NefMoto

Ok, lets start from the beginning. Many of these things may be obvious and perhaps I just haven't connected two dots that were right next to each other but bear with me for a second.

I'm a hardware guy. I've been working on cars since I was a little kid with my father. Probably about 10+ years. Problem is, he restores vintage cars. Everything pre-70's and more likely, most things pre-war. All wars, like cars/motorcycles from 1910-1915 kind of thing. I am used to carbs and no emissions systems and twiddling mixture screws. Thats the tuning I know.

I have 0 background in electronics, none, zilch. I've done some internet research so I know what PCB's are and mosfets and some things of that nature (very limited).

The issue i'm having is connecting what the hardware is doing to the numbers I'm seeing on the damn screens in front of me. It just doesn't make sense to me!! :'(

I understand that most electronic fuel injection cars utilize a series of solenoid actuated valves and voltage sensors to electronically control how the engine operates and to collect data on this operation.

I know ME7 works with: sensors: maf, map, rpm, camshaft position sensor, oxygen sensors (2), throttle position sensor, IAT sensor, coolant temp sensor, knock sensors (2), accelerator pedal sensors (2), brake pedal sensor, clutch pedal switch. Actuators: fuel pump, fuel injectors, coil packs, evap canister purge valve, n75, throttle control unit, n249 recirculation valve and 02 sensor heaters.

Problem is figuring out how the numbers in the software files I have correspond to what I know the hardware does.

FYI, I'm using nefmoto for flashing and tuner pro for viewing and editing definition files. I have a 2002 VW GTI 1.8t AWP. HS box (not sure what this number is other than an identifier of the software that corresponds to the hardware it's supposed to go with)

I've also read the S4 tuning wiki and some things make sense to me but not enough to start playing around with my car's ECU which in my opinion is worth more than gold. S4 wiki has helped a little with definition terms. I have a pdf of definition terms translated but it's very large and extensive and dry that i can make very little understanding of it right now. Perhaps a little more information explained to me would lead to some enlightenment with this large file.

For example, I assume that the tables in these files are "adaptation tables." I assume that adaptation tables are data that the ECU builds in order to deal with certain data that the sensors produce. What are the numbers in these tables? Do the numbers refer to voltages? Amps? What units? Is every table a different unit? If so, how do I know what is what? Is there anywhere I can go to understand this better? Is Tunerpro the problem, does it have too steep of a learning curve?

I really love both old cars and new but electronics are clearly my weakness. They say if you want to get better at something hone in on your weaknesses and improve them. So that's what I'd like to do, understand electronic tuning so I can make modifications to my ECU safely and in a highly controlled manner. This is a quest for knowledge so time is unlimited. Problem with where I'm at now is i've hit a brick wall in my understanding and need a guiding hand.

Help, s'il vous plait.

What are you using for a Tunerpro definition file?

The tables to which you refer are are look-up tables, not adaptation tables.  For example, look-up table KFZW, ignition timing.  For a given rpm at a given engine load (which data comes from the various sensors), what should the ignition timing be?  The ECU looks it up in the table and sends the answer on to the rest of the electronics system, which fire the coils at the right instant.  A vast simplification, but that's the basic idea.

Adaptation is provided for some systems such that the ECU learns about the exact vehicle it is installed in over time.  For example, perhaps the engine has a slight intake manifold leak that causes a lean condition at idle.  The ECU learns that it needs to always inject a bit more fuel than the look-up table says.  The ECU doesn't have to wait for feedback from the oxygen sensor as to whether it is injecting enough fuel, and smoothness and emissions improve.

ah ok, I now understand adaptation and look up tables somewhat. Nefmoto won't let me upload the xdf file i'm using for some reason, even though it let me upload it before. I successfully converted an HS map pack that Userpike upload from a .kp to .xdf. The link to the thread where I uploaded it is below.

that was the only successful time I managed to convert a .kp to .xdf. I'm trying to do it again with an audi tt225 definition file and I'm having problems. Not sure if I could just use the HS .xdf or not, things may not be catalogued in the HS that are on the tt225, like the haldex look up tables or something. I don't really know if those would be look up tables anyway…

see, I kinda have no idea what i'm talking about but have bits and pieces that I know make sense.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4936.0 (http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4936.0)

Anyone have any good explanation for me or place to get this information i'm looking for?

XDFs don't often cross over from one ECU to another.  What are you trying to accomplish?  State it clearly and succinctly and indicate you're willing to put in the work (which you seem to be so far, so good on you) and people will help.  So far, I don't think anyone can tell what it is what you want to accomplish.

