NefMoto

Was in DC the other day for the Red Bull Global Rallycross race and saw this type of system.
Its been around for a long time so not sure how I missed it. Thought it was some kind of 2 stage wastegate setup at first, lol.


(http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx346/mattway87/skoda%20museum/IMG_3437.jpg)


I doubt this is as easy as plumbing the diverter valves to kombi valves to feed the sai ports, but I like the idea of boost in the charge pipes, regardless of what you do with the throttle  ;D

22psi at idle would be nutty!!!  http://www.cosworth.hu/?p=77

Damn. You have any more pics?  ;D

I dont have any pics from down there, them dudes kept that stuff on the down low  8)

That pic is just one I snagged off the web
http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?247988-Octavia-WRC-Engine-erm-the-bus-Can-somebody-stop-the-bus-Ta!

If you have a cable throttle, by all means, get this.

Im sure I got some cable around here somewhere!!

This looks like taking a turbocharged engine and turning it into a gas-turbine pumped engine.

I saw that and started wondering if we could turn the secondary air injection into primary air injection  ;D

Thanks for posting that link Zilla. Shits awesome.

Useless on any modern car with e-throttle.

I'm liking those pics in that link you posted  8)

One of the crew guys I was talking to said the Super class cars were in the neighborhood of 600k.
Im pretty sure if it were useless, it wouldnt have been on there.

Looks like this type of system can make boost on its own, independently of whether or not the throttle is open or closed.

My guess it has the ability to maintain psi in the charge pipes while engine braking and can supplement the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo sooner.

Use

Less

Can our current implementation maintain spool while completely off the throttle and engine braking?

Can it kick in to help spool the turbo if you shortshifted and bogged the motor?

That stuff sounds like it could be useful to me.

There are more pics of that engine in the photobucket album
(http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx346/mattway87/skoda%20museum/IMG_3430.jpg)

Pretty sweet looking engine.

No, but then again this isn't WRC.

What if I drive like a WRC driver? Oh wait, youve seen logs of my driving  ;D

Just seems like a neat way to do things and would be pretty easy to do on our cars.
Some cars are driving off the lot with these systems installed for homologation purposes. Sounds like it just needs to be turned on in the ecu for them to be functional.

Seems like you could potentially make something like 770s or k24 hybrids spool like k04s, or maybe even k03s.

Im thinking put the kombi valves on the heads, plumb one of the diverter valves to them, another n249 or n112 to control them, and some mojo in the ecu.

Who wants to be a guinea pig?!?!  ;D

I couldn't imagine doing this on a car that the turbos are this difficult to replace. Anti lag while entertaining is very detrimental to the turbos longevity.

Nearly anything you can do with a bypass like this you can do with an e-throttle. No problem to keep the turbo fully spooled all the time with an e-throttle whether you are touching the gas pedal or not.
"Your" current implementation does not allow it, because it is not WRC. All the hardware is there to do it, the only thing that needs to be added is code. Don't expect the turbo and manifold to last more than 1-2 races though.

Just because something costs 600k does not make it change physics.

And that 600k may include the 5 manifolds and turbos the car is expected to go thru ;-)

What about the 2 things in the post you quoted?

Just looks like an interesting way of doing things and might be easily adapted to our cars.
My guess is the ports in the head may be too small to have any real effect. The ones in the pics look to be pretty good size.

No kidding, they dont look cheap! But I dont think they go through them all that often.
Much of the engine, including the turbo, is sealed and tech keeps a record of how many changes there have been.

I wonder if it would be any harder on parts than what we already have?
Guessing close to the same and very dependent on how it is used.

Again, it is not needed. You can keep the turbo spooled all the time without this. It is not "interesting" it is just old.
Audi used a similar system called "umluft" in the 80's in Group B rally.

You are wrong. Bang-bang antilag means that turbos and manifolds are changed very often.
Plus, very expensive materials must be used for them to last at all.

Manifold/turbo lifetime with a such system when used with standard materials has been quoted at 50-100km.

I must be missing something here  ???
Lets make sure we are on the same page with the differences between this and our current systems.

This one can work in two modes. The normal one we have now, and a bypass mode.

The normal mode shouldnt need any further explanation. Im fairly certain you know more about this part than I do anyway  ;)

The bypass mode is the interesting one. It is not just bypassing the throttle blade or holding it open, it pretty much bypasses the entire engine.
This lets the turbo basically run itself, kinda like this vid  ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI5wAeJUbsA

I think this allows them to do (at least) two things that we are currently not able to.
Close the throttle blade for engine braking (overrun for the guys on the other side of the big water?) and still maintain spool.
Kick in to help spool the turbo when you are at an rpm lower than the turbo would normally spool.


I wasnt at that race as a spectator. I mean it when I say they dont go through that stuff all that often.
Turbos and manifolds are most often changed due to an engine problem.

Yeah, that doesn't look detrimental at all. Glowing turbine and all!

I think that is how inconel tells you it is happy, it glows.

Shits hot, yo  ;D

i started a topic on the same idea a few months ago and got bashed for it. nice to see someone is following through and actually using it!

It

Is

Not

Needed

with an electronic throttle.

It does not matter if you bypass air through the engine or you bypass it next to the engine whatsoever.
With an e-throttle you do not need additional things because you can just use it to bypass as much air as you want without affecting the pedal.

You do not need to close the throttle for engine braking. It is enough to cut the ignition/fuel which has exactly the same effect. You can argue the engine does not pull vacuum then, but what creates engine braking is mostly internal engine friction.

