NefMoto

Hi!

My problem at the moment is discovery the map names!

The Car its a VW Passat V6 4motion 2004 ME7.1

I know just one, KRKTE!

I need to know the address of Idle ignition timing, partial ignition timing, wot ignition timing.

and for fuel, i need the address of TVUB, TEMIN, TLST.0 / TLST.1.

I take some pictures of some maps that i found, it on a red circle! I would like to know the names!
MAP 01
(http://www.ponto33.com/map01_01153E.jpg)
MAP 02
(http://www.ponto33.com/map02_010C27.jpg)
MAP 03
(http://www.ponto33.com/map03_011A28.jpg)
MAP 04
(http://www.ponto33.com/map04_011EEB.jpg)
MAP 05
(http://www.ponto33.com/map05_064D42.jpg)
MAP 06
(http://www.ponto33.com/map06_0171F3.jpg)
MAP 07
(http://www.ponto33.com/map07_0167AC.jpg)
MAP 08 16bits
(http://www.ponto33.com/map08_014B28_16bits.jpg)
MAP 09 16bits
(http://www.ponto33.com/map09_014626_16bits.jpg)
MAP 10
(http://www.ponto33.com/map10_01224F.jpg)
MAP 11
(http://www.ponto33.com/map11_01217A.jpg)

Help me please!!!!!

Dont exists DAMOS file for my ECU (engine BBG)

:)

1) please don't clutter the forums with posts in the wrong section
2) it is unlikely anybody can identify those maps by just looking at your screen shots.
3) how do you know those maps are important if you don't know what they are? There are thousands of other maps.

At least for the 2d maps you could get a screen shot of them in 2d :P

For that i need, that is run with E100, i need to know the address of that i say before the pictures! The pictures, i post just for any body that recognize the maps say you name!

And the question "I need to know the address of Idle ignition timing, partial ignition timing, wot ignition timing.

and for fuel, i need the address of TVUB, TEMIN, TLST.0 / TLST.1"

dont is noob question!

This map is call SQRTIN_ONU its used for LOAD application.

That is a mighty flacid member you have there, sir.

Had you posted addresses, I would have done them all. From looking they appear to be:

3 kfzwop 1/2
9 MLHFM
8 KLAF
11 DZWETA

Have fun.

One more time, ddillenger you are great! Always help me!

Every map that i know the name make learn more!

DZWETA and kfzwop

http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=651.0

http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/wiki/index.php/MDZW_1.120_(Calculating_Torque_at_the_Desired_Ignition_Angle)

1 minute after i read the name i found here in nefmoto the explanation!

My method of learn is different! I know how the engine works, but i dont know the map address and her name!

Know the name and the address i can read and read more and learn! Here in Nefmoto have alll information that i need, but i just know what i need to search (map names)

:)

Thanks!

The Map 05, its like a ignition timing on idle, and the MAP 07, its like a ignition on wot.

I dont have certainty of this, but the maps are equal of the maps in ME3.8.2 (Passat 1.8 20v asp)

the map 10 is kfzw 1/2?

(http://www.ponto33.com/kfzw.jpg)

This map is the KFZW?

whats the map name in green and yellow circle?

Have 5 days that i works in E100, perfect! and so much power!

I change just the KRKTE, KFZW.

thanks!

:)

I found a post with a A3 file that help me to found any maps, they are so near in same files!

