NefMoto

Technical => Tuning => Topic started by: 199X on March 05, 2019, 10:19:49 AM



Title: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: 199X on March 05, 2019, 10:19:49 AM
Greetings,

I've been studying the Simos18 manual to get an idea of whether this is possible.  I know APR has a 980cc injection kit that they have developed

Quote
While the system is essentially plug-and-play with the included mounting hardware and wiring harnesses, the factory ECU is incapable of controlling the new setup without significant modification. APR’s Calibration Experts spent months fully recalibrating the factory engine management system to operate with both MPI and GDI injectors. New sensors were added to the system to provide the ECU with accurate closed-loop control, rather than resorting to risky tricks or external controllers. The end result is simple. More fueling headroom and more power!

I assume because it is coming with a fuel rail and a host of other components that the US/North American version did not come with any form of Port Injection.  The model in question that I am interested in is a Euro model that came with the very tiny 118cc +- port injectors.  I would like to use the same 980cc injectors APR is using as geometrically they fit perfectly.

I've studied the CBMD, FMSP, INJR and LASP modules to get an idea of how:

1. I would manipulate the ECU into using MPI-DI mode for the Homogenous Mode (Manipulation of Inhibits and DI/MPI/DI+MPI modes using the ID_IDX_CMB_MOD_INJ_etc plus other tables)
2. I would scale in 980cc Injectors (So far I've found the dead time / fuel mass / pressure / temp tables)
3. I would apportion the fuel calculation more towards the MPI (LOST HERE!) to take advantage of the greater fuelling capacity

So far I've found absolutely no resources at all, I can only assume that this is because of the commercial viability of this platform, which makes sense.

Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.  I'm losing my mind trying to scan through these modules and make sense of exactly how the fuelling is apportioned between MPI and HPDI
when in the combined DI + MPI combustion modes.  Potentially useful maps I've found in this regard are:

For enabling lambda control for MPI as well as DI

lc_fmsp_mpi_hpdi_mod_ena
lc_mff_hom_sp_split_up_cor_ena
lc_mff_add_lam_ad_out_split_ena

c_fac_mff_mpl_inj_hom_man[ID]

Some pertinent RAM variables:

fac_mff_mpi  - Fuel Mass Flow for MPI
fac_mff_mpl_split_cor[0][X]

If anyone is interested in collaborating to help figure it out, please contact me.  

Regards from the UK,

199X


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 05, 2019, 02:41:17 PM
Hello, I too am currently working on my golf 7r 2017 310hp. I put 400hp RS3 injector without setting my STFT and LTFT are between 0 and 5% so good. While I think I have a lot of correction but not at all I think the Injo of 7r 310hp = Rs3 8v 400CV.   What do you want as a setup?  Moi stage2 decat, admission VWracing, HPFP kit vis stage1, injector rs3 390CV to sp98. I wish to ride at E85 is have 420CV and 550nm in this config


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: 199X on March 05, 2019, 11:27:48 PM
Hello, I too am currently working on my golf 7r 2017 310hp. I put 400hp RS3 injector without setting my STFT and LTFT are between 0 and 5% so good. While I think I have a lot of correction but not at all I think the Injo of 7r 310hp = Rs3 8v 400CV.   What do you want as a setup?  Moi stage2 decat, admission VWracing, HPFP kit vis stage1, injector rs3 390CV to sp98. I wish to ride at E85 is have 420CV and 550nm in this config

Is there much difference in the size of the RS3 injectors over the 7R injectors? I would think they may be very similar, considering the similar cylinder volume.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 06, 2019, 01:01:34 PM
Yes they are similar.  What's your project?


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: d3irb on March 06, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
Yes they are similar.  What's your project?

It sounds like the thread originator is trying to add high flow rate port injectors like the APR, UM, and Eurodyne software available in the US support and they are trying to find out how to scale the MPI/DI split as well as the MPI injector constants to work. These injectors have 4x+ the flow of the R/RS injectors so fuel trims won't work like they did for you.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: hammersword on March 07, 2019, 06:50:15 AM
Greetings,

I've been studying the Simos18 manual to get an idea of whether this is possible.  I know APR has a 980cc injection kit that they have developed

I assume because it is coming with a fuel rail and a host of other components that the US/North American version did not come with any form of Port Injection.  The model in question that I am interested in is a Euro model that came with the very tiny 118cc +- port injectors.  I would like to use the same 980cc injectors APR is using as geometrically they fit perfectly.