Lets start off simple, whats the difference between a scalar and a table? Why does one get a numbered chart and one just have a simple numerical slider?

scalar=1x1 table

A scalar (which is just another way of saying 'single value') is used to set a limit upon which something else will happen.  Example, rev limit.  Hit the rev limit and over rev routine is triggered.

Not always, though -- "codewords", which tell the ECU what's installed in the vehicle (example: O2 sensors installed?  How many?  Secondary air injection installed? Variable Valve Timing installed? etc.) are/can be represented in Tunerpro as whole-number values (scalars) rather than 0s and 1s -- you should understand binary numbers at some point and how to go between binary and decimal - -your Windows calculator can do it for you View/Programmer.

fukenbroken's description is the most accurate. It is a single value, 1x1 table.

It may be a bitfield as well, which could be (technically) visualized as a 2d table.

Yes, and I was explaining how/why a scalar might be used rather than a table, which was the question.  The OP is starting from scratch.

AARDQ, Thanks I am understanding your explanations. I am starting from scratch.

Binary is way over my head. I've read some stuff about it but it just didn't really click. Whats up with binary and how does it relate to the number on the tables and scalars I'm seeing in Tunerpro?

So for instance, Say I am operating a 2002 GTI 1.8t AWP which works with a K03-52 (K03s) and I am looking to install a K04-022 (K04-02x) which comes on the Audi tt225 1.8t. Could I simply convert some of the numbers in my tables and scalars that are in the bin for a tt225 and put them into the tables in my AWP 1.8t? Obviously you can't just plug in a tt225 ECU into a awp gti and expect everything in the car to work but If I just wanted the supporting software that helps run the K04 in the tt225 to put it into my vehicle, would there be a way to hybrid the two files together where I need them? I'm not doing this but it seems like a good example to learn what tables and their functions provide more power whilst comparing two similar files.

Also, how would you be able to pinpoint the differences in both the awp and tt225 bins? If I could figure out the differences, I could trace the function words back to this pdf file I have, write them all down and what each one does and study it to find out whats needed for different pieces of hardware.

imo KFLDIMX, KFLDRL, KFLDHBN are enough to handle it well
more PID-section maps you can find in s4wiki

more power = more boost = more load= more LDRXN(zk) but you cant simply raise max load without changing fueling, overboost protection, torque, timing, some axes etc
read s4wiki and explore stage1 projects

Terrible idea. You have no idea if the person who did the k04 code knows what they are doing.

You should REALLY learn EFI tuning first. Even some general concepts.. you don't really seem to know at all what an ECU does.

If you are going to go about it the dumb way, you could (alternatively) start by looking at logs.

The end goal is always the same: fueling, boost, timing.

I meant a stock audi tt225 tune. the 225 Hp from factory tune.


Nyet, I started this thread to learn some things about EFI. I stated what I knew about it in the first post which wasn't much really, i also asked if there were any books or other sources to look at other than s4 tuning wiki and no one has suggested something.


How will looking at Logs inform me on tuning processes and ECU (EFI) function? Not saying this sarcastically, I'm not experienced with logs really and would like to know.

Check the tuning section for a thread about recommended books on tuning EFI.

See the tuning sticky.


Timing, fuel, boost.

From those three things, you can see what works and what doesn't. Log enough cars (preferably on the same dyno, same conditions), and you'll quickly get a feel for it w/o having to know ANYTHING about EFI.

At the end of the day, all tuning is about optimizing those three parameters safely.

Once you know your end goal, you have something to focus on when learning. Motronic is extremely complex, and like you said, it is easy to lose your way with so many things to juggle at once.

I asked a similar question a few months back, got the following reply:
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6695.msg62101#msg62101

And:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9AlTN-WfgmnN2huYjhaRnJFcGs/edit?usp=sharing

It's also worth having a read through of the community projects, they will give you a bunch of pointers, and when you get stuck to the next point then ask for more help. Everyone is here to learn, it's easy to get put off by the learning curve, but stick with it and you will get there.

The s4 wiki is pretty vital, and worth reading a bunch of times, it will make a lot more sense when you are looking at it with a map editor in one hand...after you've read it 10x already!

If I was looking to get started I would find a well defined map and open up the map and xdf and start browsing the categories, you will spot stuff that starts to make sense, then go take a look at the wiki again.

anyone know if his 032HS is cross flashable with anything useful?