KFZWOP 11x16 @ 0x11557
KFZWOP2 11x16 @ 0x11607
KFZW 12x16 @ 0120DD
KFZW2 12x16 @ 01219D
KFMIRL 16x16 @ 0150CA
KFMIOP 11x16 @ 0x16616
KFLBTS 16x12 @ 0x192A6
LAMFA 6x15 @ 01C98A
KFLDIMX 8x16 @ 0x1E200
KFLDHBN 8x8 @ 0x1E8F2
KFDLULS 8x8 @ 0x1EB93
KFLDRL 10x16 @ 0x1E352
LDRXN 16x1 @ 0x1EAD4
LDRXNZK 16x1 @ 0x1EB16
VMAXNB 1x1 @ 01F49A
VMAXTM 5x1 @ 01F4A8
VNMX 1x1 @ 0116C8
NMAXDVG 1x8 @ 01F478
NMAXGA 1x8 @ 01F488
NMAX 1x1 @ 01679A
NMAXDV 1x1 @ 0x1679C
NMAXOG 1x1 @ 0x167A2
DNMAXH 1x1 @ 0x16794
ITNMXH 1x1 @ 0x16798
TMOTNMX 1x1 @ 0x1F498
TNMXH 1x1 @ 0x167A6
CWDLSAHK 1x1 @ 0x186F7
CDKAT 1x1 @ 0x181A3
CDHSH 1x1 @ 0x1819E
CDHSHE 1x1 @ 0x1819F
CDHSHE 1x1 @ 0x1819F
CDLSH 1x1 @ 0x181AB
CDSLS 1x1 @ 0x181B0
CLAHSH 1x1 @ 0x10751
CLAHSH2 1x1 @ 0x10752
CLAHSH2 1x1 @ 0x10752
CLAHSHE 1x1 @ 0x10753
CLAHSHE 1x1 @ 0x10753
CLAHSHE 1x1 @ 0x10753
CLASLPE 1x1 @ 0x10786
CLASLVE 1x1 @ 0x10789
CLASLVE 1x1 @ 0x1078C
KRKTE 1x1 @ 01C830

Just lack i found the TENIM!

The car is so good working with E100, but if i correct the TEMIN, works better when engine is cold!

:)

For that AUM file (I suppose it is 06A906032FC as addresses seems familiar :D ) TEMIN is 0x15454 and is followed by TEMINVA...

Thanks!!!!!

I found!!!


TENIM / TENIM(VA) - 0x154C8 / 0x154CA

In ME3.8.2, FGATO is 8 bits and TEMIN 16bits right?

In ME7, KRKTE is 8 bits and TEMIN 16 bits?

:)

AFAIK:
 - ME7: KRKTE is 8 bit, TEMIN(VA) is 16 bit.
 - M3.8.x: FGAT0 is 8 bit

This is rarely true. Most ME7 is 16bit for KRKTE :)

Everyday you learn something new 8)

The map with yellow and green circle of the post above are the same! is KFZWMS

Thanks for all that help me!

I will make a map address list and post here soon for help the others that have the same engine code (BBG)

:)

When i edit KRKTE in 8bits, just the address 0x1CF84 changes, but when i edit in 16bits, the next address (01CF86) change too, why? 

I found TVUB 154d2!

Thanks!

:)

SMH.

Please step away from the hex editor :(

You must have set something wrong. 16 bit mode should change bytes 0x1CF84 and 0x1CF85.

What exactly have you changed to run E100 hardware-wise? Just injectors? Are you running different fuel pressure regulator? What about setting timing?

And question to ME7 gurus - how will whole torque model work with KFZWOP(2) screwed (as it was set for petrol not for E100 so ignition advance impact in torque calculations would be completely wrong)?

Short answer: KFZWOP has to be rewritten for E100 or race fuel. E85 is usually "close enough".

That is what I thought :D
Next (obvious) question - how one without engine dyno and all equipment used by OEM calibrators would prepare proper KFZWOP? I understand we could estimate it just by offsetting it by same amount KFZW had been offset for same load/engine speed but I am not sure how far it would be from proper optimal ignition timing... At least here we are talking about naturally aspirated engine when it should not have so huge impact but still I would try to do my best to set it up properly.

Yes, that is the challenge. There isn't an easy answer to this. The bottom line is that pretty much 100% of tuners that do not have access to an engine dyno have no choice but to guess at it.

I have seen many files made by "reputable" "pros" for many different ECUs and all I can say I am disappointed by their work. Some of those file were quite expensive and still were made easiest possible (not correct) way - for example by decalibrating injection duration in diesel engines - if I would like a power box I would buy one, if I choose ECU tuning I want it done as it should be done.