I've studied the CBMD, FMSP, INJR and LASP modules to get an idea of how:

1. I would manipulate the ECU into using MPI-DI mode for the Homogenous Mode (Manipulation of Inhibits and DI/MPI/DI+MPI modes using the ID_IDX_CMB_MOD_INJ_etc plus other tables)
2. I would scale in 980cc Injectors (So far I've found the dead time / fuel mass / pressure / temp tables)
3. I would apportion the fuel calculation more towards the MPI (LOST HERE!) to take advantage of the greater fuelling capacity

So far I've found absolutely no resources at all, I can only assume that this is because of the commercial viability of this platform, which makes sense.

Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.  I'm losing my mind trying to scan through these modules and make sense of exactly how the fuelling is apportioned between MPI and HPDI
when in the combined DI + MPI combustion modes.  Potentially useful maps I've found in this regard are:

For enabling lambda control for MPI as well as DI

lc_fmsp_mpi_hpdi_mod_ena
lc_mff_hom_sp_split_up_cor_ena
lc_mff_add_lam_ad_out_split_ena

c_fac_mff_mpl_inj_hom_man[ID]

Some pertinent RAM variables:

fac_mff_mpi  - Fuel Mass Flow for MPI
fac_mff_mpl_split_cor[0][X]

If anyone is interested in collaborating to help figure it out, please contact me.  

Regards from the UK,

199X


Hello,

If you need a 2nd pair of eyes for the developement of this case then here I am to help as it interests me


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: turbojohan on March 07, 2019, 08:41:09 AM
I want to do the same on my car.
MPI completly turns off as soon as you make a bit of power.
It only idles on MPI injectors.
As soon as i have time to work on it i will post results.

Johan


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: vdubnation on March 07, 2019, 09:31:46 PM
If you guys want to create a chat group on whatsapp or facebook I have all the maps to switching split , scaling different size port injectors , how to control during certain torque and enabling on USA cars and much more.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on March 08, 2019, 03:48:31 AM
If you guys want to create a chat group on whatsapp or facebook I have all the maps to switching split , scaling different size port injectors , how to control during certain torque and enabling on USA cars and much more.

That would be an awesome Idea, I've been emailing with Mike about this but I am sure he(we) would be very interested in having your knowledge on this one.



Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 09, 2019, 01:03:31 PM
If you guys want to create a chat group on whatsapp or facebook I have all the maps to switching split , scaling different size port injectors , how to control during certain torque and enabling on USA cars and much more.

Good idea to us all we could do something clean


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: NBR on March 11, 2019, 12:10:10 PM
Would be a great idea. My personal car is Golf Mk7R that came with the tiny factory port injection. I'm going to try and get the port injection working at full load and then from there try and upgrade them to bigger units. If anyone wants me to test some ideas and report back, I'd be happy to do so.

Does anyone know if there's any factory injectors that have the same form as the mk7 but with higher flow? I ask because the APR kit is very pricy in my country


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: 199X on March 11, 2019, 11:04:28 PM
If you guys want to create a chat group on whatsapp or facebook I have all the maps to switching split , scaling different size port injectors , how to control during certain torque and enabling on USA cars and much more.

I would definitely be interested!


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: S2evo1 on March 12, 2019, 12:59:37 AM
If you guys want to create a chat group on whatsapp or facebook I have all the maps to switching split , scaling different size port injectors , how to control during certain torque and enabling on USA cars and much more.

Good idea, Im in to help on this to.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 12, 2019, 01:02:08 PM
Would be a great idea. My personal car is Golf Mk7R that came with the tiny factory port injection. I'm going to try and get the port injection working at full load and then from there try and upgrade them to bigger units. If anyone wants me to test some ideas and report back, I'd be happy to do so.

Does anyone know if there's any factory injectors that have the same form as the mk7 but with higher flow? I ask because the APR kit is very pricy in my country
For injector looks in the USA (nostrum Energy) very high flow
~ 1200cc Special ea888.

Tomorrow I'm testing the injector calibration to drive ethanol. I have to locate map that I will test (including 1 map one would say KRKATE Bosch to follow) if I happen to have STFT and Ltft good


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: prj on March 13, 2019, 04:13:45 AM
What's the point to fit bigger DI injectors for E85 when you can just fit bigger port injectors, which is much much cheaper.
You can buy the needed components and it's all bolt on.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 14, 2019, 02:40:24 PM
The car runs at E85. The single works well for the injector calibration. Tomorrow I ride to confirm and watch the Stft and Ltft. I think I have about 400 and 420CV soon pass on Rotronic


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 16, 2019, 06:30:52 AM
Hello, I have found to calibrate the injos. against the turbo is dead he does not like pressure 2.9bar .... so if you want some help to calibrate injo I am ok. is not to exceed 2.8 bar of impeccable turbo pressure above it has to break.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: IamwhoIam on March 16, 2019, 07:25:43 AM
LOL


