NefMoto

Hi all

Because I'm a Newby, I purchased a tuned file for my 97 aeb 1.8t and figured out how to flash the ECU. all stock except forge DV.

Pretty happy with it but now that I am learning more about tuning, I want to tweak the file for excessive KR and wonder about actual load not meeting requested load when wg 100%.  I am seeking  some advice.

I have been vcds logging rpm,  KR via channel 20 and load via 114.  for WOT 3rd gear I get KR peaking up to 9 degrees when at rpm 4k+ and load above 8.5ms.

I should modify KFZW.0 .1 .2 and retard my timing in this load/rpm range if I want to get this KR down to around 3? Correct ?

M5.9.2 does not report boost, but the boost max is 16psi from my gauge, and is about right for stock turbo?  If so, I interpret actual load not meeting requested load at wg 100% as a physical limit of my k03, correct? I seem to have actual load 1-2 ms or so below requested when wg is 100%   If turbo is healthy, should I be concerned about this? If so, is reducing requested torque maps  the correct route to investigate to get requested and actual loads to match up?


Thanks for whatever advice you wish to share.

It all depends where (engine speed wise) you are getting 16psi of boost. If it is at not more then 5000-5500 RPM it should not be bad but for stock K03 you could be already running at low compressor efficiency (sometimes it is better to have lower boost as you might be just heating charge air now).

Also it would be good to check AFR using wideband oxygen sensor as your knock might be related to lean mixture.

I would check intake for leaks because 2 ms is quite big load difference.

Thanks for the advice. Now that I know  2ms is significant, will swap with my spare stock ECU and first see if loads match,  should give an idea about physical vs tune issues.

Keep in mind that for example warn DV can be up to hold stock boost level while it may have issues with higher pressures...

Okay,  swapped in stock ECU., thanks for the note about DV, is new so hopefully ok.

Did a couple of 3rd gear pulls, the requested load and actual load stay much closer, within 1 ms or thereabouts. Also,  I noticed up to 4.5 degrees of KR correction for stock ECU file so maybe the max 9 degrees KR correction I see tuned isn't all that bad for this car and its sensors?

My max boost tuned is definitely below 5k rpm.  Not sure what to conclude at this point other than maybe my original thought about the tuned file requesting more boost than my k03 can kick out warrants further study.

I would check your spark plugs (for wear and gap size) and your coils as 4,5* is too much for me in normal situation. If it were mine car I would set it up so it would have max 3* retard.
I would double check AFR as you may have some fuelling related issues causing so high retard (for example worn MAF).

Hi placebo those DBW ECUs are greatly dependent of MAF signal measure. I don't know which ECU are your engine using, but those VCDS log channels seems to be from another ECU type. I will suggest post some logs to take a look in detail to your issue. But first I will follow tjwasiak recommendation, check your AFRs because high KR could be due to some poor AFRs.
About logs, do good one of RPM, Air Mass, Load & KR. Seems to me that channels 002 and 024 can help. I will not log more than 2 channels at same time to have at least some useful log resolution.

Really appreciate the help.  ECU is m5.9.2 558M, pretty sure I am logging correct as I had to read-up a steep hill when figuring out how to flash. Still, will double check the logs and channels for vcds for when I go to log and post as suggested.

From your feedback, it appears I really do need to check my AFR. My idle and part throttle trims look good but seems nobody can make headway on AEB tuning without wideband.  Does this mean bringing it somewhere for a dyno?

Little car background about its age.  Car is almost new, no kidding.  I got it  with only 20k on the odometer 6 mo ago for grand total of $1k.  Somebody's somebody's 93 yr old mother had it sitting in limp mode in her garage for nearly 20yrs and wanted it gone and  I figured I needed a project.  Another $1k on towing, tires and suspension, fuel pump and other things that age with gasoline and sitting, now good as new, with even new car smell in the trunk!

Will post back with logs and also AFR once I figure out how and where to get reliable AFR info

Could you check and post your MAF readings?

Can you clarify for me? When you say max 3 degrees in normal situation, you mean during WOT logging?  I see very little CF for daily driving, only during logging is it over 3 on the stock ECU.

Yes, I mean maximum 3* even at WOT as it let ECU to retard it more if something bad happen. If you (or someone who made the tune you are using) have set it so it already retards 9* at WOT now engine damage may happen in "unforeseen circumstances".

Here is a log portion from my way to work on Friday.  Not the best but should give you some ideas of how it is running.  Will figure out how to attach files and get a better WOT run to post ASAP.

