NefMoto

Searched and read the posts related to w/m injection that I could find. The one post was missing images that might have showed some valuable info. I'm getting the Snow Performance Stage 2 kit with variable injection, 2 of the 3gph and the safety system add on.

What I need to know is what's the best way to tune for w/m on K03's stock fueling. Also were should I put the nozzles? I have stock bi-pipes. Where should they go?

Now I know I don't have a wideband.
I have used w/m before I understand what you do to tune it. Adjust timing and afr.

What I don't know is how-to on a Audi.

One thread post suggestions was add timing til you see -6 while on pump gas only. That why when you run out you have some safety. Seems simple logic. This ok?

Now suggested was to adjust the map for timing based on continuous knock. Ok. What is a good starting point or what are others using?

Now on my last car we had adjusted the car leaner on meth. I forget what target afr was but my question is what is the new desired afr we shoot for on this engines while on meth?

-Right now I shoot for .85 / 12.5


I only post and ask as many different things were talking about on the threads I found and we're old. So I wanted to see if everyone agrees on going about it the same way or could share newer techniques.

Thanks!

I feel as though you put a lot of effort into your new threads, and that's good. I also feel as though you will never get the answers you want, because every one of them just asks to rehash the same things we've talked about 30000 times before.

I suggest reading. Getting a wideband. Then, taking logs with me7logger, and your wideband, and posting them.

I understand you want to formulate a plan, and get a consensus, but sometimes you just have to get something clear in your mind, and do it without the validation of others.

So are you gonna let me know without more research where people mount widebands on a V6 motor with dual exhaust? I'm not sure and haven't looked. Can I squeeze that out of you. If any of the info I asked was posted elsewhere sorry. I looked for my answers 1st.

Also I asked some basic questions bro. For some reason I'm must be missing some threads. Also techniques change maybe, figured I'd ask. Is wrong to guess that over time and on a engine I'm not sure of tuning wise that I double check. I'm sure someone double checks other people's work. I feel like it's the movie Apollo 13 where like 7 people check the math and say OK on his calculations before he goes for solid burn of the landing module.... Yes I went to Space Camp and the F-1 Saturn 5 engines amaze me..... I got carried away, sorry DD.

Doesn't matter. If you don't suspect odd bank specific fueling issues, no need for stereo wideband.

I always put it on the driver as it gets fuel last, and logic would dictate if there were an issue with fuel delivery, you'd see it there first.

I wasn't putting down your thread. I answer every question here. I was just trying to explain to you why you weren't getting much interest.

Ok, I see now only one wideband would be ok. Gotta check if the XSPOWER TIP 3" Cat-less Flex V-band dp's have the rear 02 bungs at the correct angle for W/B so I could hopefully use one of them for sensor. My friend gave me a brand new LC-1 sensor but I just need the rest past the controller box. I use to have the stand-alone tuning kit with tailpipe sniffer bracket but some friends borrow things and they become enemy's so atleast another friend helped out with a sensor.

Like I've told DD before I use to more crude engine management software like OpenECU and this car is like 100x more confusing to me so that's why I ask a lot of questions. DD has been very helpful to me over the past 2 years or so and DD and Nyet I wonder if you guys ever sleep.... yall put in work on the threads I can't imagine how you get anything done outside nefmoto. You have my respect don't forget that.

From my expirience you need to make injection time a little shorter, for example via KFLF and ignition angle a little higher then log it. But first you must buy wideband O2.

Thanks^ I have all winter to play around with the car. I really wanted the w/m for summer here in FL has made the car a dog. Last night temps got to 60° went out for a drive... to say it was great was a understatement.... the car was running great. I'll get to the wideband 1st. The A6 doesn't have a A-Pillar gauge pod that's a decent price. My friend will make one for $100 but idk about that. I don't like the column pod cause it blocks the stock gauge cluster too much for me.

So when I figure all that out I'll get the wideband installed. If I wanted to just put the w/m in for cooler intake temps and not extra power via timing I have seen people say it's ok to install it anyways. Also I see some bi-pipes have the bungs for the nozzles down where the upper intercooler rubber pipes attach. I also read some people say to install them about 6-8" from TB. My other question is when I did w/m research on my last car you didn't want to inject b4 the intake temp sensor as the water could cool off sensor and give the engine a false cooler reading. Is this not a concern for most people?