And that you can do too by just bypassing air through the engine. The turbo does not spool because of "low rpm" the turbo does not spool because of not enough volume of exhaust gas.
No problem to create said gas by holding the throttle wide open and throttling the engine using other means.

I do this stuff for a living, I have experience doing it both ways. You can keep this up, but first I recommend a book on basics of internal combustion engines, then a lot of stuff will be much clearer to you without having to spoonfeed it to you bit by bit.

follow this link to some detailed info about "umluft" on the audi S1 rally car. it even has pictures of all of the hardware that audi used in specific to make their setup work.
http://www.bufkinengineering.com/Umluft.htm

 i do agree with PRJ that there are better ways to achieve this sort anti-lag through retarding ignition. the retarding of the ignition along with wide open throttle is a hair safer than the way audi used to do it although its going to ruin engine parts eventually. over all what audi did was use a porsche wastegate as a diverter valve which in turn vented the boost air from the charge piping directly into the turbo manfold when at the same time they would either stop the ignition or retard the timing allowing the fuel that was supposed to be burned in the cylinder to enter the turbo manifold with the oxygenated air from the charge piping and the heat from the manifold would cause it to comubust in the manifold. the cut was activated by a closed throttle switch as well. i have seen pictures of the inside of an S1 and they have an umluft switch to enable the feature if the proper hardware is bolted to the engine.

i've seen people attempt to do this on old DSM's a few times over the past 10 years or so and every single time was a large fail. either their turbo blew the turbine wheel out the exhaust or literally blew apart the turbine housing, the manifold blew right off the front of the head or it burn the exhaust valves out of the head. either way the end result was not good for the engine at all.

Old DSM's... I had one of those a long time ago. A '92 Plymouth Laser RS Awd. Good times :)

I would think displacement would matter to air going through the motor, no? Not a prob if you go around it. This is where I think the biggest prob would be, ports in the heads are pretty small.
Lets try and forget about the pedal. I think it is safe to say that most here understand the differences between dbw and dbc.


I hear what you are saying and agree with most of it.


This volume is why I am guessing they use it. You can throttle the motor by other means, but only up until you are giving all shes got.
Being able to circumvent the engine should let you run full tilt, and supplement this volume to keep the turbo in its happy place.


I dont doubt you know your shit here, but there are reasons top level teams with unlimited budgets are currently running this.

The books and spoonfeeding comments are a little uncalled for, especially from someone who thinks friction is what primarily slows a car down when engine braking  ;) (just ribbin ya, I know you know better)

Lol, my cousin had one of those back in the day.
I remember it being all digital like knightrider, and I think it spoke spanish. I dont think he ever figured out how to change that shit  ;D

The reason is that traction control and e-throttle are forbidden.

End of.

Tc is still a no-no, but they were allowing ebc and dbw.

Maybe the opposite in wrc? Ex-wrc cars needed to pull the wheel speed sensors off for some reason.

i would venture to think they make them pull the wheel speed sensors is because if their on there thats grounds for the teams to come up with a cheater traction control. i had an SCCA spec miata team approach me one time wanting me to build them cheater ECU's that where basically a megasquirt ECU inside the factory ECU enclosure. i built them one and told them i dont want to know what their doing with it and i hold no responsibility if they got caught doing what i thought they where going to do with it. all these teams will cheat to get an edge over the others if they know they can get away with it because its hard to detect radical electronic modifications especially if they are hidden by the factory car manufacturer.

oh and the spec miata team did do what i thought they was going to do with it and got caught running that ECU on their car. someone decided the ECU needed changes mid race and a track official seen them hooking a laptop to the ECU in the pits and making changes. that got them flagged and penalized lol. if i had thought about it i should have added a bluetooth to serial converter inside the ECU so that they didnt have to get close to the car to make changes lol. the lesson i learned is cheaters never win and play by the rules or they will eventually catch you.

If you have DBW you can implement TC without wheel speed sensors.
Just set a reasonable limit on RPM rate rise... Not exactly difficult to filter what is normal acceleration and what is traction loss.

Thats hillarious!! Spec miata is about the last thing on the planet that needs tc.
What are they running nowadays, 125-130 whp?

The car that won the runoffs in 06 was like 116whp iirc  ;D
I think the big thing back then was calibrating the flow sensor and swapping around ecus till you found one with the highest rev limit. Not sure why/how that worked.

The reason they wanted that ECU was because there was a sort of factory flaw in all the ECU's that when coolant temp above 180 deg F it pulled like 8 to 10 degrees of timing out of the car so they wanted to change that so that there was no timing loss regardless of coolant temp. from what i was told they cured that problem with the MS3X cheater ECU and than got greedy and started playing with the timing and fuel mapping which lead to them getting busted.

Keeping cts down was something we always kept an eye on in the Playboy cup mx5's.
I think I heard they busted some guys a while back for swapping sensors or resistors or something.

Funny what some guys will do. I remember one car getting into trouble for running rubber washers on the knock sensor to deaden it.

I am interested in knowing how this can be achieved. Care to share, or mention a module I can look at?

All you need to do is a map with maximum allowed RPM/sec with the axes being selected gear and current engine RPM.
Populate with values that can never be exceeded in normal driving and voila, you have wheelspin detection. Then limit tq closed loop until the values are below threshold again.

I suppose my question was more geared toward whether there already being a map/maps that I could work with to achieve this result in a stock binary. What you describe makes it sound like the routine/map would need to be created to accomplish this.