NefMoto

Is this possible?

I am tuning my fueling and i got it spot on. Was running lean Before,

Now:
Idle -1% and PT 0%
WOT is following requsted 11.8ish on E85

I have dialed in boost pretty well - not done 100% yet. I will bump it up a noch later on.

Problem i have seen as i dialed in my fueling - the richer it got - more ignition timing retardation i got as well.

First i had one knock. What i did is
 
Reduced timing 0.75deg at that load/rpm. It got even worse.
I got two knocks with that timing and going from 12.4afr to 11.8.

It feels to me that i need more not less timing to battle ignition retard at those loads???
Can this be right??

(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/ign_retard_zpsbd062a5e.png~original)

Latest CSV as well

What's your rationale for running that much timing? How do you know how much is too much on E85? Have you been on a dyno to establish where you are in regards to MBT?

No, no dyno, but monitoring fats.
Timing on this Engine is retarded as by now  2.25deg compared to my old one, also is load (boost) and running richer. It is also slower.
I never had any retardation on old Engine even higher boost, higher timing, running much leaner no ign, retardation.
I have a couple of friends with same hardware running e85 on RS4s with about 5-7deg more timing at peak load. Some insane timing???

As i said when i was running 12 -12.3 afr with the same timing earlier today - there was less retardation.
Comming down on my req 11,8. 11-6 on some Points i got more retardation as you see.

Well, i will lean it up to 12.2 again and see whats happening.

(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/timing_zps9f19ddcd.png~original)


This is a log from yesterday.
Same load, timing higher .75 deg at 3500rpm and also higher IATS about 4-5degC, KRKTE really low AFR - 12.8- 13.5

Almoust No cerrection???

Why are you targeting that AFR on E85 though? I assume your wideband is gas scale?

YES, it is gas scale.
11.9 AFR. - 0.82 on e85 is not rich?
What do you aim for???
It is One of two things as i see it:
It needs more timing to properly ignite it,or this new build forged engine is sensitive too knock.
I don't believe it is solution nr 2.

You really should get some dyno time Kemal. Bottom line, at this point you just don't know what will work best.

Not trying to discourage you, but you should really stop and read a few books at least before you proceed.

What is your static CR?

If possible, I encourage you to get educated and get your feet wet tuning petrol first.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative, but your posts clearly illustrate that have some learning to do before you take on something like this.

I understand, but i am sure you guys do not have dyno at your disposal all the time tuning 10 cars a day, maybe i am wrong - you do?
Which way do you take if no dyno?
In that case i will take the safe way.
Btw if you Think this timing was high.
This is my friends RS4, same car - same hardware. E85 tuned by the very respectable tuner - NO dyno

(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/Bigtime_timing_zps5a15a81e.png~original)

Thank you Philla. It is Ok. As a matter of fact a did read a few of those books recomended here.
What is the approach you would take?

Just talked to the shop owner that build my block.
Forged Diamond pistons 9:1 CR with OEM RS heads.
Oem RS is 9:1
This tells me CR should not be limiter here.

I recommend that you tune the car on petrol first to gain some experience.

Get things figured out, find a system that works for you. Then move onto E85 after you've put together a good example.

Thank you for the advice, but that will not happen.
You can choose to advise me on the Mather, or not. Anyway I appreciate it.

Anyway, my approach is to turn timing really low, as I have everything else where I want it.
This should, make car loose significant amount of power.
Then log it and whach my TQ and fats.
Bump it 0.75 per load cell and logg. As long it is making power I will advance. Once the gaining start to slow down, back it up 1.5 deg.
That should be fine.

Can you trust the original timing correction detection now that the pistons have been changed?

If I remember well, those tables shouldn't be touched as safety.
Can you explain what do you mean?

Fairly sure some big name tuners change those in their big turbo files. I mean the original algorithms or methods used to detect knock in a stock piston/compression engine might not work right on something with forged internals. Just a thought. This is going back to relying solely on your correction factor data to dictate your ign timing.

