NefMoto

Hi

Finally got my hybrid turbo on my 1.8T and running today...so took it out to get the boost maps setup to a safe level.   Using open loop method.

Got the car running nicely at 22-23psi on the gauge with -5.25CF with no methanol added.  So was happy with that result....turned the meth on and this dropped to -3CF as expected.

However, after a couple of runs, the timing CFs jumped to -8.25CF with no map changes, which I found odd considering no changes.

Couple of logs to show this.

Anyone any ideas?

IMHO you should be tuning for 0 CF under average conditions. Also be aware everytime you clear faults/flash a new file the knock trims get reset. Just making sure you're comparing apples to apples and not with corrections already applied. Didn't look at logs because smartphone.

anyone?

Are you misfiring? It looks like you are.

Nope,  no misfiring on them logs.


Did notice a little slight miss once or twice accelerating in 5th at heavy load.  but was once in a blue moon.

I am going to stand by my initial assessment.

I think you are misfiring.

How is your real AFR and why are you requesting so much load?

Open loop.  So the ldrxn is up and out of the way,  and let the boost duty/map control it.

Definitely no misfiring on them logs.  if there is...its so minute I cant even feel it.

Did you look at the RPM and timestamp?

is it ok 27 deg camshaft angle?

rpm + camshaft angle over time.  VVT until 6k?

Looks like a bad ass setup.  details?

True that they get cleared when you reflash, but clearing the faults won't reset the dynamic knock control.

However, disconnecting the battery for 10 sec or so will do so.

Just make sure to always log dynamic knock control as a matter of cause. That way you have that information if you need to reference it.

Odd,  I can see the very slight drop in rpm's at certain points, but only about 40rpms.....however, putting the timestamp in the log in ECU plot aswell doesnt equal a straight line which you would expect if it logs the time properly.... some places the time goes back!  (see the picture)

VVT map is set to switch over at 5900rpm,  its the way its tuned and gives gains in the setup,  granted that switchover point was for my old K04-064 the theory is still the same and works on all 1.8T.

Newest log.

27 degrees is not normal you know. It's a binary tensioner. On or off, 0 or 22. A degree or so deviation is to be expected. 5 on the verge of failure.

I gathered that.  We found it out at original mapping the first time when it was constantly throwing a VVT setpoint error.

Currently sat at -7KW on block 093 in VCDS.

Why haven't you fixed it then?

Because he thought it was his vernier, IIRC.

I did look into it.

Originally had a vernier on there....replaced for stock pulley and code persisted.  Cams lined up 100%, 16 rollers, timing bottom end and top marks were perfect.

Looking at it now, and putting a second tensioner in to try fix the problem,  I can have the 2 marks lined up with 16 rollers,  but then if you allow the VVT tensioner to fill with oil,  It can move the inlet camshaft 1 tooth forwards so that it no longer lines up with the hole.   Push the chain back down and the markers on the cams/caps line up again.

So im stuck until I can find out where the chain needs to be to be timed up...since it can differ by quite a bit

If anyone has a 1.8T with VVT to hand....can you please tell me what value you get in Block 093 of VCDS.  3rd box.  Relates to the position of the VVT.  Mines at -8KW :(

-7kw
replaced all timing and vvt, double checked, still the same
ive seen -2, -6, -8 at various cars

Strange.  Odd that others have a similar value.

Heres mine with VVT unplugged
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/Unmapped1.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/Unplugged2.jpg)

Here it is plugged in.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/PLugged1.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/PLugged2.jpg)

Just seems strange.  Wonder if it has anything to do with the timing/knock CFs etc

Mines at -9

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160124/31fbacda435216b862b56211ef264b77.jpg)

093 is the difference between the cams and the crank I believe.

You don't understand. Regardless of what it says there, the change should be ~22. It should not be 22, then jump to 27.

Maybe pay a professional to sort this at the base then tweak your way from there?

Bad tensioner?

I tried another tensioner, but didnt get the car out to log it.

My tuner says the value in 093 should be near to 0.

Will drop the other tensioner in and give the car a log see what it does, but the data shows timing could be out, although I am certain its right.

Are these new tensioners you're trying?

It looks like tensioner loosing it and streching too far. As somone said, it looks near a failure.

I agree with your tuner!!!