Put WMI on my stage 2 1.8T k03s.   Tuned car to roughly -6CF and the fuelling where I wanted it, and then just ran the meth through triggering at my chosen PSI of boost.

Doesnt run rich or anything like that and CFs drop right down when running on meth.  I could probably lean the mixture out a touch more but would rather stay a touch richer than chase that extra bit lean power, especially when tuning with out a rolling road.

Could even map it in from intake temps aswell to get the ECU to add a touch more timing when IATs go below a certain point.  Some map it in that way aswell

I would try and mount a throttle spacer with a 275cc injector with a checkvalve integrated injector holder(which snow-performance sells or else your vacuum will siphon the fluid and may cause hydrolock). It prevents potential issues down the road with your throttlebody and provides a better knock control (little less charge temp control then placing the injector a bit upstream of the throttle but you won't see much of a difference comparing the two). Although if you want to keep it simple and just have a dual small 60 - 100cc injectors with bungs welded to both bi pipes about a 12-24" from throttle plate you would net the most charge cooling with a lot less knock control.

The closer you get to the intake ports the more knock control your going to get. The further away the injector is placed will prove to net the most charge cooling effect. There is a balance to everything but I would take full advantage of knock control versus worrying about intake temps at the end of the day those runners will be ice cold  8). I loved my snowperformance kit. I usually target .82 lambda and run aggressive KFZW all day with 0 timing retard and a ice cold manifold.

Use intake temp vrs timing/boost maps to limit power in case of failure. (I forget their acronym)

I doubt the charge temperature is actually cooler when injecting 12-24" prior to the throttle body.  The IAT sensor can register a change in the passing airflow but what happens thereafter is unmeasured, and I suspect nozzles located in the IM intake runners would generate cooler charge temps, but they wouldn't be detected by the IAT sensor.

I was just worried about water cooling the air temp sensor as it advised by the w/m injection companies. My last car used a MAF pre-turbo and also took the air temp there, so I never could tell the ecu, hey cooler air. But I was able to adjust via my datalogs and afr with my AEM wideband to tune for the change.

Now I got a used kit, good deal. I have to do some research on the kit, gonna download the pdf and look it over, see on the forums if people have install/diy's so I can see how they set it up. IDK much about it it yet, its the Stage 2 kit, uses boost pressure to do progressive injection, the VC-100 controller, In-dash Indicators Lights, comes with Safe Injection Monitor and the Solenoid upgrade so I could do a spacer like setup mentioned above.

My last kit was a Stage 3 Devils Own DVC-30.

If your talking about IAT sensor failure due to watermeth. I was running a injector 6 inches away from mine with zero issues for 3 years. If your IAT sensor is located away from the path of water/meth then I would just numb the intake temp timing/boost maps. It won't help if the system fails but your just interested in the cooling benefits so its not like your interested in running crazy timing. So if it does fail I wouldn't be worried about it.

No, I wasn't worried about it failing, I was worried about false readings. From water hitting it and cooling the sensor down to a temp that's not really accurate.

I will be tuning for higher timing when the time comes. I have type 2 diabetes with high blood pressure and weight 350lbs, I will use enough time and energy installing the kit and will reserve the timing changes for later on.

Also the maps I see (KFZWOP & KFZWOP2) shoot for 27* when boost hits to 24*/25* degree up top, I see others saying that maps (KFZW & KFZW2) are just giving it a head start/where they should start to try and reach the values in KFZWOP/2, the car will try to hit the target timing in those maps and if they don't see knock they will continue to reach for the numbers in KFZWOP/2. Is this what I gather?

I already see timing reaching numbers that are higher then KFZW & 2 now that the weather has cooled down. Is it normal in the Auto/Tip cars to see a timing decrease between shifts even tho boost stays the same for the most part??

Log from the 10/3/2014, the weather has cooled down even more now. I'm very happy, so is the car.

If you pull timing at peak torque, you will be able to run MUCH more up top.

DD, are you meaning when tuning for w/m injection or based on my log I posted?

