NefMoto

For 2.7t M-box, KFVPDKSD/E are never below 0.96... what am I missing?

ETA:

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9221.msg112547#msg112547

You prob spotted this already, but Ive been trying to get my head around this stuff lately so here is a pic.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lWKBIWh8zCQ/Vis7-vr2CyI/AAAAAAAADOw/O7cUsgWPD6E/s912-Ic42/kfvpdks.JPG)

I dont know wtf Im doing, lol, but this what it is looking like to me:

The white area is where the turbos will make the req pr all by themselves, so we need to control airflow with the tblade?

The gray area is where the turbos need help to meet the req pr, so open the tblade and feed them wgdc?

Tried a few different ways of changing that axis.
1st, multiply ori by a factor.
2nd, back 6psi out of the ori and insert the new wg cracking psi for each value.
3rd, starting at the original pr and ramping up through the new (in the pic).

The 1st was ok, the 2nd seemed a little better, but the 3rd pretty much felt like the wrong way.

Thinking the next go-round is going to be the 2nd method of changing that axis, and take a stab at making the white area look more like what (I think) f21s should do. Which will prob screw things up worse than I already have  ;D

Yes.

Thanks man!
Nice to hear I may be on the right track. Finally  ;D


Thinking about changing the rpm axis in kfvpdks instead of changing the values in the table.
Doing this always makes me nervous as I never know if anything else uses those axis and dont want my car going raging bull on a busload of schoolkids.

Something like this is what I am imagining will be closer to what my turbos do

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pwiwBF-4Ntc/VivLVdydFTI/AAAAAAAADPI/pAUFFn3blGo/s797-Ic42/kfpdks2.JPG)


I have also upped WDKUGDN a little as you mentioned earlier (I think up was the right direction anyway).
Car runs on a 4bar and I have a 3bar in the intake mani and logging to one of the rear 02s.
Thinking I will unplug the n75 and go drive around for an hr or so to get some data to fine tune these maps.

A pull or 2 should be good enough to get in the neghborhood on the PVDKS stuff, But I have a feeling WDKUGDN is going to be a bit more fun  :P

I think I am going to have to do that one the cave man way, lol
Order it by rpm in excel,
Add another column that = (charge psi / map)
Prune out the data at the WDKUGDN rpm points +/-100rpm or so,
Should be able to put this in an ecuxplot scatter and see whereabouts the (charge psi / map) is = ~1 (tblade is not a restriction).

I am having hard time getting this 100% myself as well.

Those axis values does not make any sence for PJk04s. Hense it is very hard to determine what factor i need to multiplie axis with to get my RS6turbos with 16 psi spring pressure and 13psi cracking pressure.
I followed Julex explanation, but it does not get 100% smooth.
I have tried many diff factors.
My WDKUGDN is perfect if that helps.
 

13psi is a PR of 1.9.

I have no idea what I'm looking at in there in your maps.

That is rs4 551k ori maps.
Exactly my point. Those maps does not make sence as 551m maps do.
13psi - yes it is 1.9 pr.
I used that and calculated factor 1.9/0.984. This is the right way to do as i understand and still not perfect. Getting some kind of surge, hesitation. Very irritating.

PRJ mentioned earlier (in this thread iirc) that the rs4 uses a different strategy in this area and he has to work mojo to convert it to the s4 mbox strategy.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=4381.msg43866#msg43866

The difference is only in CWPLGU:
CWPLGU = 0
for example used in RS4 and rarely in 1.8T Ecus (TT Quattro Sport): plgrus_w = Output of KFPLGU/B
vpssplg = pssol_w/plgrus_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so cracking pressure is ratio = 1

CWPLGU = 1
most 1.8T use this config: plgrus_w = pu_w
vpssplg = pssol/plgrus = pssol_w/pu_w. vpssplg is the axis for KFPVDKSE/D, so ambient pressure is ratio = 1

i also find it way more comfortable to switch it to 1.

So I should switch CWPLGU = 1 and proceed with PR factor multiplication as Julex described in 551M box?

