NefMoto

Hi, Im soon about to tune my Me7.1.1 St10  for E85 and Turbo.. I have a file for E85 today thats very very basic. Im gonna start to make a new tuned file from scratch.

Now the question is: On the internet I can find relatively cheap tuned file for my engine for the normally aspirated. They give me 18hp+ and 25Nm+. My illusion is that this tune is probably optimized on a dyno to achieve this result. So what do you experts think.. Is it worth it to first buy this NA tune (40EUR) as a good base before I start to edit this tune for turbo and E85. These 18+hp tunes must have more optimized timing and so on right?

 

LOL seriously?

If they can give you 18hp, you can do it too.  I'm going to put it out there that their numbers are pulled from their anus, though.

Do you really think anyone selling a tune for 40 EUR will really give you 18 HP and that for 40 EUR you're going to get a file that has been worked on on a dyno?

That, and the fact that they will likely have mashed the ++++++++ button re:timing. Forced induction conversions love that.

SMH

Read up on the differences between NA tuning and FI tuning.  This forum has great resources and several referenced books to bring you up to speed.  An FI setup is not going to like all the timing that was used to extract the extra power from that NA setup. So no, its probably not a good start even if the numbers they gave were credible.

Well i was thinking about the low load areas.. and not the high powerband.. well thanks for answers :)

Also, consider that properly tuning the VVT on these must be done on a dyno as well, and will not even be remotely similar to produce peak output between the setups.

Well most tunes that are to be really really good need a dyno in most cases..  But when i tuned my Audi S2 i made a really really good tune without turbo load. Then when I squeezed out everything that was possible i started to add boost. So my idea was to get as much as possible out of this tune NA.. Well some say that this tune probably is not made on a dyno this cheap..  Well My friend has an S4 made by APR... If i want that tune I simply go out to his car and READ up the fil or just download that VAST tuned file that someone uploaded couple weeks ago into this forum.. bingo bango done.. So -adam in many cases people steal tuned files and call it their own and sells it for less money..

ddillenger do you have any link or tips for tuning VVT on these? I mean i have all the stuff that i need t tune my car but just want to get my hands on some "Known" stuff about these cams and so on.. VVT is new to me.

Is it an idead to start a project thread here instead maybe?

 Minus 6hp I think one of those tunes read on the local dyno here!

As for VVT - err, was mainly done for low end response, there's the change over barrel function to take into account in terms of helmholtz air flow or if you are using a srim etc, various other areas to take into account, added some of the functions below.

Oops. Hold on, uploaded some of the wrong ones!

P.S. If you are wanting to know about VVT tuning on these, you need to understand the importance of peak torque values, the variable resonance inlet mani is obviously better than one without but you'll be shifting the peak torque values higher under FI so if you retain it then it's a question of changing it all to be suitable to the likely or actual new values - no point having the mani change over still aimed at peak torque at 3500rpms when it's now at 5000rpm's! Of course you're talking FI so it is forced but you always want laminar flow at the end of the day instead of turbulent and if you change to a short runner due to the oem being plastic and popping under higher boost, what peak torque values are those runners and plenum volume best suited to, what turbo etc you using, boost etc and what effects on peak torque/torque structuring will this have......

If you want to do it all properly that is!

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=364482&f=1

http://www.academia.edu/9785726/Development_of_Continuously_Variable_Intake_Manifold_for_Formula_Student_Racing_Engine

http://www.endtuning.com/intakesystems.html

Ahh That was a realy good answer :)

You are correct im not running the plastic manifold anymore. This means also that i dont have the variable intake routes. Today im experiencing BIG turbo lag and I suspect that this has to do with the overlap? I looked into my VVT maps today and im trying to understand them. I can post them to explain better later. Is it better to deactivate them than to have them active? By that i mena have them at 0" all the time.

I found these maps.. for Intake and exhaust cam... Are these the maps to edit to adjust the VVT ? Is th red areas when the CAM opens more or closes ?

This is a list of VR6/R32 twin VVT main maps not including any 1x1's or diagnostic ones.

Jesus.. looks like I could spend half of my life just studying those maps and what they do..  But I can imagine that if one know how to tune these there is power to gain..

Cant I just simply disable them or something.. probably not :(

You can disable them, sure. Or you could take advantage of the available overlap to help spool and performance.

Tuning a VR is difficult. Tuning a turbocharged conversion is exceedingly difficult. Have you considered starting with the basics? Maybe work with a factory turbocharged model for a while, see how everything works and fits together before attempting this?

