NefMoto

Hi
I need your help.
I have a problem with the HPFP control on a 2.0tfsi engine.
The car has an autotech update internals in its HPFP and update injectors with 175 bar fprv.
The car eat up the camshaft profile of the HPFP so we update to a Dynodrome roller conversion kit.
This kit is different than the normal camshaft to to roller conversion kit since it also included updated hpfp cam loop profile .
http://www.dynodrome.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/12986738_10153953104154003_1566216375_o.jpg

The company that sold as the kit will not give as any support. They are only reply is that the install it and it should work as is with out any special tuning.We are really stuck

As soon as we did the conversion (Major job, we had to take out the camshaft to remove the camshaft hpfp profile and install the new one) we have big problem controlling the hpfp pressure. Pls bare in mind that we paied special attention on the placing of the hpfp cam profile,and we made sure it was on the stock timing.
Our problem is this.
If we are stationary and we slowly press the throttle, the hpfp pressure will follow the requested perfectly up to 4000rpm. Then the pressure will immediately raise to 180 bars and the engine will die ,since the injector we have will get stuck at 155bar plus . the pressure will remain high until it gets back to idle (as the rpm drops, the request is the same as actual -170bar.When it gets to idle the request goes to 50bar and the actual will drop slowly to 50bars) .When the problem happens you can hear noise coming from the hpfp.
If we do the same test on the dyno, with wot 4 gear runs the problem will be the same but it would happen at higher rpms and also the raise of the fuel pressure is more slow. It would eventually get pass 155 bar and the injectors would get stuck making a misfire.
We measure the stroke of the new cam profile for the hpfp and its 5mm which is the same as stock
The profile is different since it looks like it was more duration.We also measure the depth that the piston of the the hpfp travels, inside the hpfp. It had 2mm difference. We made a spacer to get it to work but its still the same problem.
We changed the hpfp with another autotech equip fuel pump and the problem is still there.
We change the fprv to the stock one and still pressure raises .And its not even drops after you lift off the throttle which is really strange. We check the fprv and it works.
We put the stock hpfp on and the car WORKS. The fuel pressure stays where it should be.
Tunning wise I change the stroke, volume and diameter of the hpfp.I did many versions and played a lot with it and nothing changed.
can anyone help out. We are getting 0 support from the seller company and we are really stuck
Is there anything we missed? Do I need to change anything on the tune itself (even though we were told by the company that it works without any change)


 

Where did the 175 valve come from?

Have yo changed the Maxpressure rail map and also the specified pressure maps?

There is a difference between getting creep on the FPV and not having them maps set correctly..

It's possible that the maps that dictate the camshaft angle @ highest lift point need modified. Is the replacement cam lobe a 3 or 4 lobe? If 3 lobe, have you used a dial gauge to ensure the maximum lift of the cam lobe matches stock?

They are 3 lobe and the profile and lift should be the same..

Its a 3 loop with more duration than stock. As i wrote on the original post we measure the stroke of the new cam profile for the hpfp and its 5mm which is the same as stock. Timing wise the lobe max lift is exactly at the same location as the stock one.
Are the maps you talking about DWMSVMN and DWMSVMX ? If so, I already played with them with 0 effect.

Littco ,the 175bar fprv came from the same company that sold as the conversion kit.
I don't understand your statement about the maps been changed. Pls note that the car was already tune and was running fine (except the fact that it would destroy the cam follower) ,with the same hardware except the camshaft to roller conversion. The maps where ,of course, charged so that we would have enough injector duration to get to the  produced 450whp.
We changed to the roller conversion, and with the autotech fuel pump we can not get the car to work.
Pls note that with the stock fuel pump the car runs fine. Is only when we use an update pump that we have problem.
The other thing I dont understand is why I am getting such a high pressure with the stock fprv installed and the maps changed to 110bar requested.

It's not FPRV that controls your fuel pressure.
The actual fuel pressure control valve is located in the HPFP on the low pressure side. That's why ECU needs all the info about HPFP to correctly calculate duty. I strongly believe that either your HPFP is defective or your maps are way off.

EDIT:
Re-read your message.
Are you getting 150+ bars with stock FPRV? How's that even possible? Are you sure that your FP sensor is not faulty?

Exactly. With stock fprv and we tested 3 fprv (2 of them stock), we are getting crazy pressures. It shouldn't be able to go that high.
I asked 155 bar with the stock fprv and I got it all the way to 6000rpm on the dyno .How is that even possible?

For the quantity of the HPFP I used maps VHDP (from 300 to 550) RQUAHDPK (from 18-30) , SKHDPMX (from 5mmto 7mm), Is there any maps I am missing?

Are you sure the N167 valve is working properly? not damaged or broken. this regulates the amount of fuel that gets into the pump, if it's not scaled correctly or faulty then it can simply let all the fuel into the pump without regulation, there will also come a point where the FPRV will not bleed enough fuel off and creep anyway so sky high pressures are seen.