You wouldn`t have adress to CWPLGU in RS 551K box as i dont have it defined in my kp?

Most of those type of codewords are compile time.

Does not exist in RS4, it's hardcoded.
It's already fixed in your basefile.

Also, BEL files require a similar hack. I can post it if anyone needs it. Mine is a touch different then prj's, but both functional.

Please do DD.  I have a pair TM5+ turbos going on my allroad in the upcoming weeks and will need to sort this.

Made some changes today and it felt like a huge jump in the right direction.
Might just be in my head, but seems like the wheels are reacting much more in line with what I am doing with my right foot.

I thought I was making too much psi at first, but then I realized that I just couldnt see req psi because it was directly under my map sensor line in visual logger.
Map is pretty much dead on req, but not sure if it is charge psi that should be following req. Will look at what vars I am logging and maybe change them up tonight.

Upped WDKUGDN just a little to allow for the 12psi gates. I just took a guess here in the areas that the f21s will make more than the k03s.

Changed both axis in in the KFVPDKS maps to something that seemed more appropriate.
The vpssplg axis I changed with an excel calculator contraption I made up to help visualize the changes and keep myself from chasing my tail.
The rpm axis was just a guess.
The values in KFVPDKSD were changed based on an n75 unplugged hammer down pull.
The values in KFVPDKSE are based on the new KFVPDKSD, and tried to mimic the differences between two in the ori 551m file. So ya, just a guess  ;D

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8yzNEw6M81U/Vi7SY3pIeuI/AAAAAAAADPk/6PPiaEu0Fmg/s832-Ic42/kfpdks1.JPG)


Here is the ghetto calculator I used for the vpssplg axis. I used the 3rd method here.

Nice work man..


I'm still confused as to what the WDKUGDN changes should represent... :/

WDKUGDN is the throttle angle at a certain rpm where the throttle plate is no longer a restriction to air flowing into the intake mani.

I'm not sure if I understand it correctly, but this is why I did what I did.
Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, 'cause there is a good chance of that  ;D

I added a few degrees to open it up a little because 12psi gates are going to be pushing more airflow through there than the stock 6psi gates.

The throttle is only opening to WDKUGDN in areas on the KFVPDKS maps that are <.95.
When you cross over into an area that is >=.95, the throttle blade sorta changes strategies and opens up more.

If you leave WDKUGDN stock with gates set higher, there will be a bit of air backing up behind the throttle blade that the ecu is not expecting.
When you cross over from a .94 area to a .95 area, the throttle is going to open and this extra air is going rush in unexpectedly.
You may feel this while slowly rolling into the pedal. When it crosses over, you might feel 1 quick surge as that air rushes in.

edit to reflect fr numbers instead of 551m

Ok. Thanx.
Base file i use is org RS. Nothing is fixed here.
But i think i got my head around this now.

On my Jetta 1.8t F21, I've only tuned the KFVPDKS axis, and I have been very happy with those changes as it were.  After reading your description on what WDKUGDN does, I will go in and play with that a bit too.

My understanding (which cant be that wrong regarding my calcs):
The term "ungedrosselt" (="unthrottled") refers to the point where the opening area of the Throttleblade does not limit the gas-exchange of the engine anymore. But from a pure "mechanical" point of view ( = 100% rl) and has nothing to do with the boost you are aiming at.

The calculation for a 1.8T Engine for example:
Engine Displacement = 1781cc
nCyl = Number of Cyl = 4
Vcyl = Volume per Cyl: 445cc
rhoL = air density: 1.2 kg/m³   = 0.0000012 kg/cm³


using the equation:
mAir[kg/h] = Vcyl[cc]*rpm[1/min]*rhoL[kg/cc]*60*nCyl delivers this theoretical 100%rl. All you have to do now is multiply it by 0.95 taking PSPVDKUG into account.

(http://www.proboost-engineering.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/massflow1.jpg)

then you have to calculate the corresponding throttle value to these mass air flows using KFWDKMSN. I also used excel for this.
The calculated Values vs. Values out of the original File of WDKUGDN:

(http://www.proboost-engineering.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/graph.jpg)

As you can see the fault is around 1% between 2000 and 5000 rpm. The error @ 1000 rpm is 3 degree Throttle Value and @ 6000 rpm its 2 degree which seems to be ok for my definition....