Regarding ME7 all I saw is that even those "reputable" "pros" lacks understanding of torque driven ECUs...

You also have to understand they simply do not have the time or resources to do everything the "right" way. They have a lot of product to ship and a constantly evolving catalog of different ECUs that have to be reverse engineered, year after year after year.

It is not an easy thing!

I criticize "pro" tuners all of the time, but if I'm honest, they simply can't afford to do everything the "right" way. They'd never stay in business. The DIY guys have the luxury of not worrying about how long a tune takes to do, or how long it takes to really figure something out...

IMHO no one is capable of doing all ECUs on the market. That is why no one should try to do so. I would just stick to some ECU families (or even cars) but do them properly.

I post that KRKTE in 16bits changes the 0x1CF84 and 0x1CF86 (sorry), but its wrong, in 16bits changes 0x1CF84 and 0x1CF85

For E100, i change the original injectors for a injector model with 18 holes and 55% more flow rate (model FBY2850).

It edit KFZWOP for more 6º in timing (E100 needs to advance +- 6º in ignition timing), i make the same in KFZW.

I change KFZWMS too, but i dont know if causes efects in E100.

For injector with just 55% bigger i believe that don't was necessary to change TEMIN, i just will change if the idle stay rich after i found the correct value for KRKTE

for E100, the engine need a flow rate 35%/40% bigger.

How many bits are in the byte at 0x1CF84?

;D

According to my data E100 requires ~63% more fuel, as its stoichiometric AFR is ~9.0:1 (14.7:1 for gasoline). It looks even worse if you compare rich best torque figures (AFR ~6.43:1 for E100, ~12.5:1 for gasoline) - it is ~94% more fuel.
Taking that into consideration the injectors you are using are too small IMHO.

0521

Uh. No. How many bits are in 1 byte?

Here in Brazil exists cars with E100 from factory, and the injectors are 35%/40% bigger than gasoline original.

In a old carb cars E100 from factory, the carb have the flow rate 40% bigger

8 bits / 1 byte?

I'm not good in hex!

The hex of krkte is 0521 and dec is 1313

Can you fit 16 bits in one byte?

I post my E100 file for all view.

was change:

TENIM
TENIM(VA)
KRKTE
KFZWOP
KFZW

My VCDS fails since last week, and now i cant make changes in fuel without analyze the O2 sensor.

I believe that have just small errors in TEMIN, just idle have little problems

I believe that i understand now!

1 byte = 8bits

2 bytes = 16bits

Its correct?

After i adjust the fuel in idle, i will spend a time to adjust the KFZWOP/KFZW, because the E100 need a different ignition curve.

example:
(http://www.ponto33.com/ignition.jpg)

I do not think E100 needs different shape of ignition timing curve as it is engine hardware dependant (at least KFZWOP should be). It might be just poor OEM tune (those must fulfil different needs - economy, emissions and power - most of the time power is sacrificed).

I would like to ask how does it run when warming up? I understand you have quite warm climate but still it might need another tweaks to start (cold & hot) and run properly during warm up.

If you like, i can post here the ori file of a VW AP 1.6 Mi Gasoline, and a ori file of VW AP 1.6 Mi ETANOL ori file.

In warm up the engine of passat v6 and 1.8 20v works like a original etanol powered engine, for cold start, i use a glow plug of diesel engine to heat the etanol for start like a heated engine.

In a passat 1.8 20v E100 i just have a problem when starts hot with 550cc injectors... for solve it i need to found TLST.0 / TLST.1

Please post it, it could be good to learn how such conversions are done by OEM 8)

So you do not need any warm up maps tweaking? Is it not possible to just readjust cranking fuelling for cold starts? Have you compared those OEM E100 tunes to gasoline versions - maybe you will find a simpler way to do it?

Post ECU flash - maybe someone will be able to help you.

