NefMoto

Hi!!

If i change the fuel injector per larges models, what i need to change in ECU file? its just FGATO or have to change more things to adjust the fuel on idle?

I just change the FGATO value, i down 30% for use 550cc (originals are 190cc), i need to change more?

when hot (70°C/90°C) the engine dont starts if i dont press the thorttle a little!

when you put larges injectors, what you change?

please help-me, i have this problema a lot of time!

wait

thanks

what ecu you are talking about?

Tvub for duty cycles .

No.

Sorry.i thought I had it right.

FGATO??
You do mean KRKTE? That is what you should be making change in.
Do you have WBO2 installed?
There is some good explanations on this forum about setting basic fueling.
Take your time, and Do not skimp on this.
It has to be done right!!
GL.

Guys, you forget. Not everyone has ME7 here. There are quite a few DBC models that get discussed :)

It does not say what car it is or ecu.
That may help :)

my ECU is Bosch Motronic M3.8.2 (ECU file 128kb)

I've made ​​attempts to change TVUB and Minimal injector opening time but dont have good results when engine is hot!

Whats the original injection time on idle of passat 1.8 20v ADR aspirate? maybe its impossible install a 550cc fuel injector on passat 1.8 20v! The idle injection time necessary is small than minimum works injection time of 550cc injector!
whats the proportion of FGATO? if i decreases 10%, the fuel flow will decreases 10% too or is other proportion? For example: if i need to increase the mixture for more fuel in mixture in 35% i need to increase FGATO in 35% or in other proportion?

In M38x/M592 and other old ECUs, that Motronic functions you mention are:
1.- FGAT0 is Grundanpassungsfaktor 0 or main fuel injector multiplier. Normally you can adapt it using this formula: New fuel constant = old fuel constant * change in injector size where change in injector size is old injectors (cc)/ new injectors (cc). This constant modifies every fuel injection variable, constant or function in whole ECU. For my knowledge tuning these ECUs with bigger injectors than 440cc is not easy.
2.- TEMIN is minimales TE or minimum fuel injection pulse width. Use the right value allow you fine tuning idle with big than OEM injectors.
3.- TVUB is Spannungskorrektur known as Fuel Injection Battery Voltage Correction, Injectors Latency or Injectors Dead Time. It is the battery voltage compensation of the injectors (response delay with differing battery voltage). It could be adapted for different than OEM injectors to obtain best performance and time response possible.
I hope this info helps you.

hi, thanks for your post

when i change the TEMIN, i dont see diferences, but when i change the TVUB i saw diferences.

my ECU model have a specific map for injection by temperature? the problem is just when the engine is hot!

wait

TEMIN is the minimun injectors pulse width. It is valid for example for idle or deceleration calculation.
TVUB is factor for injection calculation based in battery voltage variations.
ECU injection map by temperature is KFFMLTA (Gemischkorrektur durch Luftmassenstrom und Ansauglufttemperatur).
Regards,

i dont found the KFFMLTA, and i need to found because the problem is just when hot... i decreases the TEMIN around 55%, i dont know whats the idle injection time of my passat, if is 4ms, the minimum that my injector suports are 1.91ms, i can decrease the injection time in maximum 50%

wait

in 1.8 20v is better to use 440cc or 550cc injectors with GT25 turbocharger working with etanol and 250/300hp?

I will buy soon a Audi A4/A6 V6 2.4 or 3.0 (2002-2005)... the ECU of this car is better then M3.8.2 and more easy to found maps etc?

Why when i search per KFFMLTA in Nefmoto i dont found anything, dont show this post...

any words that i type in "search" dont show any results!! have a problem here!

i dont know whats the KFFMLTA map of my M3.8.2

i dont found other ECU models maps to compare... nothing!

who knows the address in my ecu file of KFFMLTA (i believe that its solves the problem!) or post here a picture of your car map, i will found comparing the appearances.

please help a noob!!!

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6522.10

Only result I found :)

Use google for searching the site. It work very well!