Based on your log.

Ok will do, thanks!

Here is one of my logs on meth. I run a 350CC nozzle in each bi-pipe with my frankenturbos.

Oh, and here is a cool calculator I found that has all the variables and helps choose nozzle size.

http://www.customperformancesolutions.com/waterinjectioncalc/

Thanks for your log, gonna over view it now. Also thanks for the link, I been using devils own's calculator for nozzle size and will look at your link in a few.

My question is, now I am not on w/m injection yet, kit is still in the mail. But in regards to the log I posted that is just on 93 octane. Daz had said to decress timing when max tq. hits, when I looked at it in ECUplot it looks like load is at 205 around 3,000rpms. So the timing tables I have scaled to only 191. I would guess the ecu interpolates at that point what the values should be.

Where should I be making my changes? At 191 load and 3,000? By how much? If someone could explain better for when the area is off the table so I understand that would be great. I also included my tune below so someone could look at it or help me where I don't understand.

Thanks!


** As I see if  your calculator link provided that it says basically a 6gph nozzle would work, me doing 2 of the 3gph nozzle would be correct right? That calculator isn't saying 6gph per nozzle right? Also didn't know the frankenturbo's flow was that high, 400 g/s I see tops, thats nice, your timing looks great too, I'd love for them numbers.**



**Warning** Don't flash my file unless you have same mods as me! *** Just saying !!!

Can you explain this a bit further? I looked at the logs. Is this always the case, or just with his car?

I could, but it would come off as preachy. I suggest reading up on forced induction tuning.

As far as his specific log, once you get detected knock, you have to deal with hysteresis.

Id like to know how that works aswell. :)

In laymans terms, think of it as an allergic reaction..

So your saying, knock when torque hits will cause timing from there on to stay on a low side verses trying to climb higher towards optimal timing maps?

See also "hysteresis".

Yes buddy :)

Think of it as the ecu playing it safe. It pulls timing when it detects the knock, but doesn't add it back immediately. Ignition angle is advanced towards requested ignition angle when knock is no longer detected. Look at the logs.

Timing never climbs towards the optimal timing maps. They are not used like that.

For every knock event detected, timing is retarded a set amount based on RPM. This is cumulative per cylinder. A cylinder specific timer is also set when knock is detected.

For every engine cycle without knock on that specific cylinder, the timer is decremented. The timer is reset if another knock event occurs on that cylinder. If the timer reaches zero, then timing retard is advanced towards zero by 0.75* and the timer is reset. This continues until timing retard is zero.

Yes, your last timing column 191 will take care of all the load cells above it.

Ok, I'm starting to understand this more and more. Thanks guys

That didn't come off as preachy at all. Thanks for the explanations guys. Honestly I've read a few big books on forced induction tuning, and have tuned a large handful of cars on standalone, but this timing reaction seems to be motronic specific. None of the standalone systems I've dealt with even had knock sensors. All were tuned on a dyno.

Going back to DD post he ended his answer with a word I had no clue, a very good vocabulary you have DD, my friend Matt would enjoy your extended vocab.

But to anyone else that needs a break down of the word Hysteresis, here it is.

"Hysteresis is the dependence of the output of a system not only on its current input, but also on its history of past inputs. The dependence arises because the history affects the value of an internal state."

So..is the hysteresis a function of ME7 and how it deals with timing, or the fact your egt's were higher at peak load due to overly advanced ign timing, and it's more difficult to cool it down as you climb in rpm? A combination of both?

I hate to pull this, but at this point you really should read the FR :)

I understand mostly what me7 does in terms of timing, and how it looks at previous events to dictate the future. I wasn't saying it was one or the other. What I was suggesting is if there was enough residual heat from past events at peak tq to influence what happens from 4-7 k. One is software, and one is a function of combustion.

Right on!!
Really good explanation. Thanx.

I attached photo's below. I'm making blind guess as to peak torque changes in timing to stop the timing pull after peak torque causes knock.

The changes in the right place?

Change too much? Too little?

Just trying to understand more what I'm doing at this point. Some people seem to get the hold of this really easily and I have a few area's where I just haven't got it yet.

White are my tuned file that's along with the logs, same file same logs.