For the injectors:

Gasoline: 14,70:1 and sg is about 0,725
Ethanol:  9,0 to 8,65:1 sg is about 0,811 
(Some authors say 9,00, some - as Marelli, says 8,65)

   14,70/8,65 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,52  (I)
   14,70/9,00 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,46  (II)

You can go anywhere between these and everything will go OK, in fact 52% will help with TIP IN issues based as ethanol is more dense and its response is slower, but in stationary loads/RPM 46% will make less corrections in STFT.

About KFZW/KFZWOP

Just start about 6° (forget where I saw it first time) in KFZW, as KFZWOP are defined as max ignition angle if it was not limited to detonation you can keep it as original values.

There is just when things start to get complex, if you have an engine with low CR (for Ethanol, let´s say less than 10,5:1) you can raise KFZW much more than 6° and will in some cases get more than KFZWOP in some areas, in these case I just make an off-set with something less than the original off-set.

Its interessant to say that you never get detonation with these low CR (not talking about turbo yet, just the NA part of operation), and in some time you raise KFZW and don´t get any torque more (it´s related to peak pressure beeing 14° after TDC).

High Higher CR and pressure you get much more torque as you walk next detonation limit, in these cases you shall want to increase the entire KFZWOP in the same off-set it have original before you mods.


Warn-up and cold start are a real pain in the ass... Hidrated Ethanol flash point is about 15°C, so, about 13°C you don´t have any combustion, about 17°C it´s very hard to ignite it... things only get better about 35/40°C...

To get Worst, when Ethanol get out of injectors it will get volume, and for Nerds sake lower the temperature more...  in practice start an engine with 100% hidrated Ethanol will require a LOT of enrichment is these 20~25°C areas... and much more in lower temperatures...

Warn-up it´s another pain, the Wall Film don´t help at all and moisture oscilate much more than with gasoline... again, it requires a lot of enrichment to work, and it only get really normal when engine temperature is more than about 60°C and air temperature is at 35°C at last.


Just to make things more clear, here we have some flex engines that work with 100% Hidrated Ethanol and can start about 13°C, but there is 2 ways, one is heating fuel in injectores (special injectors made by Delphi for example) other is software based, when the driver start engine it will never pulse all injectors full bank as usual, the ECU allow Engine to do some revolutions without injections, with WOT (TBI all open) and firing ... after that start small injection making wallfilm until first ignition happens... to achieve this injectors angle and spray are  diferent from Gasoline engines and manifold are all in ABS (plastic) so the heat exchange rate is minor than Aluminium ones.

It´s made this way because if you make a full group injection at start as usual the spark plugs get wet (ethanol makes short-circuits in eletrctode and mass) and in these conditions will never get a spark to occur

In 1.8 20v with 550cc, was more easy to adjust for warm up, in 2.8 20v, i'm near to get it! the FBY2850 injectors are around 300cc, but i think that this little error can be corrected in TEMIN, because each time that i lower TEMIN the idle engine works better. when fails, is just in idle, and after 3 minuts dont fails more. but without VCDS i dont have a way to check it. I dont know the VCDS don't found the interface.

I'm posting now the ORI files GASOLINE/ETHANOL

So, for E100 don't needs to change KFZWMS?

For E100 is good to keep KFZWOP at the value original? dont make any changes?

If it´s get better after 3 minuts you are experiencing only LTFT taking it´s place on tuning ME7  :D

Don´t mess with KFZWMS, what do you think this map do ?

KFZWOP you can leave it alone for start as I said before, because you CR is low to Ethanol it will not be a problem, latter, when you´re done with KFZW it MAY (or not) require some refinement in KFZWOP (again, as I said before start with same off-set   KFZW-KFZWOP and go testing it)...

lower TEMIN/TEMINVA will make only injector don´t pulse if it have more dead time than original ones (can´t tell you is it´s the case), but increase it sometimes help when using very big injectors wich can´t open in low pulse times (for example deka60 long EV1 don´t open lessa than 0,7ms...make TEMIN little major than that help you a lot when you are starting the tune, after you tune FKKVS, you can low down it to the real value)

Here you are right as I have not taken mass/flow difference into consideration. Still there is more flow needed if you compare rich best torque mixtures - it is just not 94% I mentioned earlier but ~84%. Taking that into consideration I would say Gulfstream has choosen probably a little bit too small injectors for this conversion.