Also maybe your HPFP is just knackered, especially as the stock one was working ok!

This is N167 valve is the one the HPFP?
I already change to another autotech equip complete HPFP and the problem is still there. So its not the pump and not the n167 valve.

I am missing any more maps for the HPFP calibration? I am doing something wrong?

Take a look at modules %AMSV, %VSTMSV and %HDPRSOL in MED9 FR, you might find a clue.
Wish I could be more specific.

Did you tried another hpfp, I've seen some hpfp upgrades that have a slight different measurements than others, try the stock hpfp with a stock frv and request something like 135 and give it a try.

Does the low pressure drop off then the hpfo start to creep?   hpfp control is based around a static low pressure supply.  As the low pressure falls away from demand the hpfp starts to creep up from demand.  Work on low pressure first and high pressure will start to work better.   

You will always get a lift of shoot up in rail pressure due to the massive volumes of fuel moving then stopping and then having to bleed off via a tiny 3mm hole.  To aid this you can drill the outlet on the high pressure valve to make it bigger, but you can only do this to a certain amount, if you go too big the spring will drop out and render the valve fooked

low pressure tips, use a lower demand of 4bar and try yo hold it flat, drill all out all the restrictions on the low pressure line inc the brass fitting on the pump and inside the pump.  This can bring the lpfp driver control down by 20-30%

I was seeing high 5's and low 6's during pulls. This is my current KFNTBKS and it seems happy with unmodified LP hardware. On a pull I see from 4.2-4.8bar which I feel is "stable". KFFLAF is massaged for the TT-RS pump.

Hi guys sorry to bring a post back from the dead but was a solution found for this? Currently having the same problem, any help would be greatly appreciated

ive had this issue before also and it was the position of the lobe on the intake cam for the HPFP. if its even slightly off the ecu cannot control the duty cycle and you will have crazy pressure even with stock FPR. 

Hello all,
I have issue with HPFP on my EA113 with DAZA Turbo.
Setup:
RS3 Injectors - new from dealer
RS3 LPFP with RS3 module - new from dealer
DAZA Turbo - used one
S3 intake cam - new from dealer
HPFP - new from dealer
VIS Internals HPFP - new one Stage 1
175b FPRV Dynodrome (initialy 165b unknown and rs4 140b)
Forged Engine

Car was tuned by very famous polish tuner. The day i picked up from tuner the car it was starting very rough, a lot of black smoke on wot (like TDI) and randomly stuttering/jerking at 5-6k RPM. We did logs that showed Pressure on HPFP drops from requested 140b to 125b on wot and then car Stutters -> he told me go home buy new HPFP ->no changes.

By this time i changed FPRV to 140b RS4 and friend adjusted the soft to request 130b -> Puff car is working perfectly like a charm but requested was 130b while during wot i was getting even 135b. Because of Rs4 valve we had to decrease boost due to lack of fuel.
I bought brand new Dynodrome FPRV 175b and all the problems are back :) We changed only valve, soft was untouched and i have issues with stalling and jerking 5-6k rpm.
It happens even without boost just open TB a little bit on 1st gear to get to 6k rpm and Puuf it stalls. We spent 1 year and still cant solve this... Tuner told me that i lack fuel but i should be able to put 600hp on this fuel system. Dynodrome told me that we cant make a good soft and valve is good...

Logs?

RS4 valve Fuel Logs
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_230_231_ulOPC.html

165B Valve Fuel Logs
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_231_230_H0uCBi7.html

Im waiting for 175b Dynodrome Valve logs but i bet they same as 165b. As you can see 130b is like a wall and when 130b is achived it starts to fall and then car sttuters and Rail goes up

Im trying to get my car back so i can make logs on my side and download software... im getting sick since the car with RS4 valve was running ok with 130b specified however u can see that i get even 140b pressure. When we specified 135b then the car would again stutter/jerk at the same rpm. On the logs we saw that HPFP was pumping 140b and then valve open and stutter.
I believe tuners dont know how to properly tune HPFP (VIS internals, S3 intake cam). I can paypal some1 for help. I have my initial (165b valve) soft on the computer so if any1 wanna look at this please let me know.



I even deleted roller kit and swapped to oem but no changes. By the way my HPFP (new one and old one) is making strage noises like banging with VIS internals only (tried to swap to autotech but no changes).
With oem tappet it is only noticable but with roller it was banging like hell.

A friend of me had the same Problem Same Car same specs … but it was a horrible tuner rpm was limited to 6500 rpm also same Problem like you discribe… did you have a error code in your ecu becuse of fuel? I dont rember the error code … but its not a Hardware fail its a Software fail of your Tuner … really that issue is one to one the same like a friend had he changed the tuner and problem was solved …


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Diferrent tuner, new FPRV and same issues. We cannot make it work on those valves. RS4 works.
I received proposition to buy new Tuned HPFP which can make up to 500 HP with RS4 valve.