2 used tensioners on each.

Noticed the timing could be out ever so slightly at the crank.  Got a new belt to try it and see what happens.

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12642738_10207821884440470_5587130014286697619_n.jpg?oh=9521907d3a552b49b0a3d43a187bf8b8&oe=56FF0F8E)

Go new or go home.  :)

Also, the crank damper usually has a good amount of play even when all 4 of the bolts are without play. Being off by a whole tooth looks like a lot, but it depends whether you're in the middle of the slack the damper has. I assume the pic is with the cam lined up perfectly?

Cams are perfect.

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12642805_10207821884560473_3947604432983148637_n.jpg?oh=eebc9b1f41ee6f971a0b6eb960fa365e&oe=5741F557)

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12549008_10207821884840480_4657450950912143640_n.jpg?oh=e23ff3a938f1da5884e0b86e22f19b32&oe=5739476C)

Well the timing is bang on...so next step to fit a vernier and tweak it until it gets 0KW

Fit a vernier were??
What's the procedure??

Surely easy way to see that is to flatline the whole VVT map and see what it does?

Surely the correction factor should still be 0KW.....even on idle.  where mine is -8KW

+/- 4 is acceptable. However you don't know where the error is. Between the cams from a bad tensioner, or the cam/crank correlation.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/372FBB4E-8B2D-46C3-8F6A-AF6D23705D3D.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/CFF3B682-68F1-481D-B7B9-CE3C8DFD62B6.png)

Sorted.

Be interesting to see how it drives on the road and how log looks after.

What have you done?
And how??

Fitted an adjustable pulley and tweaked it until it read 0KW/CF

oh youre cheater!!!

How?

The timing marks were bang on physically.  68teeth between the 2 points means the belt cant be out

Imagine counting 68 teeth.  SACK THAT.

So instead of actually working out where the issue is.... You have bodged it? And this will likely be the reason it's in this state in the first place.

Hardly. But what else do you suggest so it's not 'bodged?

Timing marks bang on between the belt.    Exhaust cam marker lined up to the cap.   16 links between the chain rollers on inlet-exhaust cam.   Inlet cam markers line up with the exhaust side when the plunger on the tensioner is fully extended.

Care to tell me where it's out?

Dunno, I'm not with your car. But the fact is, you have something wrong. Have you tried a brand new vvt solenoid? Have you tried putting complete stock software back on the ecu to ensure something is not a miss with that? Have you replaced sensors? Have you checked wiring with a speccy to ensure no issues there? Is it possible the cams themselves are defective causing everything else to throw out. It goes on and on.......

Bottom line is, it would be very wise to work out what's wrong before progressing as it will likely cause you other issues later down the line.

I've seen the woodruff keyway break off cam sprockets. The bolt is tight enough to keep it from spinning, but they shift. Might be worth a look.

A few good ideas tbf.  I've just swapped out the ECU because my baro reading was 500, not 1000.  Replaced ECU, fault goes away.  Could be software too, why not try the original file?  Could the ECU be wanting to see a different pickup wheel?  I don't understand why it's so out though.  I'd be amazed if the cams were defective though.

That's a good idea too!

I tried a tensioner, and was still the same...could try it again now I know this setup shows 0Kw on block 093.

A tensioner is £480.....a bit much to be testing stuff.

Will set timing maps bcak to stock and do a log then see what it shows on the VVT changeover map...then back to stock on both.

Perhaps you have one of the other 1x1 or 1 dimensional cam maps out of whack on your tune.

Can you post your tune .bin and the ori .bin?

I've been spending a lot of time lately mapping out previously unknown cam timing maps on both the 3.0 and 4.2 N/A engines. Maybe I'll see something that you overlooked.  

The issue is usually the chain stretching.

Don't bother. The focus here is far too narrow. Ignoring the 5 degree discrepancy in the middle of the fucking pull and instead focusing on an area that means jack shit.

Chain was exact same size as a new one I bought.

Assume you found the issue then?

In a fashion.  Had another lad with the same problem running a thinner Headgasket and a skim and his were -9KW and the timing marks bang on perfectly.  So god knows what it is.

could this be a reason of knocking -> retarding ?

Could well be if things are out

had you try new knock sensor, or new knock wiring?