But why use ambient for air density? Shouldn't the density be at wastegate cracking pressure?

I would hate to see the math needed to calculate that throttle angle  :o

Im pretty sure I wont understand it, but might be interesting to see if you post it up.

I don't think that's right. PSPVKDUG = .95 so we're talking about a range of (.96-.95)/(1-.95) through 1, or 0.2  through 1.0, so i think it is more properly stated that it is proportional to where the map output lies between 0.95 and 1.0

I did see that proportional part in there, but hasnt clicked for me yet   ???

Is your description based solely on whats in the fr and 1.8 numbers?
Or are you trying to apply the fr to the (different) 2.7 numbers?

OK, I think your description was enough of a kick in the butt to jar some brain cells loose and get this to click for me  ;D

I'll use the values straight from the fr here to keep things consistent.
Will also make some of the other numbers up to keep the math easy.



Say we are at a pedal pos that req's a pr that puts us on a cell in KFVPDKS that is .95, and at 60% throttle (WDKUGDN at that rpm?).

The .95 in KFVPDKS being <= to PSPVDKUG(.95) means that the turbos can make the req pr on wg psi without any help from the n75.

I think the throttle will be at WDKUGDN here with no reason to open it anymore because it is not a restriction at this angle. It is allowing it to give everything it can on wg psi. (.95 is actually right where the throttle changes strategies, but the formula for the new strategy cancels itself out at this point)



Now, say we give a little more pedal, move to a higher req pr, and land on a .98 cell in KFVPDKS.

To make this new req pr (that is now above wg psi), the ecu needs to start feeding wgdc.

The throttle also needs to open a little more to stay out of the way of the increased amount of incoming air. That formula is how it does this smoothly on its way to 100%.
This is how it works, or at least my best guess anyway  ;D
We were at 60% throttle. That leaves 40% remaining (on its way to 100%) as the Residual Throttle Value.
With the formula (.98-.95)/(1-.95), we get .6 (or 60%).
60% of our Residual Throttle Value (40%), is 24%.
Now we add that 24% to our original throttle value of 60% (WDKUGDN?), for a new target throttle of 84%

From what I can tell from logging, for higher PRs, a reduced WDKUGDN might be needed; it doesn't seem that at higher boost, the throttle is doing enough to prevent boost flutter when req load is near wg cracking. Can anybody else confirm this? With the WGDC at 10%, and stock WDKUGDN, boost is still building with vpsspls_w at minimum (.95) and throttle plate at 40%

Anybody else see this?

Also, the active range of vpsspls_w is definitely .95 to 1.0, where 1.0 is entirely wg controlled ingested air and .95 is entirely throttle plate controlled ingested air.

Sweet, this cleans it up a bit and should make it easier to find in a search.

If you still havent noticed, the 2.7 is .97, not .95 as in the fr.
Prob a good idea to use the fr numbers when we can to keep things consistent with the document, but something we need to keep in mind.

What I am trying to make go away is chirping/hooting at ~5psi when you are at a constant load that will hold the motor at a fairly steady rpm. Like going up a hill or something.

Playing with this stuff def seems to make the transition into boost much smoother and more controllable. I think I have it close enough that the throttle plate is steady and not what is causing it. The car drives and responds to pedal input almost as smoothly as stock anyway.

I am currently leaning toward what snowtrooper said about not asking more of the turbos than they can reasonably supply. We may just be asking too much of the turbos down low and pushing them into surge. They rip through just fine on a hammer down pull, but seems like they are just not able to sustain that amount of load in a steady state. But, as with pretty much everything I post here, Im not really sure if that is how it actually works  ;D
Seems like its leaving a little on the table, but will pull ldrxn down a little and see if anything changes.