I still can not fully agree with you about KFZWOP as you simply insist torque model (which is one of the most important things in ME7) could be left in degenerated state. Adjusting KFZWOP by just shifting it by 5-8* could be much better solution than leaving it stock while still being an ugly hack.

KFZWMS is ignition timing in function of exhaust gas temp?

so i have to found SFTF and FKKVS

ME7 have the KFFMLTA map? This map is important to warm up?

The injectors that i use (FBY2850) is 55% bigger than my original injectors, when i used 50% bigger injectors in 1.8 20v engine i had the same problem in warm up. When i change the injectors per 550cc (bosch final 117), was more easy to correct warm up like a OEM engine, but i had the problem in start, because i dont found the TLST.0 / TLST.1 .

The problem is in small injectors (50/55% bigger), i dont have a correct value for TEMIN and KRKTE.

FKKVS found!

1CD56 16bit LoHi 0.000031
X 1CD26 8bit 40.00 - RPM
Y 1CD36 16bit LoHi 0.002667 - ms

I hate math! :)

Theoretically, the KRKTE can be calculated with the following formula
KRKTE = 50.2624*(Liters/Cylinder)/(operating flow rate in cc/min * .684 constant )
Example:
KRKTE = 50.2624 * 0.4452 / ( 615 * .684) = .0532

where i will put this result (.0532)?

so... i dont understand this calcule and i dont understand it (50.2624 liters/cylinder)!

ok, my car have 2.8 liters, and the injectors 350cc. (for example in 2d, how much i have to decreases)

I am good in the practice and bad in theories! in all!

this post (http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning) is help me to understand somethings too!

KRKTE 16 bit factor 0.000111 0x1CF84
FKSTT 0x15594

TEMIN you don't need.

not "50 liters/cylinder", 50 * (liters/cylinder).

where "liters" = 2.8 and "cylinder" is ....

ddillenger, thanks for you always help me!

Great informations in this forum!

:)

I get a help with this calcule, see below

with 350cc
50.2624 * 0.461833 / ( 350 * .684) =
23.2128349792 / 239.4
So, KRKTE should be 0.0969625521269841 = should be 0.0969

:)

If you look lambda (as Bosch use) it will be same... 0,93 lambda is the best torque lambda, for Ethanol or Gasoline... you just enrich more than this to control knock or EGT, with ethanol EGT is LOWER than Gasoline for the same power output, thats why you can go 0,85 lambda when gasoline would had problems.

I didn´s say that, I said for first instance it can be leave alone as original values as it states that is the max ignition angle if not knock limited, i.e. max power with ideal fuel (what Ethanol represents at some point), BUT max power with ethanol is ure with more advance than gasoline (as they are really diferent fuels)...

He shall start with 6° in KZFW and AFTER tweek KZFWOP if he have some problems (what he probably will not have)... that´s th way I do all my Ethanol convertions for more than 10 years... worked well for me.

STFT = Short Term Fuel trim (is not a map !!!!) it´s ME7 helping you to achieve spec lambda (lambda 1 if you didn´t mess wrongly in some way)

concentrate you mind in FUEL first, after you can think aout how to get it better dealing with ignition...


small tip, this formula is PETROL (as stated in FR), to ethanol you must take in account specific gravity and correct the formula...

55% bigger in static flow...it´can be (and probably will) MUCH diferent in dinamic flow (for example 1.000 pulses at 2,5ms as used for bosch)

I am not sure if you are right as I found different figures here (http://ethanolpro.tripod.com/id213.html).
For petrol you should target between 0.9 and 0.85 roughly and enrich more only to prevent knocking and/or fight high EGTs (you can also try to advance timing to fight with EGT but sometimes it is impossible for example in boosted applications).
According to above mentioned data for E100 you should target between 0.86 and 0.71 to get same results.

