whp?
Power does varie depending on amp pressure, iats.. So is it for everyone :)
You get a nice middle estimate.

Yes, that is bhp est. Would like to see someone make that in whp on standard injectors :) You are right that you can use it for the same car on the same road for comparison.. Im pretty happy that it goes this well at all as it is now. Try to dial in big injectors this weekend, and hoping to get the fueltrims right so i can start make some power :)

I am running ev14 1000cc on RS. Shout out if you get trouble

bhp != crank hp either.

bhp are completely different units than HP (CHP or WHP)

Oh, okay.. Thanks. Did you manually dial them in? How did you come up With the values like KRKTE an so on? I think i'm in need for a good starting point :)



Sorry, crank HP, meant that.

I did it manually. Used old tune value as start point, but it was way off. Logging and making changes bit by bit.
Pm your setup.

I see. That's what I was prepared of doing..

I will pm you the specs of the car

Got the 980cc in, and made a quick tune for winter etanol. E70-75 ish.

Restricted to 1,5bar of boost but I think it's enough for the winter.

It stopped making power at 18degrees ignition at that boost, so I left it there.

Have no clue if this is any good at 1.5bar, but itt pulls good.

Made 3.12 fats (s4 transmission)

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/e70pwr_zps2b56b7d0.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/massaire70_zps2c911206.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/evmse70_zps04516f3e.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/e70ign_zpsf623dfd1.png)

That timing is too low even for a petrol.
Is this an RS or S engine? CR 9.3 or 9.0?
I boost 1.7-1.5bar and have 22-34deg timing on Ethanol
You are not even close, there is ton more power there :)

Its full rs engine AZR with rods, inconel valves and springs.

If there is more power available at this boost level, no one would be happier than me :) Strange that I had the same torque/power on 20 and 18.

Maybe try to bump ignition more next time? You also know we are  on winter blend now, not sure how big difference it actually makes..

Maybe consider this a decent base? :)

But 18 degrees at full power on petrol? Are  you serious? Mine starts knocking and pull timing way earlier than that..

I will attach my latest log tomorrow.
You gotta advance it really aggressive as rpm raises.
Your curve is almost flat after peakload.

Logs would be nice. Thanks, I appreciate it.

There is nothing to advance on pump gas at this point.

He is on ethanol not pump.

(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/K04RS6_zpsf4e3cb0a.png~original)

Boost is 1.7 - 1.5bar

Oh, that's quite agressive. It's well over optimum angle map.
Nice numbers there, i see you have Cold iat too. Cold outside?

I will not go over 1.5bar for now, but I can try a rework on timing and report back the results.

What AFR are you running Mocke?

KFZWOP/2 is optimal ignition angle at lambda 1. It's not the optimal ignition angle on Ethanol.

That day was a 0deg C and 1019mb pressure.
Perfekt day for god numbers, :)
I am aiming for 11.8 afr.

Did your car gain torque for every change the Whole way up to where you are now on timing? That's kinda sick. We have two e85 racecars, and they are at about 24 degrees

Ahh I see, so now we also need a weather station at home  ;)

No, it did not, BC it is very hard to duplicate same conditions twice. You can do a run, get logs, reflash and do a run agin in an hour, and your car is heatsoaked resulting in 5degC higher Iats.
It changes everything.
Don't be scared RS engine can take a lot of timing.
You are really low in timing.
Tips!! Ethanol knocks when runnin too rich.

I see that. I will try higher timing now. You have almost double of mine :)

Thanks for the tip, didnt know that!

Hehe
Nobody remembers a chicken :)

Hehe :)

I'm having some issues, it restricts me to 20 degrees for some reason  ???

How does it restrics you?
What is happening?

Its not timing pull, but i cant see more than 20 even if i have raised timing maps higher.

I found one mistake, i had lower values in KFZWOP than in the two ignition maps! Corrected it now.

Flashing........

It was mainly the optimum angle map that was interfering I think. Tested just to increase mostly on top for now, and it works :)

Have to go to Germany rest of the week, but i will tweak this more when I come home!

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/my_log_20141124_215756_zps1c73fed8.png)

KFZWOP has no bearing on timing request.

Thats strange, bc I only got 18-20 degrees even if i requested 28.
When I changed KFZWOP to be higher than timing req, then i got 24-25 degrees.

What do you think is holding my timing back then?