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on March 25, 2019, 09:54:36 AM
If anyone is looking to do anything more with the mpi other than what stock does then you really will need to look to increasing the restrictor on the connector from hpfp to lp fuel rail. The lpfp pressure sensor is on the rail and the restrictor will not flow enough really to give the impression that the lpfp is keeping up. So even if you have an upgraded pump which is supplying 5bar to the hpfp the lp sensor may be reading alot less due to its position and restrictor.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 26, 2019, 03:27:39 PM
If anyone is looking to do anything more with the mpi other than what stock does then you really will need to look to increasing the restrictor on the connector from hpfp to lp fuel rail. The lpfp pressure sensor is on the rail and the restrictor will not flow enough really to give the impression that the lpfp is keeping up. So even if you have an upgraded pump which is supplying 5bar to the hpfp the lp sensor may be reading alot less due to its position and restrictor.
Hello, littco sorry my English is bad.
I did not understand you said that a restrictor on the MPI (low pressure injector)? is that this flange the low pressure injector?   

PS my Turbo will change tomorrow so I would continue testing them at E85


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on March 27, 2019, 01:52:40 AM
Hello, littco sorry my English is bad.
I did not understand you said that a restrictor on the MPI (low pressure injector)? is that this flange the low pressure injector?   

PS my Turbo will change tomorrow so I would continue testing them at E85

The brass connector that connects the hpfp to the lp fuel pipe.

LP fuel comes from the pump into the hpfp. This then feeds the hpfp and then feeds into the LP rail via the brass connector which had the small hole in it.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: 199X on March 27, 2019, 03:46:52 AM
If anyone is looking to do anything more with the mpi other than what stock does then you really will need to look to increasing the restrictor on the connector from hpfp to lp fuel rail. The lpfp pressure sensor is on the rail and the restrictor will not flow enough really to give the impression that the lpfp is keeping up. So even if you have an upgraded pump which is supplying 5bar to the hpfp the lp sensor may be reading alot less due to its position and restrictor.

Thanks for your help on this, the stock diameter is absolutely tiny, so as soon as you start using the MPI injectors under boost, you will see the indicated MPI rail pressure dropping off sharply.  I drilled the fitting on the HPFP out to 5 mm and it's now flowing perfectly well.  This only pertains to the EURO spec, if you are retrofitting MPI injectors, you would T off before the HPFP and it wouldn't be an issue.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on March 27, 2019, 02:44:41 PM
Thank you for the advice.  I look in the weekend


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: S2evo1 on March 29, 2019, 04:53:03 AM
Thanks for your help on this, the stock diameter is absolutely tiny, so as soon as you start using the MPI injectors under boost, you will see the indicated MPI rail pressure dropping off sharply.  I drilled the fitting on the HPFP out to 5 mm and it's now flowing perfectly well.  This only pertains to the EURO spec, if you are retrofitting MPI injectors, you would T off before the HPFP and it wouldn't be an issue.

Did you find out how to use MPI in high Nm?


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: k0mpresd on March 29, 2019, 05:04:01 AM
Did you find out how to use MPI in high Nm?

there looks to be maps for minimum Nm and maximum Nm to activate the MPI. 1 of each, min and max.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on April 10, 2019, 01:33:33 PM
Hello, the Turbo was changed with a soft mod the car rolls well at E85. I will redo a mod with 1.7 bar in peak to finish to 1.4 bar hard cut. so I'm going to work on the advance and AFR to earn HP.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: 199X on April 12, 2019, 02:47:37 AM
Hello, the Turbo was changed with a soft mod the car rolls well at E85. I will redo a mod with 1.7 bar in peak to finish to 1.4 bar hard cut. so I'm going to work on the advance and AFR to earn HP.

Do you have any logs you may be willing to post? 


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on April 15, 2019, 01:05:03 PM
Here is a log at the beginning of the setting.  Here is a log at the beginning of the setting. It is better log one thing after another otherwise the log are less precise


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: IamwhoIam on April 16, 2019, 04:36:15 AM
I have no idea how you can even remotely think you're working on a tune with those kind of "logs".
En francais: je n'ai pas la moindre idee comment tu penses pouvoir travailler sur une reprog avec ce genre de "logs" qui n'en portent que le nom.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on April 16, 2019, 02:29:33 PM
yes if you had read what I wrote above that's what I said. The log is not good because it was a log with several groups is less accurate. the best is log group by group. rather than doing the donor of lecon and making fun if your so much helps a little to advance the subject. ps the golf works very well for me towards the 420cv turbo ori, without exchanger, just decat


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: bobbyz0r on April 17, 2019, 02:19:12 AM
yes if you had read what I wrote above that's what I said. The log is not good because it was a log with several groups is less accurate. the best is log group by group. rather than doing the donor of lecon and making fun if your so much helps a little to advance the subject. ps the golf works very well for me towards the 420cv turbo ori, without exchanger, just decat

Use Turbo mode and Group UDS Requests in VCDS. You should be able to get around 5 Hz logging from experience.