Here is a old pic.
I dont remember much about it, but the throttle blade was steady at first, and joined the party where you see it change toward the right side.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QtcXoLimMRw/VirT_0AJVeI/AAAAAAAADMo/Low6ZjYtOlc/s800-Ic42/flux.JPG)

Here is an interesting one.
I spotted the file name on that graph so I hunted it down and took another look at it.

Looks like boost reg goes active, but seems like something is holding the throttle down?
Would think that the throttle blade should be heading toward 100% in a hurry once boost reg comes online.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QzX3fKaIjnA/VjbMDEekF8I/AAAAAAAADQk/VRq3O41oDbA/s800-Ic42/funnyflux.JPG)

I should be seeing this car in the not so distant future so will have to try the things I have done to mine to see what it feels like.


PS: Hey Nye, any way to make ecuxplot hold the black background? Easier for my old eyes to see the lighter color lines  ;D

If nyet makes ecuxplot look like that I will kill someone.

Damn, you know where I live   :o

Not change it, just wondering if there is a cfg or some other way to save it.
Usually only looking at a few squiggly lines at a time, but the lighter color lines are tough for me to see against the gray background.

Well I think I stared at that graph long enough to to maybe get an idea of what is going on there  ???


Underscaled maf is outputing a lower airflow than what is actually going on.

This lower airflow value is causing WDKMSN to give a lower throttle angle than would be needed for the actual airflow?

This throttle angle is lower than WDKUGDN and somehow interfering with the mechanism that would normally take us to 100% throttle when boost reg comes on?

The ecu thinks it is perfectly fine at this throttle angle, but trying to run that pr at that airflow is bad juju for the turbos?

I think we could open the throttle a at a lower pr and still get the same amount of air to the motor (load) and keep the turbos happy. That might be back to WDKMSN though? I havent had any luck (other than bad) playing with that map ;D Will have to think about it a little bit.

Dark or light background is no big deal but some colors like light green should be banned from the lines. Depending on lcd quality in laptop those are difficult to see agains white/grey background especially when it is daylight while sitting in car.

Agreed. Fuck that light green.

yea i need to go through the color array used for graphing.

Fuck light blue too!  Fuck it right in the A.

I think if WDKUGDN doesnt represent the lowest angle where the throttle blade is not a restriction with boost reg off, things are going to get funny when boost reg comes on and you transition from wg psi to something higher.

Too low and I think you will feel a surge as it transitions, too high and I think you will get a bit of a deadband feeling in the pedal.



I would agree on the <.95 stuff.
But, I would say that >= .95 is entirely wg control. The (.95-.95)/(1-.95) is only there to keep the throttle blade from being a restriction in a manner that smoothly moves it to 100%.

Yea. Still messing with it. I'm back to stock WDKUGDN now and things are working fine.

If you have a log of an n75 unplugged run from a low rpm, I can plug what I have been doing into a 551m file if you want to see what difference it makes.
Should be easy enough to copy over into your file for a quick test.

Would you post it here?

I just adjusted the kfvp axis and boost was cool ran well with the etm pipe missing too lol

Ive got srm k24's coming my way. Ill be using the 551r. If youre willing to share the workaround id really appreciate it.

Here you go.

imo WDKUGDN should not need changed unless major work in that hardware area is done, I think displacement might have an input too, either that of different calibrators, minor differences between 2.4 and 2.5L on Volvo both end @ 50% I went from a 0.4 bar wastegate to a 1 bar WG and the transition was perfectly controlled via the mentioned axis.

The way I look at is:

If 30% plate is the lowest point where 6psi of airmass can flow without restriction at 3000rpm,

then turning the boost up to 12psi at 3000rpm will cause the plate to become a restriction due to the increased airmass flowing.

This increased airmass would require the blade to be opened slightly to not be a restriction.

I dont know though, maybe the larger airmass is packed down to the same volume as it was before and doesnt have a problem getting through the same plate angle.


*numbers are not accurate and just throw in as placeholders*

This is org 551R file.
Something i am missing here?