The 2 knock sensors were brand new dealer items when engine build ~2000miles ago

correct mounted with 20nm

Had chance to have another bit play today.  Car feels looks better.

Couple of logs.

161108.csv is the last run I did with adding a touch timing to the bottom row of the timing maps.

155309.csv is the log I done after I reset the VVT/camshaft map back to stock settings.

160912.csv is a file before I messed around with the engine timing so the value was -8 on block 093.


Whats peoples thoughts?

Anybody any comments?

Are you using an MBC? If so, ditch it.

Also, pull a lot more timing, especially at high load, low rpm

Just open loop boost control.

155309.csv is a log before I done a couple timing changes.  Did notice the higher CFs at low loads on turbo spool, so will probably pull that out a touch.  Top end and midrange seems good though?

Eventually you'll get an over or under boost code.


try to get all CFs zero first.

Then add until you get any cyl non-zero. Stop there.

Im happy with open loop.  Its the way my tuner mapped it originally on the stock anti surge K04-064.  Its a track car so its rarely used, and even then its just on weekends for a drive out.

It'll be going back to them for final tweaks as I dont trust myself when it will be getting hammered round a track for 20mins at a time, so rather know everything is tip top condition.  Just want a safe map and one I can experiment on with what power I can get before finalising it with a tuner.

its 16 rollers with the tensioner at it's fully upright position as if it's full of oil . -9 is too high on standard cams, I have however seen it on performance cams. Mine for instance runs at -11CF and doesn't throw a code

Yeah.  Wonder how much you can be out when the plunger is depressed or fully up.   Sorted now though and checked with VCDS.

Having it at 0* the car was totally different, when the VVT switched over it was like V-tec kicking in,  engine note change and went mental.

Put stock VVT on and boost dropped 2-3psi.....a sign of the engine consuming the air produced by the turbo for less effort :D

Had a look at my timing map last night, noticed it wasnt smooth, so set to work taking a touch timing out on spool 3-4k and smooth it out.

Also noticed that the last 3x rows in the file I pulled off ECU were identical, so set my map the same as this.   I guess this is the ensure that the value does not change from interpolating.

Question....how much does the timing map interpolate and how much can the actual figure for a load/rpm site change?

Linear interpolation


I have no idea what you're asking. If you are asking about map resolution, it's usually 0.75 or 1.25 degrees depending on the file.

YMMV, it is trivial to find out. In winols, +/- key will increment/decrement in minimum steps.

Alternately, look at the scaling of the variable in the map definition. That is LITERALLY the resolution of the map.

For anyone wondering, this is what unfortunately happened to the motor. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160413/d7f1f15d7263e2c2ba9f08e250347c73.jpg)

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

**Sourced from VAG tuning. Net

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

It's just a failed oil cooler hose I thinks.

I dunno the guy put the engine is RIP on his post.

Hopefully it is just a cooler hose, will be interesting to see what power he hits if it's all still running.

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

Was a crap aeroquip hose coming off the oil cooler, throwing oil everywhere.

Made 381bhp and 350ftlbs.  Slightly less torque than last time, and up 21bhp.  Niki couldn't make timing, disabled and attempted to calibrate with det cans etc.  Made very little difference. 

It's a shame, it's a lovely tubby. :(

Aeroquip would have held, it was a rubber hose with those shit spring clips.

He calibrated with det cans and adjusted the knock filter and it's making good power. 380 odd bhp I believe.

That's what I said! :P

Never seen this.

Yeah,  a mocal aeroquip hoses blew off.  3.5L of oil out the engine in less than 5 seconds.

Graph:

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/FF10EB84-5821-4EDC-B6FD-1D5C84E29DD8.jpg)

Awesome gains compared to the non hybrid one...even though the numbers dont tell the same story.  Delta gains of around 30-40bhp across the whole rev range and torque of 25lbft.

Did a quick overlay on it, which kind of shows the difference

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/carsey2006/Overlay.jpg)


Car is bloody awesome to drive. Complete weapon on the road now

Nice power under the curve!

Sent from my E6853 using Tapatalk

Just a dumb question. I was looking at these logs, how is possible to ECU see load above 191?

rl vs rl_w

maybe its just me but 8* at 22+psi and .86L seems pretty hard on a setup regardless haha

also CCT is over advanced for sure