I don't mean to be rude, but the questions you've asked thus far indicate you have no clue what you're getting into. It's a bit upsetting for me to see. Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. That's what I'd do. You on the otherhand were just born, and managed to enter a marathon.

2nd. You're absolutely insane to try adding a turbo to a non-FI system. It is NOT a good place to learn how things work.

?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7074206-Jim_Coupe-3-2-Turbo-build/page2

http://www2.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31280&start=100

http://www1.garaget.org/archive/178/177507/287346/287346-2710675.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlaiUZHGr5k

Please explain what you mean with its insane to adding turbo to an FI car?  And ddilenger What do you mean "Just been born"?

They're probably getting at the fact that you have to learn PID controls, master variables, add lot's of maps then get around any coding problems etc which is on top of learning the actual ecu's functions and maps as well.

You know on the forums you've said you're getting fault codes, well when you asked if the cams can be turned off then yes they can using the codewords that each area has. You're using a SRIM also and the fact that you haven't switched off the variable resonance tuning - i.e. charging state of the valves and change-over functions, tells me that this is likely still running and needs to be switched off.

In terms of maps and functions, there's a touch over 200 in total that things like the 20vt has over the NA ones.

New, inexperienced.

It's not an insult, just a statement of fact. You're asking if an NA file would be a good start for your turbo project. Before even attempting this, you should be able to answer these questions yourself. Jumping in without understanding how tuning FI differs from NA is a terrible idea.

Also, for the record, (not directed at you):

Any threads that I see that encourage bad behavior, such as stumbling through things without doing the due dilligence will be removed.

To a NON force induction car (stock)

The answer should be obvious.

Well.. The links that I posted above are all my builds and they were Non Forced induction before..  Please feel free to read my build threads that i posted above if you want to know how to do it.. Theres many ppl who have followed my build and did the same. Also did the same with my 2.3 20V audi build @motorgeek forum..

The question i had was answered, Thanks!.. I will simply flatten out my VVT map.. 
I cant believe why all this... "You where just born" stuff came from hehe.. but im ok with that... people makes mistakes somethimes and makes assumptions..  I have actuallay converted 6 cars now from NA to FI.. Using VEMS and Megasquirt.  Now im here and to learn Bosch me7 and hoping to get constructive help.. My 3.2 VR6 is already runing now pretty ok FI right now i just have to close the Exhaust valves earlier to get better boost response.

I can make a thread about how i tuned my NA 3.2 VR6 here later when i get everything into place.

A "build" is not motronic tuning.

You'll find it very different from VEMS and MS, particularly if you are starting with a motronic ECU that was never FI to begin with.

You've said on Vortex that you are using a professional's tune too on the car already? So disregard the codeword bit unless you are going to use a stock NA file in which case it will need to be switched off now you're using a srim, as too anything else you've changed/removed.

It seems to be the point of this thread is for us to all recognize how great you are, rather than to help you to understand the finer points of what you are wanting to do.



If you were truly as experienced as you claim, you wouldn't have considered asking if buying a non turbo tune file was a good starting point. You'd have recognized that the timing would be far too agressive to run any sort of boost, or that VVT would be tuned incorrectly. Shit, these are just common sense things not specific to what you are doing at all. This looks past the fact that any 40 dollar file you find is likely going to be utter horseshit.

As for just "Flattening out the VVT map", I don't recall seeing anyone tell you to do that. If they did, that advice should be ignored. You should consider reading up on camshaft design in regards to forced induction engines prior to making any decisions.


I know a guy that has trouble dressing himself. Even he can make standalones run fairly well. If you want a place for posturing, This isn't it.

Also Jim - although you can slave gasses well for spool etc as mentioned, you can go overboard whereby the mixture can actually get dragged out of the cylinder pre ignition because the valve is open too long so it's not just a case of maxxing it out or it'll go straight out the exhaust port!

If you are going to do an FI map from an NA ecu there are huge changes that need to be made, especially with the changes you do - aggressive timing for NA compared with FI, things like switching off the SU/Inlet - Intake manifold functions, can have cam timing on/off, mainly works for FI and major modded NA cars though due to the peak torque values/change over functions being mapped and set up for the OEM values, LDR or Boost control maps and functions are extensive but again that can also depend on what parts you are using etc........... a huge amount of work for you ahead, maybe years but learn from all these on here!

Thanks for the answers. I guess there is nothing at all to gain from a dyno´ed NA tune then. I thought i could use some from the low load areas. My ignition is backed alot in the high load areas today and the fueling is good. Just have to keep on working with this tune that i have.