My advice is to use 386cc or 440cc injectors maximum. 3Bar FPR will be enough. Bigger injectors could be used but needs good patience and knowledge to set it up correctly. Main concern is to adjust or setup injectors properly (if you haven't change MAF). For that turbo size, just adjusting injectors size you have almost all work done. Are you converting an NA 1.8 20V engine to turbo?

Remember that turbo maps are different than NA maps. If you are going turbo why don't you use a turbo ECU. I haven't checked wiring loom or harness differences between NA & Turbo, but seems to me that can be used with it proper sensors and minor mods.

ddillenger and eliotroyano

i dont found anything about M3.8.2!

can you open my file and search for me the address? if you have time!

have a map to control the opening thorttle in idle? because if i the engine dont stat when hot without open the thorttle is why have to enter more air in the engine for start!

the pulses in injector when start are diferente of the pulses when the engine is working? i say... have a way to control this pulse in start to decreases the injection time just when starts?

thanks for help!

in FGATO is better decreases all i can and when the lambda is correct i have to stop to decreases the FGATO and after correct the lambda by other map? whats the better way?

the engine is working good, have good acceleration, very faster! and he is without turbocharger!! is NA original working with 550cc in etanol and 3bar fuel pressure (original is 4bar), i will put the turbocharger after i fix a problem in the body shop.

The unique problem is that i said, in engine start when is hot with the original TVUB! the problem almost disappears 80% when i decreases the first point of five in TVUB.

Now i will try to increases 3 points in FGATO and decreases 3 points in TVUB but i will be happy if anybody say me the KFFMLTA in my ecu file!

i can install que original turbocharger ECU of 1.8T 20v replacing my original NA ECU? is plug and play?

First try to adjust whole ECU for 550cc injectors. Using info you can find here in the forums, you can get many tips about how to do it.

First, would be nice to define in ECU TEMIN and TVUB parameters for that ones. If you don't have it, try with OEM values but definetely FGATO should to be matched accordingly. First if OEM was 190 and new ones are 550, factor is 190/550 = 0.35 * FGATO OEM value. But as you are using E85 (Stoich is 9.765:1) vs Gas (Stoich 14.7:1) you will need aprox. 34% more fuel. Then new FGATO should be around 0.53 * FGATO OEM value.

You can also cut some startup injection playing a little with TLST (Startup Fuel Injection Time). I haven't checked KFFMLTA in you ORI file, I will try to look at it when I have some time.

About using the turbo ECU with your NA engine, after a little research in the net, seems to me that are some differences about ECU and wiring loom. From the info I saw, it would not be PNP. But it can be defined researching about it sensors and ECU pinout.

thanks so much for your help!!

I decided to replace 550cc injectors 440cc injectors max. I want the engine has a maximum of 250 / 300hp.

250hp with 100% etanol is not necessary to 550cc right?

thanks!

Gulfstream for E85 @ 250WHP, 550cc could be under rated, acording to the calculations. My past advice (385 or 440cc injectors) was for gasoline. Here are some good readings about how to calc injectors for E85: http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html (http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html) / http://injector-rehab.com/shop/Injector-Size-Selection.html (http://injector-rehab.com/shop/Injector-Size-Selection.html). Remember that E85 is more oxidizing than gasoline, then injectors, FPR, pump and it related lines should support it.

Please do it a favor, do some research about your turbo conversion. It will be safer and cheaper for you. Other thing is you can run a turbo with your OEM ECU, finally is just a Mass Air Flow fuel injection without MAP sensor, just like turbo M38x/M592 ones. But big difference is calibration. You will need to change whole load, injection and ignition maps, but I think that with knowledge, patience and many logs it will work quite good.

its so complicated!

for original, NA, when i put the injectors for E85 with the exactly size for etanol, the car run goods in WOT, so faster! But in cold idle its so problematic, fails in acceleration, bursts in the intake. bur after heated, Works normaly.
when i put the 550cc in NA, before install the GT25, the engine works perfectly when cold and heated, but in heated start, the engine fails and just star if open the thortle a little.

The ignition timing is good, idle around 14/15°.