Tweaked it more and got some more timing, and a little massaging of AFR. This will due for the winter I think.
Maybe try a 5120 hack in the sprig and get som more boost.

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/pwr_zpsed387812.png)

Nice, it is getting faster i see.
What is your timing and AFR now?
Does`t lean up top?

It sure is faster now :) Timing is higher, it differs a little from pull to pull though.. Starting at 18-20 ish and is max 29-30 degrees.
Sometimes I get weird timing corrections at like 3500rpm, but not always. Guess it can be fine tuned.

AFR is from 11.6 and maybe 12 at leanest, Didn't notice any trend of it leaning up top, but I also have a little bit of a richer request for safety. and massaged my kfkhfm to get fueling ok up top.

Do you have issues With top leaning?

I don't know if i will make much more Power now @1.45bar boost

I do. Nothing of the limmits thou. Got moar boost :)
As said, it is Winter. I will redo fueling next spring.

Ok. Think that's quite normal that it does that.

Problem is I don't have 5120 hack and map sensor, so Limited on boost. On the other hand, this is quite safe Power :)
Not really sure at which Level my fueling is maxed out. The surge-tank With 044 in engine bay sure helps, but not sure how high it can go.

What are you'r plans for fueling?

I will just tune it all over again from scratch.
Got a lot of compensation now and my Maf is under scaled.
Worst case, dual in tank and new lines and fuel rail.
The last will certainly be done if I decide to get bigger turbos.
Have just sent couple turbos to get TTEed :)

Damn Mocke, I just compared my latest log to yours and found two graphs being psycho similar! :)

Peaking 2500 and @ 2450 til redline. And yes, it really moves :)

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/wtq-whp_zpse558695a.png)

Hehe, with your turbos, you got plenty left.
 Mine are done. Just let them loose all the way man. :) What is your FATS?

I want to :), but I dont know what will happen if i go over 1.5bar without the hack. And how much should I boost it? I want the turbos to hold also, maybe not more than 1,7?

Latest FATS was 2.83 and I have s4 tranny

I Think your fueling is gonna be out of control.
1.7bar is not much for RS6 turbos. I make 2.5Fats on RS tranny, we make about the same power. It pretty much ads up.
You can increase it to hold 1.55 all the way without a hack.

Okay, I can try 1.55 all the way for the winter. Maybe try hacking it in the spring.
Not sure I can log it on higher boost now because of slippery roads. I had to do several attempts at different locations last time to get it not spinning out
It does ad up pretty well. Do you think i will need to lower my timing, increase boost and then add timing again til it stops making tq, or can I leave it at 30 degrees where I am now?

yes, it is almost impossible to log these days.
Timing is highly dependent on your AFR. Increase your boost to desired, if your AFR does not change, wich i think it should not ( you had surge tank and 2 pumps??). Just leave the timing as it is.
If you have too much timing in some load cells, you will clearly see huge drop on your TQ curve at that load/rpm cell. Just lower it a point and power gonna bump up again..
I got logs showing just that, i can attache later.

We'll see if its possible to log it, Really dont need more power right now because of traction. But on the other side, what's the fun in that :)

I have the pump in the tank feeding a surge-tank with one 044 in the engine bay, sitting 0,5 meters from the engine with a straight an-6 into the rail.
It has not showed any signs on leaning yet, but I guess time will show.

Would be really nice to see your logs on that phenomena. That was exactly what happened to me, I Raised boost a little bit within the limits and I got a big drop in mid-range. Lowered ignition by 2 points at that rpm range and it bumped up again like you said. Now I have a dive in power after 6250 and I will try to lower ignition up top too now and see if it helps there as well.

Attach log, plz.
I am not on the right computer now. How was your AFR? Did it change anything at that load/rpm?
You can battle that Power drop either with a bit more fuel via FKVVS with same timing or same fuel with less timing.

This is just pics from tq drops. The first picture is from before I lowered timing in mid-range and the second is with the drop up top. I will try lower timing up top to see if that helps
Its creeping over 12afr in midrange after spool now but settles at 11.8 up top. Guess I will try to add some fuel via FKKVS

(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/tqdropmid_zpsff14852d.png)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/WestfarmRacing/tqdroptop_zps86891332.png)

Did you gain any Power?

Havent tested it yet. Its freezing cold and Ive been eating and drinking the last days for some reason ;)
If the traction is okay, maybe i flash it tomorrow and report back

Yeah, i go a nice revision myself waiting for traction :)