Ok, thanx. So, you think I am getting wrong detection? That it is actually too sensitive?
It is always on cyl4 btw.
I am thinking if it can be something in hardware?
My fueling is perfect according to wb02.
Idle -1% pt 0%. Follows 11.8-12 aft up top.
What is confusing me is that looking at my logs, when I was running lean ie PT +11% aft 12.5-13.2. With much higher timing - there was less ign retard.
It does not make sense????

Latest log

The same fueling, timing was down by 4,5-6 deg from 2500rpm - 7000rpm on 120-200load cells.
Resulted as you can se in even more ign retardation on 3cylinars  now.
(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/timinglogs_zps3c8d71e1.png~original)

Tuning is giving the engine what it WANTS... not what a bunch of people tell you you think it should be.

Of course, it looks like you're running above the MAP limit, you should really get on a dyno to at least see if you're in the ballpark for ignition timing. 22.5+ psi isn't not little boost by any means.

I wouldn't trust stock knock control in this instance because well, it's very hard to make a car knock on Ethanol but it's easy to pass MBT and generate too much cylinder pressure.  Tuning with OEM knock control on E85 is IMO a bad idea.

If you have some other way to properly measure repeatable performance to see if you're going in the right direction then do so in the mean time.

I will not be tuning it by knock Control.
As i wrote earlier, my approach will be.
I have a streach of road that i Always use.
Two runs in oposite direction - same start and stop. To counterfeit hight levels etc....
Dial in fueling at 12 - 12.2
Boost - i am happy with
Lower overall timing until car looses Power.
Then start my runs and monitor TQ and fats upping timing .075deg at the time.
As i have seen Before gains are pretty big with every .75 in right direction. (seen onse gain of 30tq rise at singel rpm/load Point just by raising .075 deg)
Onse the gains are not as big - stop and dial it back a Little.
Do a lot logs under diff condtions.


I am on a 3 bar mapsensor.
I spoke with one of the best e85 high Power e85 tuners in the country today.
Explaind what was happening with the car.
And he said that what i am seeing is not a knock it is a unfinished combustion, very likely beeing too rich.
I am gonna dial up fueling to 12-12.2 afr and turn down timing allover for another 3 - 6 deg.
My turbos spool at 3500rm K04 hybrids (its an RS4 btw) What would be the best approach on spool up?

This probably has nothing to do with your issue but in my experience you'd want AFR around .71-.73 lambda. Which would equate to right around 11afr on gasoline scale. But as said before stock knock control is irrelevant on ethanol. All you can do is log power at the wheels and increase until you don't have any power gains.

Precisely, that will be my approach, but i Think 11 at gas scale (which i use) is a bit low.
Once i dial in Everything i will test a bit leaner/richer afr for more Power.

Thats wayyyyyy too rich.    Keep it around 11.8 and you'll be just fine and go from there.

That said Mocke, if the car likes timing, give it timing.  The motor is never wrong.

11 is too rich for this setup. It is more for big boost applications.
I got it at 11.8 -12 now, but BC load based, when it is cold out, the ecu calls for more load and it richens afr too 11.5 at some points.
I will lean it up first, hope for a run today, if I get the time of family business

Yeah!! Breakthrough!!
Looks much better.
AFR 12.2-12.7
Lowered allover timing from 80 load upwords by 3-6 deg.
Car feels better, has lost some Power but not much - as it should.
All of this tells me that my timing was way too high for this setup - thanx DAZ and Phila!!
Next step will be lowering timing just for 1.5 deg fix my FKKVS to keep afr constant and then start working upwords.



(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/141002_zpsaff357fd.png~original)

(http://i1360.photobucket.com/albums/r658/Lion_32/Knock_zps040c7541.png~original)


This is the same log.
Can i get some feedback, plz  - i dont understand exactly what is going on here?
What should Voltages look like if evrything was perfect and what this values mean.
Thanx!!

Logged knock voltages mean nothing; the ECU does a ton of processing on the realtime data for KR.

Ok.
I was thinking as i had just a tiny ign retardation at 5k rpm on cyl4, and cyl 4'on knock log shows higher voltage values, that actually ment something??