From beemer FR

WDKUGDN 100% for disable the function.
Application: throttle blade angle at begin ps/pvdk >= 0.95. ps = intake manifold pressure
pvdk = pressure upstreams of throttle blade

Can only see it being useful for custom work in that area?  you'll need a map sensor to calibate it

more:


APP FUEDK 6.20 Application hint
KLAF: see calculation of engine load
KFWDKMSN: inverse of KFMSNWDK
Initial Values:
CWMDAPP= wdksp w=
0 wdksgv w, sofern nmot>0
2 FPWDKAPP(wped w)
4 WDKSAPP, sofern nmot>0
FPWDKAPP wped w [%] 1.5 6.25 11.0 15.63 23.43 31.25 39.0 46
wdksv w [%] 1.7 7.1 11.16 15.25 2.0 31.0 39.0 47
WDKSAPP 2 %
WDKUGDN 100% for disable the function.
Application: throttle blade angle at begin ps/pvdk >= 0.95. ps = int
pvdk = p
TFUPS: 0 s
TFUPI: 2 s
DPUPS: >=250 hPa
TWDKSV: psspvdk w 0.990 0.992 0.996 0.998 1.0 1.02
0.01 0.1 0.15 0.2 0.25 0.0
NDRLS: -500%/s

Yes. The ability to look past simple map changes and into the ASM where this hack is executed.

0x8E75E

yoink. thanks dd.

Anytime.

I will give you that one, Thanx for the adress.

Just fucking with you. Sometimes my replies come across as assholish. It wasn't the intention.

You are trying too hard. I know you are a teddy bear ;). I have seen the line but i did not know what it represents
You must explain now when you have offended me.

With what wdkugdn does in there, I would say changing the psi that it is dealing with is custom work.


I would agree that messing with it might not be necessary for most and would only be a minor change anyway.
But, the further your cracking psi deviates above the calibration, the more important it may become.

If I get bored I may have to try the 100% thing just to see what it does.
My guess is as long as wdkugdn is larger than the actual point of restriction, the only thing it might affect is wear and tear on the tbody.

  that's my thoughts too as mentioned.   The most important part imo is the axis recalculated.   I went from 0.4 bar to 1bar actuator and it was sweet as mentioned 5120 PID dialled in and it limped 69 miles home with the IC to the pipe off lol steady 60 mph.

Bigger/custom  intake manifolds perhaps?  I'll trace the code tomorrow to see if it sheds any more light.

You must never work in IT lol

Ha, I know from first hand experience, that IT folk don't get jokes.  :)

True :)

I would like to use that workaround on the 5120 551R file. Is it possible to transfer to another bin? Just 0x8E75E-0x8E76D....? Theres more than the stuff at 0x8E75E modified in comparison to a stock file so i was a little gun shy of trying it.
'

Yes if you disassemble both and the code is the same

I looked into this recently and the code equates for that

For those that get it close with the axis change, adjusting the boost PID in the affected rpm helps to smooth out light throttle cruising. Less P term and more D term will make it perfect.

I agree

Along with tuning WDKUGDN in these areas and actually knowing what your setup is capable of - not demanding to much to low. I have managed to get rid of this completely. Nice and smooth.

Lots of talk about nothing. LDRPLS is there to simply tell the ECU which region of the range is controlled by the throttle and which is controlled by the N75.
All that is needed is measure base boost and fill the tables correctly, to make sure that the throttle is used for filling control where plsol < base boost and the N75 used with the throttle slammed open where plsol > base boost.
That's all there is to it. Seriously.

Am I right in thinking that if the inlet system and wastegates are stock

If msdk doesn't follow actual maf readings

I just need to raise wdkugdn where it's too low?
Stock TT 018ca file, msdk has a massive gap from 2000-5000rpm and then goes over maf readings from 5000-6700 and starts oscillating

Hi,

Looking at this from a Volvo 2.0t lpt:

Where in your opinion does the WG cracking pressure appear to be?

Surely not PR 1.00?

Not possible to tell because in this file CWPLGU is 0, so the cracking pressure is not encoded into this map.

Just looked into this. The scaling factor in most maps is wrong; also, there is simply not enough precision to enter the correct multiplier of 0.00305185. The only reasonable solution is to use 0.003053 and precision 1.