   Group A:   '114            Group B:   '003            Group C:   '020         
      Time   Time   Time   Duty Cycle      RPM   Mass Flow   T.B. Angle   Ign. Timing      Knock Reg.   Knock Reg.   Knock Reg.   Knock Reg.
   TIME               TIME               TIME            
Marker   STAMP    ms    ms    ms    %   STAMP    /min    g/s   °    °BTDC   STAMP   °   °   °   °
   427.95   9.15   7.65   4.35   99.6   428.2   2240   34.79   74.2   19.5   427.69   0   0   0   0
   428.73   9.55   9.45   7.5   99.6   428.98   3080   89.51   76.4   12.8   428.47   0   0   0   0
   429.48   9.7   9.55   9.35   73.4   429.74   3640   108.96   81.6   18   429.23   0   0   0   0
   430.26   9.7   9.45   9.2   77.7   430.51   4160   120.07   86.8   20.3   430   0   0   0   0
   431.01   9.7   9.4   9.1   83.2   431.26   4560   132.64   86.8   20.3   430.76   0   0   0   0
   431.76   9.7   9.4   9   91   432.01   5040   140.48   86.8   19.5   431.51   0   0   0   0
   432.51   9.7   9.4   8.6   99.6   432.76   5440   145.56   86.8   23.3   432.26   2.2   0   2.2   2.2
   433.26   9.7   9.45   8.05   93.8   433.51   5800   147.01   86.8   23.3   433.01   2.2   0   0.7   3
   434.01   9.7   9.45   7.6   99.6   434.26   6160   146.94   86.8   21.8   433.76   1.5   0   0   2.2
   434.76   9.7   9.4   8.9   87.1   435.01   4800   138.61   86.8   16.5   434.51   1.5   0   0   2.2
   435.53   9.7   9.15   9   82.8   435.79   4840   139.37   86.4   17.3   435.27   3.7   0   2.2   1.5
   436.29   9.7   9.1   8.95   85.9   436.54   4960   140.83   82.5   14.3   436.04   3.7   2.2   4.5   3.7
   437.04   8.7   8.85   8.45   24.2   437.29   5160   107.01   59.5   24   436.79   5.2   2.2   4.5   6
   437.79   9.7   8.8   8.65   80.1   438.04   4120   124.31   86.8   15   437.54   5.2   1.5   3.7   6
   438.54   6.8   8.45   3.8   0   438.79   3640   15.48   12.6   37.5   438.29   5.2   1.5   3.7   5.2
   439.29   6.85   8.45   0.55   0   439.55   2520   4.23   5.2   30   439.04   0   0   0   0
   440.06   6.7   8.45   0.35   0   440.31   2520   2.84   3.5   30   439.81   0   0   0   0

MAF reading of 140g/s should give around 170-180HP which might be too much for AEB stock injectors (taking into consideration that your fuel pump harness is quite old and the pump under load may get low voltage) and that is why you have knock retard as you are running too lean. I would try to drop requested load a bit and check if it will still retard timing (do it in small amounts and log what is happening between 4500 and 5500 RPM).

Thanks for the insight! I should mention the above log was with the purchased tune file and me adjusting the kfzw maps -5% as a first attempt at tweaking it.

Think I'm going to log the stock bin for a while to diagnose the fueling issue.  I know the stock loads are giving up to -4.5* KR so no use in tuning the loads until I get this fixed for the stock bin.  Good reason to get me a fuel pressure gauge.

Once okay for stock, will report back and dig back into tuning.

Placebo, do not do italian tunes on your car. I would not change any map by percent or even by gradient. If I were you I would adjust KFZW maps only in those spots where you see excessive timing pull. You can also try to adjust (enrich) fueling in those areas (but check if it is outside closed loop because otherwise you will only screw fuel trims).

understood, %tuning is bad.  bad Placebo  :( really was going to fine tune later on, it was the first time I modified a map myself and was mostly playing and praying that I
 knew enough to make a map change, checksum and flash without total disaster.

I put a fuel pressure gauge inline near my fuel pump and read about 55 psi. I put it near pump because that's where I been using a check valve and was easy fast swap, seems close to 4 bar (58 psi), I reckon close enough for cheap gauge?

Good to know I should be thinking about modifying for fuel enrichment; was only considering tweaking timing.
 

Is it under reading 55 psi under full boost? It should read 58 psi (as set by regulator) + your boost pressure (was it 16 psi?) - so 74 psi, 70 would not be bad. I would check voltage at fuel pump at WOT at around 5000-5500 RPM (I suggest you should ask someone to help you taking those measurements).

Yeah, definitely gonna need help if I have to read at full boost,  this was idle.

At idle it should read 58 psi - gauge pressure in your intake manifold, so 55 psi is quite high value (you should be running higher vacuum at not loaded idle with warm engine).