I mean if it stalls on idle revving the engine, then you have some shit with the tune.
Maybe stopping to use VCDS and using a real logger can help you, so you can actually see what is going on.

It does not stall on idle.
Its super strange that even no boost no load just 1st gear and go to 6k rpm and it will start to stutter/jerk... I bet that HPFP overshots pressure badly because you can see on logs that i get pressure like 170b.... and thats the reason ecu closes tb i think. Car is standing for 1 month at tuners place and he did not make it work... New tuned HPFP is on my way.
I have a soft with 165b specified for try and we could not pass 4k rpm... full throttle 165b on the rail and car cannot pass 4k rpm just stops.

Stop this shit and log the car properly... thread is waste of time until you do.

i have posted logs
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_015_016_tW9h28.html
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_231_230_H0uCBi7.html
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_115_031_FUqiZ.html
http://vaglogi.pl/log-002_020_031_56B6GZ5.html

I agree with sven77 's previous post.
Your problem lays on the intake cam lobe for the HPFP.
It rotates slightly and as a result you experience fuel pressure overshoot.

Take the camshaft out and check the lobe for correct alignment.
I always weld the lobe after repositioning.

Mk5gt: can you elaborate more detailed on this please? Its it for roller conversion or OEM? I never seen loose lobe on camshaft, but maybe i did not look on some particular detail.

About topic, what about missfires? From logs i see problem only on one then on another cylinder, it can be old tfsi injectors as tends to fail over 140-150bar.  On RS4 prv it works because regulate maximum pressure itself and not over 140. Pressure spikes with stroger PRV will be mostly due missfiring(fuel is not extracted from rail by injector/s as expected by ecu so it fights again HPFP regulation that is not fast enought for this situation)

Guys, dont look at missfires i had bad head springs but now i have bar-tek springs so no more missfires. Injectors are new oem rs3 from audi dealer as all other parts are new, nothing is used one.
My intakae cam is new from audi dealer from s3, we did not touch the lobe.

Why did you send old Logs? Prj say send logs and you have Hardware Changes so new log would be better …

I dont have car at this moment and tuner is not sending me any logs (asked several times).
I sent the newest one i have. This issue is with me for one year and only on RS4 Valve the car was running ok.
Guy who build my car said that Dynodrome Valve i have is broken and it should work without any software changes.
130b specified rail on 175b valve and car is stalling/jerking (can send video), swap to rs4 valve and works perfect. 

I think it is more than clear what the problem is. Find a car with a working 175b valve and change it for a test...

It does not matter which pump u are using.(roller or oem)

The lobe (with the 3 edges) in the intake cam rotates within the camshaft. This means that it loses its timing in collaboration with the pump. You must take the intake camshaft out, then pull the pump lobe out. Reposition it correctly and if u like weld it on the camshaft.

Hm, do you have some pictures and how is possible to find reference position ?

IM also very curious about this. My intake cam has like maybe 20 000 kilometers

In the images below u can see the cam lobe and its alignment.

In some 2.0tfsi engines the lobe is integrated with the camshaft.
In that case it is impossible to lose its timing.

Since we were not able to fix issue with fueling with 175b valves and rs3 injectors i was running on 140b with lower boost (around 410 hp) cuz we lacked fuel.
Few tuners spent days trying to figure this out and our guess is that RS3 injectors are not designed to work with pressures above 140b.

Now im trying new injectors which according to seller can take up to 240b and with 170b rail pressure they will be enough for 550-600 hp.
Again we face issue... Rail goes up like crazy and all 4 cylinders missfire the second 140b is achieved. I cant even rev car on idle.
My guess is again the moment we get to 140b injectors close and its reason for crazy rail.

i make almost same setup
rs3 inj bigger cam lobe with roller
175bar prv

never any problem high rpm misfire  or jerking
onyl little over pressure because i use AKS prv and i think faulty not opened

what kind of position fitted the injector ?

but i found one injector test with continental s5 or s4 injector and this injector above 130  bar less flow rate

its here the pcitures
less over 100bar
i dont no real or not
but rs3 injector desinged same

I had repositioned RS3 injectors like they are in RS3. Generally my car runs now better on 4.0 tfsi injectors vs RS3 i mean no more black smoke or gas smell, nice cold start etc. but i cant even rev on neutral cuz all cylinders will missfire and rpms stops.
You can see on the logs that when you try to WOT it will stall around 2,5-2,7 rpm, lambda will go to 1.99 and rail pressure 20b over the commanded pressure. I dont know if its my car or we just cant calibrate injectors...
Im trying to get it running cuz i have big turbo (G30-770) setup ready to fit but if i cant get fuel there is no point in changing turbo. If i manage to make it work then i can change turbo and get it tuner properly and im happy to pay for that