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Title: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 04:56:41 AM Hey guys,
Firstly the platform I am using B7 1.8T 8E0 909 518 AR K04-0015 Bosch 550cc EV14 Injectors Stock MAF I had my car tuned by a tuner some time back and since then it has always had massive timing retard (-9cf). I had asked them to sort it out in the past and they tried but could not figure it out (This was when it was on K03-0029). Since then I've done some changes and have been using an MBC in Parallel to keep boost spikes away as the Wastegate on the K04-0015 is crazy and I get 1.6 Bar when using the N75 alone (I've since adjusted it on the map I'm working on and I seem to have got it working just fine) but I still have this crazy timing retard and I can't figure out why (Perhaps I'm just not understanding something, perhaps it's torque intervention) so I'm calling on the assistance of the forum members to advise me in where I might be going wrong I also have weird AFR spikes and stuff. I used Master J's spreadsheet to calculate and scale KMFIOP I've also attached a log of before I tuned WGDC and after. *Edit : Did a PS_W log and I seem to be hitting the cap early on, could this be the reason? I'm new to all of this and still trying to get an understanding of how it all works. I've posted logs and stuff below. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 11:30:10 AM -6 isn't "massive"...
But it is too much. Hint: running 13+ AFR through peak boost isn't a good idea. The fact that they "can't figure it out" should tell you to find another tuner. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 11:43:49 AM -6 isn't "massive"... But it is too much. Hint: running 13+ AFR through peak boost isn't a good idea. The fact that they "can't figure it out" should tell you to find another tuner. Hence me trying to fix it myself. I've actually got another set of logs where timing retard is -10 :/ I've uploaded the CSV. The weird thing for me is that lean spike at the beginning. Also I've tried using TABGBTS set to 200 and using LAMBTS to force the fuelling to around 12 AFR in boost but it isn't working all too well for me. Even removing timing from KFZW does nothing much. I'll figure it out eventually. I'll do some adjustments to LAMFA and see what it does and report back. For now I'm using Methanol Injection as a band aid :( Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 11:45:51 AM The weird thing for me is that lean spike at the beginning. Also I've tried using TABGBTS set to 200 and using LAMBTS to force the fuelling to around 12 AFR in boost but it isn't working all too well for me. LAMFA. Quote Even removing timing from KFZW does nothing much. I'll figure it out eventually. And/or KFZW2?Quote For now I'm using Methanol Injection as a band aid :( There are worse bandaids :) Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 11:55:05 AM Haven't done much with KFZW2 yet, I'll have a look.
Thanks for the assistance nyet, much appreciated. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Lost on July 14, 2015, 11:58:34 AM If it is constantly retarding ignition try more fuel with LAMKRL and proper Lamfa ofcourse
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 11:59:45 AM Thanks Mocke, let's hope this pans out, been pulling my hair out for the past few days regarding this.
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 12:02:13 PM Haven't done much with KFZW2 yet, I'll have a look. Both KFZWs have to be modified in concert! Ideally doing it on a dyno with cam advance always enabled/disabled.... In a pinch you can just cut and paste and make the modified areas identical. but start with getting AFR into the low 12s or even high 11s using LAMFA Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 01:56:10 PM Alright, on to the next chapter
I forced an 11.85 AFR using LAMFA to see what happens. 10.5 Degrees Ign Retard, 8 Degrees Ignition Advance, and an AFR that's almost spot on 11.85 I'm a bit lost as where to look now, I also removed some timing from KFZW/2 I've attached my log, bin and xdf (Nowhere close to fully defined, just attempting to define maps as I need them, not very good at it though) if anyone feels like taking a look to see where I've failed. I've pretty much butchered this thing trying to find out why it's just not performing. (Could it be torque intervention by any chance?) Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 02:03:52 PM I forced an 11.85 AFR using LAMFA to see what happens. 10.5 Degrees Ign Retard, 8 Degrees Ignition Advance, and an AFR that's almost spot on 11.85 Yikes. That really doesn't look good. Bad gas? Knock sensors loose? Pull heads and check valve guides? Some other source of noise that might cause KR? Do you hear audible pinging? Try pulling a bunch more timing out of KFZW/2 See what you have to do to get your retard to zero. I don't think it is torque intervention, it appears to be KR related. Also, I don't like that your ps_w is so far off actual boost... check your DV for leaks, and pressure test. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 02:20:54 PM It isn't bad gas or knock sensors, if push comes to shove I'll pull the head.
The best I can do for now is to do a pressure test, I was also concerned about ps_w as I don't feel that I should even be close to the limit there. I'll also pull out as much timing as I can and see where that takes me. I'll report back in the morning (Well, my morning which is in 7 hours time), thanks again for the advice. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 02:26:04 PM The best I can do for now is to do a pressure test, I was also concerned about ps_w as I don't feel that I should even be close to the limit there. Yeah, this raises alarm bells in my mind too. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 11:17:18 PM Just a report back, I've pulled about 10 degrees off the last 4 load value columns (Which load value column would I use for WOT? Just the last one?) and it seems to have made a substantial difference.
Mostly 0 Degrees retard (Except when I went over a small bump), 9 Advance, 11.85 AFR all the way through. I suppose this is the point where I slowly start adding timing back to the table? Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 14, 2015, 11:41:07 PM Just a report back, I've pulled about 10 degrees off the last 4 load value columns (Which load value column would I use for WOT? Just the last one?) modify in and around the load/rpm combinations you log (rl_w and nmot). Smooth out the rest. Quote I suppose this is the point where I slowly start adding timing back to the table? Yep. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 14, 2015, 11:49:14 PM Thanks nyet, you're my hero :D
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 15, 2015, 02:25:41 AM Final Update, everything is in order, 3rd gear, 12 advance, -3 pull, I can finally rest. Thanks for all the assistance guys :)
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 15, 2015, 11:12:00 AM Well done!
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 18, 2015, 04:17:21 AM Sorry to bring this topic to light again but I want to keep everything in one thread.
The last issue I'm struggling with is this lean spike that I keep getting as soon as I go into boost. What could this be from? Fuel Trims interfering? Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 18, 2015, 05:09:21 AM I can't find NORLA in my Bin to disable trims
I've set TLAFA to and FF'ed ZKLAMFAW_0_A and ZKLAMFAW_1_A Ive even unplugged my N249/112 to disable fuel trims and I've unplugged my MAF to see if that was the issue. I've got 550cc Bosch EV14's (0.0466 KRKTE) on my 1.8T if that helps. No boost leaks at all as I had it tested last week. It starts pulling timing at the lean spike and that's another major issue I'm having :( happens at all boost levels too. I'm at my wits end here. Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: nyet on July 18, 2015, 10:25:07 AM FPR? Fuel pump? Do you have fuel pressure gauge? Does not look like a software issue...
Title: Re: Can't seem to figure this out (Massive Timing Retard) Post by: Pynoxim on July 18, 2015, 10:36:58 AM I'll have to have a look at the fuel pump, the fuel filter has been replaced and since it's a returnless system the FPR is inside the fuel filter.
The AFR's always settle to desired after the huge lean spike. It's making me sad :( I'll check my fuel pressure in the week. |