Results:

with 29lb injector fails on cold idle and cold start
with 52lb injector fails on heated start, dont start without open a little the thorttle.

i believe that the 550cc inject so much more fuel than needed in start "drowning" the engine! and the 29lb injector is the opposite!


so... the unique problem with the 550cc is in heated engine start

I struggle with this problem over a year now!

make me crazy!

(http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280158117cs.jpg)

This is my injector!

whats the idle injection timing of original NA or Turbo 1.8 20v?

the minimum time of my injector is 0.711ms, if the idle original timing is 4ms i can decreases so much!

You can look for TEMIN in your BIN. In my case TEMIN is 1,1997ms. TVUB is FNPW_OFFSET. How are your trims at idle and part throttle???

reminder: TEMIN != TIMIN

MINPW's analog is TIMIN, not TEMIN

NYET, thanks a lot for you correction!!!!! I have the knowledge that it was. I have saw TEMIN only. Then in this case from the info posted, which is one and other?

KFFMLTA is 8bits or 16bits?

There is no TEMIN value you can just plug in... bottom line... there are a lot of things that go into the actual pulsewidth, most notably (at idle, anyway) TVUB.

That is to say, ti=te+tvub

In theory, you should take the smallest TVUB you'll ever see, subtract it from MINPW, and put the result in TEMIN.

Basically, TEMIN + the smallest TVUB, should never be less than MINPW.

In theory, anyway. YMMV, I have not really messed with it.

this is the KFFMLTA?


or

some of then is the KFFMLTA on this pictures?

have a way to edit the thorttle position on start?

if the thorttle open a little more on start when engine is hot i will solve the problem!

thanks for helping

How do you propose to do this on a cable driven throttle?

in this model the thorttle control the idle?

so have a way to pass more air in idle.

I'm close to solving the problem. I advanced two degrees in the ignition on idle, but just in the 2 points of 4 that i change! and the engine start when heated!

Gulfstream sorry about my late answer. Seems to me like could first pic. This a tricky map, in some bins I can found it easily in others is almost none present. Anyway here is how look in a 4B0907557B bin. If look closely it is almost 1 in whole map.
Generally speaking during my research, this map many times is before KFLFLAV – Lambdakennfeld Vorsteuerung zur Einstellung von Lambda=1 Betrieb.

 

Inclusive in DBC engine, Throttle Body have a micropass motor inside to control idle. Then open it up a little for startup when engine is hot seems no to be a crazy idea at all. Anyway it will be just a band aid, not a real solution. In other way, advance ignition could solve you the problem but it is another band aid, I think. For example where I live climate is hot and we have lot of traffic, then having 2 or 4 degress more of timing at idle, could not be good.
Do you have a definition, map pack or damos for your file?

thanks for helping!

I searched for DAMOS for my ECU model but i dont foung anything!
,
the address that i know (FGATO, TVUB, TENIN and MLHFM) i get with the help with the members of nefarious!

When i did not know about FGATO, I caught a battle to try to adjust the fuel mixture in idle and WOT. With that I copied some maps of turbocharger version and realized tests. circled in red the maps altered in some way to idle. I just changed only the first point. I believe the problem is because more fuel is being injected than necessary to start, and with that the engine "drowns"

in cold star is perfectly! the problem is just when heated! (WOT is good, idle is good, acceleration is good!)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img903/4274/X3D32k.jpg)

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(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1898/JK39Vs.jpg)

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(http://imageshack.com/a/img674/2531/sMZ4Rz.jpg)

Gulfstream try to check maps looking for it descriptors. Here I left you a spreadsheet that I took from other forum and I was filling up over time. It can help you.

thanks for helping!

axis nr A5 for exemple, the address on winols is 00A500?

Nope Gulfstream. Descriptors are codes that defines the axis of a MAP. Generally it is located near the MAP. Many times is just before it. A descriptor defines the axis element and column/row sizes. You can use WinOLS automatic search or try to hunt it using 3D and 2D views for the bin.