The yellow images are the changes that I am guessing on, not sure whats too much and too little, I borrowed alittle bit of changes from a stock S4 L-Box bin but feel I went to high after 3,000 rpms. If someone could help me with this file to get it more perfected in areas I don't understand as well.

I can pay, have parts to trade, send you some beer money. The meth injection for power increase will be the hardest for me, I could use help then. PM me if you willing to help me out, I've helped other in areas where I easily understand stuff and do them a solid.

Someone here on nefmoto remote flashed and tuned a buddies friends car just about a month ago. I don't know the member but they called me to come help flash the file the guy had for his AR and when I couldn't make it there they remotely did it, which I didn't know it was safe to flash that way.??

Ok I wanted to post again. I got the kit, seems I need to order or find some fittings like a T fitting for the hose and a 2nd nozzle holder and a bulkhead fitting for using the factory washer tank, seen someone take out the headlight washer motor and putting fitting in there and sealed nicely. Also I see him add a little hose to reach bottom of tank.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2n8oldk.jpg)

I seen some examples on forums where people just drilled a hole near top of washer tank and just ran a intake tube down near the bottom. I was thinking of mounting the 2 qt tank in truck and run hose to the washer tank, again a hose put in to the top of the washer tank. The system came with the flow safeguard thing so I can just use the LED's provided to tell me when I'm out of w/m. The stock washer tank warns you way to soon of low fluid wish there was a way to move the 2 probe "sensor" down further but I have yet to see if there's room down lower.

I have included pictures of 3 nozzle locations. Are there the 2 area's we have discussed in this thread so far?

Location 1

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2d8jj3l.jpg)



Location 2

(http://i57.tinypic.com/admdyr.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/jh5x60.jpg)



Location 3 - 034 and ARD locations

(http://store.034motorsport.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/e3ba88b75855daa593e751b7fe593e0b/0/3/034_Bipipe_Raw_1.jpg)

You need more time to allow the mixture to cool the air charge.

ARD does it right IMO.

The more time the water/meth has in contact with the intake air, the better it can knock down temps. I use a set of SRM Bipipes and actually see my IAT drop for most of a WOT pull after cruising for a bit. Just make sure to trigger the system late enough to have the air flow to carry/move the mixture. Unless you use a variable controller, it should only come on a little before peak torque. There will be a little delay in the fluid actually getting injected, so you have to account for that too.

Is it safe to inject meth/WATER when EGT is too high? I know water needs for down intake temperature, but as we all know fast temperature change is not a good idea, though I'm not sure meth/water injection changes it too fast.

Perfectly fine.  Water meth will help with EGTs anyhow.  If your EGTs are that high before meth...something is probably very wrong.

It looks to me that at 150 g/s the air is moving around 24 m/s through each bipipe.  18" of extra travel equates to 0.02 extra seconds.  At 200 g/s about 0.015 seconds extra contact time.  I wonder if the extra time really matters.

Installed the kit, will post pics tomorrow.

I mounted my nozzles down where the flat area starts on the bi-pipes where the air charge 1st enters from side mounts and running 400ml/min total and intake temps went from 100* and climbing near 140* off the w/m. To 100* down to near 67* on WOT pulls (at night). Just gonna tweak timing in the next few days. Will post logs tomorrow after I get some daytime logs when its hotter but drier out. It is super humid tonight.

The outside temps here in Florida been low. I got some logs when it was 70* degree's out.

Seeing some good results. Same tune as before thats posted. 50/50 mix of w/m dual 225 ml/m nozzles and 93oct. Logs attached below, one log I thought car downshifted out of 3rd so you'll see TPS go 100 then drop and back to 100 this screwed with results a little. The full solid 3rd gear run was done good. Car runs alot smoother on w/m and had to add in check valve and throttle response came back.

**Side note question, how do you setup me7logger to output seperate files each logging session? Mine keep going into the same file and add in a few rows down.***

These logs make my car look slow, Calc TQ looks close but HP never does to me, I have input as much of my cars data into ECUxPlot. But it isn't slower that's for sure, can someone else please open them in there copy of ECUxPlot. I'm using the newest copy and the car is a 2000 A6 2.7T.