EDIT: BTW you can always ask at the forum if the changes you made to your file seems good enough to flash and log.

I disconnected the Vacuum form the FPR and tapped the gauge into a spot near the fuel rail, reads 59 psi so I reckon the is working.

All the sudden my AC clutch or compressor is making a bad bearing sound so gonna take a break from tuning until I get the this, my fuel pump voltage logged, and a new vacuum leak resolved.

 Don't want to muddle up an excellent tuning forum with mechanical repairs.

I really appreciate the help and will be back once the car is ready for tuning.

Hi All,

After long delay fixing an idler pulley, I am back.  Put a hold on tuning and reverted to stock to be sure everything is okay before tuning.  I installed an Innovate LC-2 wideband A/F gauge and took some logs for the stock ECU; see attached table and plots below.  As you can see in the vagcom log, I  have significant timing correction even with stock ECU.  The plot of the wideband looks okay so it is not due to running lean?  Can't figure out why I get so much timing retard with stock settings.  

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

How are your IATs? Timing Retard is a little high but AFRs seems to be around 11.5-11:1, that I think are enough for that LOADs.

Did a carpool errand and logged .  Outside is 30 deg. C,  logged and was about low 50s cruising and up to  max of 63C in a half-assed 3rd gear pull with some timing correction of about 4 degrees.     IAT Seem okay?, not sure what spec should be.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks Karma!  You were right.  Logged the IAT and was 30 degrees above ambient.  Pulled it out and  cleaned  the varnish off and the temps dropped 20 degrees.  A few quick logs and knock correction is at a max  of 2.2 instead of 4+.

Onwards now to tuning :)

 :'(,  Appears I had a very serious case of wishful thinking.  Put back in my chipped ECU and IAT temps went back up to 63+ deg C after a few (4) very spirited log runs.  Also had significant (9+) timing retard so I swapped back to my stock ECU for safety.

Don't know what to think.  I have swapped out to a colder and gapped plugs, air to fuel ratios look good (to my untrained eye) and checked fuel pressures are good; all to no avail.  Perhaps I am limited by living in TX with hot summers and I get some serious heat soak.  Not too sure about this as I think I was getting the same amount of retard over the winter too.  Since I am at a loss for what else to try,  I filled up at a different gas station today, added some seafoam and tonight I will clean and flush out my intercooler with the hope it makes some difference.

Will be back if anything changes.

Are you using stock SMIC???? because with outside or ambient temps of 30°C, IATs of 63°C could be common. Here is the ignition timing vs IAT correction factor for my M383 ECU. M592 ones should have something similar. You can see that some ignition timing retard is programmed due to IATs. I wish I had some old logs to compare it. Where I live is common to have 30°C-32°C during midday.
I can suggest to log AFR during the pulls when ECU takes out ignition timing your are seeing.

Oh yeah, you are on to something here for this NEWB!  Thanks for the info

Looked up the M5.9.2 map,  see attached. For a recent IAT log I had a max correction of -4.5 at 5400 rpm for an IAT of 53 C.    So some of this high rpm  correction must be from my map but the remaining correction coming from somewhere else? Must be some rules when this map is applied and when not, maybe only at WOT?   Are values in this map additive with values detected by the knock sensors?  I know my temps go into the 60s but maybe not at WOT.

From my readings and research I have the understanding (I really need to make this in IDA to go deeper :) :) :) :) ) that this correction map (same as I show you before) are fixed and applyied directly to base ignition map. To that result applyies actual controls by knock sensors (that is ignition retard by knock you see in your logs) giving you the final applyied ignition timing you are seeing again in your logs. Take in account that under normal engine operation, ECU try by default to use as much ignition timing as possible, of course up to a practical limit.

If I understand you correctly, the logged knock sensor CFs then have nothing to do with these map CFs. They are applied independently to the timing being run by the engine.   If so, then the experience of seeing knock when hot out is due to these map CFs being inadequate?

I wouldn't say that those CFs maps are inadequate, just serve as precaution and allows faster adaptation for general engine operation conditions. I would log LOAD, IAT, AFR, Timing + Timing CFs to know how is engine working and do a better documented comment about how is your engine working. If you car is 100% ok, hot climate, heatsoak, slow car movement, poor ventilation and small intercooler can generate some good timing CFs.

Okay, think I understand this part.  Very helpful.

 I guess I need to figure out if my stock ECU  4.5 knock CFs are typical for my ambient temps.

 
I am under the impression that a well tuned ECU has CFs of about 3 and something is wrong with my setup.

I think that you start to got the point  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D