Then looking it hex format you will find something like:
Example (Load x RPM 2x2 MAP) xx xx xx xx A4 02 A2 02 00 00 00 00 xx xx xx xx xx, when A4 is "Load" descriptor, 02 is Y row size for Load, A2 is "RPM" descriptor, next 02 is X column size for RPM and "00 00 00 00" is the 2x2 MAP itself. Then you can create the MAP in WinOLS indicating it location (address), size & descriptors.

Check out this links for more info:
http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=875 (http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=875)
http://www.motronic.ws/maptable.htm (http://www.motronic.ws/maptable.htm)
http://apavlov.pagesperso-orange.fr/motronic/map8_format.html (http://apavlov.pagesperso-orange.fr/motronic/map8_format.html)
http://www.paerl.it/volvo/Volvo%20Motronic%204.4.pdf (http://www.paerl.it/volvo/Volvo%20Motronic%204.4.pdf)

FINALLY THAT IS THE REASON THAT A DAMOS, MAPPACK OR A DEFINITION IS SO USEFUL.

Thank you so much! your help was great now!

;)

I found the DAMOS for M3.8.3! its like a M3.8.2!

Now its easy!

It still says inside ---> Audi.....A3.....1.8T.....1999.....Turbo-Benzin.........150PS / 110.3KW.......557B .....0261204806.....358127....PLCC44.........0261204806..
It is for a 4B0907557B - D03 - 0261204806 - 1037359157 - M3.82 ECU.
I think that is the M382 that have been floating around since many time.

This DAMOS is good to my file, i find the maps in my ecu file, are not exactly at the same address, but well next!

If i put the file of A3 1999 1.8T M3.8.2 0261204806 on my ECU the engine will works? its better for gt25 turbo charger on NA engine?

KFFMLTA effects just when the engine is cold?

soon i will post vídeos of my passat here!

That is what many of us do with this type of Damos files. It is not exactly the one that I need but serve as an excellent guide to find as much info as we can. From my little experience with M38x/M592 ECUs NA and Turbo ones are different, then you can not use a turbo file in a NA ECU. I have tested with a M592 NA ECU with M383 Turbo file and doesn't work. KFFMLTA is a weird map, as you says seems to me that most control is when engine is cold or something warm.

Thanks!

i will try now with this DAMOS!

Hi people!

Exists a map on ecu file that control the injection pulse just in engine starts?

Thanks!

There is pair of groups related to injection control at startup:
ESSTT: A 13.0  Einspritzzeit Start           
FHSA.0   4x1   Heißstartanhebung     
FHST.0   4x1   Heißstartaufregelfaktor     
FKSM.0   9x1   Kaltstartfaktor     
FKSM.1   9x1   Kaltstartfaktor     
FKSU.0   2x1   Abregelung Faktor Kaltstart über Umdrehungszahl     
FKSU.1   2x1   Abregelung Faktor Kaltstart über Umdrehungszahl     
FKSWDK.0   5x1   Kaltstartfaktor abhängig von DK-Öfnung     
FSTD.0   4x1   Dichtekorrektur Startfaktor     
FWSTT.0   6x1   Wichtungslinie für Wiederholstart     
KFKSNM.0   6x4   Abregelung Faktor Kaltstart über Drehzahl und Motortemperatur     
KFKSNM.1   6x4   Abregelung Faktor Kaltstart über Drehzahl und Motortemperatur     
KFWKST.0   4x4   Wichtungskennfeld Wiederholkaltstart     
KFWNST.0   4x4   Wichtungskennfeld Wiederholkaltnachstart     
NKSM.0   2x1   Drehzahlschwelle von B1 -> B2     
TMH   1x1   Motortemperatur - Schwelle heiß     
UKSS.0   1x1   Umdrehungen in Bereich 1     
           
EVSTUE: A  9.0  Einspritzung Vorsteuerung Übersicht           
TLST.0   1x1   Startgrundmenge     
TLST.1   1x1   Startgrundmenge     
TVUB   5x1   Spannungskorrektur

But basically TLST.0 / TLST.1 is Startgrundmenge in ms. (Startup injected fuelmass in ms.)