I am afraid you do not fully understand torque model and ignition timing impact on it. KFZWOP is not maximum ignition advance under any circumstances - it is optimal ignition advance for given fuel (for which exact software was calibrated). I can assure you optimal advance is different much for E0, E10, E85 and E100 - as you told E100 needs more advance, so optimal advance is higher. If you even only during tuning "session" set KFZW to value close to or even higher than KFZWOP for given load/engine speed you can get many issues as whole torque model would just not work as it should - so every parameter (which depends on modelled torque, I would say as most depend on that it will be nearly all parameters!) would be incorrect. If we do not have proper tools to calibrate KFZWOP for different fuel (as it would take not only time but I am pretty sure at least 1 engine would not survive those tests) we should not leave it in stock form when KFZW is heavily altered. In naturally aspirated engine real timing could be closer to optimal (due to lower in-cylinder pressures) so it is even more important IMHO.

You shouldn´t trust in all things you see on internet...

the most recent studies shows that around 0,93/0,94 lambda is the best value for torque if you don´t have knock and/or EGT issues...

0,71lambda in Ethanol is shit... concentrate in 0,82~0,84 area and all be ok

I make ethanol cars here everyday (Live in Brazil, we have it on pump since 70´s)


I sure understand torque model, you are not following what I said... START with 6° in KFZW and AFTER increase KFZOP only in areas needed, can you make the KFZWOP from scratch ? If you can´t it´s the only way...if you can we are discussing about angels sex  ::)

Sure you can make a "off-set" 6° in KFZWOP to start, but it will make your guests much more dificult as you can´see how far you are from the real optimal value.


Another thing, nothing stop you from disable torque monitoring to make these first mods and make it work again when you have this part done

Torque model is not only torque monitoring. This whole ECU is build on torque model. Every single function uses it to some extent.

Sure, but disabling it help when you didn´t finish KFZW/KFZWOP yet ...

If you have another different aproach to tune these ECU using E100 please tell me...

I decrease the FKSTT, the rich idle smell disappears but the idle still oscillating!


this idle oscillating can be wrong KRKTE value? KRKTE is for WOT right? but affects the idle?

(http://www.ponto33.com/FKSTT.jpg)

have two FKSTT in my file? if yes have to change all?

I just change the 0x15594 (1st), dont make any mod in 0x155BA (2nd)

KRKTE and TVUB are both used all the time!
KRKTE is used to calculate for how long the injector should be open for given load to achieve lambda 1.
TVUB is a value added to calculated injection time to compensate for the time when injector is powered but is not spraying fuel.

KRKTE is the constant that convert % (load) in ms (injection time)

TVUB is time you increase for injector response for a specific battery voltage

used all time.

first adjust krkte, tuvb, fkkvs, KFLF, kfkhfm and after start tuning ignition.

fkstt ... enrich both

What?

Have here in others posts a ori file and changed file in KRKTE for i examine?

I make the same way that the overspeed say for ignition timing, and was the best!!!

My unique problem now is fuel!

At the moment, my KRKTE is down in 3%, down TEMIN 8.85%, down  TEMINVA 7.89% and up the FKKVS in 10%!

After i increase 10% in FKKVS the engine obtain so much power!!! and less fails in warmup.

I dont know how i will solve this problem in warmup...

Remember, this is for E100 and 55% bigger injectors.

In my other passat, 1.8 20v, i use 550cc injectors (more than 100% bigger) for E100, and i down FGATO in 45% and down TEMIN in 15%, in this configuration my engine dont fails when cold, warmup and hot.

I dont know whats the problem when i use small injectors!

i dont found the KFFWL!
:(

i have the address of KFFWL in the A3 ME7.5 file, but i search a similar map in my ME7.1 file, but dont have any map like the ME7.5 map!

for i finalize my E100 file, i just need to know this map for correct warm up!