Also, if that is a stock IS38, I would not be going past 1.8 bar of boost - thrust bearings are really shit on these turbos.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: mister t on April 18, 2019, 07:46:52 AM
Anyone ever considered just using one of these with the larger high pressure injectors....?

https://torqbyte.com/products/vag-pm4-high-power-fuel-pump-control-module


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: turbojohan on April 22, 2019, 11:04:00 AM
Use Turbo mode and Group UDS Requests in VCDS. You should be able to get around 5 Hz logging from experience.

Also, if that is a stock IS38, I would not be going past 1.8 bar of boost - thrust bearings are really shit on these turbos.

You can log 16hz with 7 values on VCDS.
Blog can do 20hz with with about 20 values.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on April 23, 2019, 11:29:28 AM
You can log 16hz with 7 values on VCDS.
Blog can do 20hz with with about 20 values.

Do you mean bflash? (Blog)


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: prj on April 23, 2019, 02:54:19 PM
If you have a decent VCDS cable (HEX V2, HEX-NET), you can log 12 values with a decent datarate.
If they didn't have the retarded 12 value limit, you could log more.

The problem with bflash as well as vcds is that it's mode22 :(
Can't see anything useful for anything that has more power than stock, hell even making stock tune properly when you don't see a lot of relevant data is annoying.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: sonique on April 23, 2019, 04:20:36 PM
 DiagRA possible make good log 

any other ?


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: bobbyz0r on April 24, 2019, 02:20:47 AM
Mmm, I'm still using an older HEX-CAN (genuine) cable. Was wondering if it was worth it to upgrade for MQB and newer - seems like i may need to.

This is what I'm getting with 7 values:

(https://i.imgur.com/5RYjg80.png?3)


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: prj on April 24, 2019, 02:49:43 AM
DiagRA possible make good log 

any other ?

It's not possible with DiagRA either without a2l or disassembly to find ram values + firmware patches to even enable mode 23.
Good luck with that.


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: turbojohan on April 24, 2019, 01:58:30 PM
Do you mean bflash? (Blog)

Yes i mean Bflash, works fast.
But like PRJ says limited in logable values.

Does anyone know the size of the stock MPI injectors of a CJX engine?

Johan


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on April 25, 2019, 04:13:00 AM
Yes i mean Bflash, works fast.
But like PRJ says limited in logable values.

Does anyone know the size of the stock MPI injectors of a CJX engine?

Johan

120cc (pretty sure )


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: turbojohan on April 25, 2019, 05:08:54 AM
120cc (pretty sure )

Thanks!


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: mister t on April 26, 2019, 01:47:58 PM
Anyone ever considered just using one of these with the larger high pressure injectors....?

https://torqbyte.com/products/vag-pm4-high-power-fuel-pump-control-module

Ahem, cough cough.....


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: turbojohan on May 03, 2019, 06:38:51 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/c61d5175e00b17ef3b8e9afcb41b1c68.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/468b6e0fd4e2d3e8cbc41529243dd5a0.jpg)

Bosch 1000 cc plug ‘n play only need adapter for connector.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: littco on May 03, 2019, 03:42:05 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/c61d5175e00b17ef3b8e9afcb41b1c68.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190503/468b6e0fd4e2d3e8cbc41529243dd5a0.jpg)

Bosch 1000 cc plug ‘n play only need adapter for connector.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

If you're running stock mpi injectors and stock fuelling strategy then I suggest you drill the fitting to a max of 2.5mm that will be enough to stabilise the lpfp readings  any more any you can end up with erratic lp duty . However if you implement the mpi injectors and run the rail from the hpfp brass fitting then 5mm seems to work.

Also these injectors are rated at 3bar and depending on the ECU version the lp is from 5 to 7 bar .


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: kiwijoe79 on July 04, 2019, 05:39:49 AM
Hows everyone getting on with running the larger injectors? just about to head down this road myself, and would love some help


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: IamwhoIam on July 04, 2019, 08:04:19 AM
Hows everyone getting on with running the larger injectors? just about to head down this road myself, and would love some help

Nice first post, and how are YOU helping out the community if I may ask?


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: reycket on July 09, 2019, 03:05:27 PM
question do you have a calculation to convert the load (map in photo) into turbo pressure?


Title: Re: EA888 Gen3 SIMOS 18.1 Enhanced Port Injection Capabilities
Post by: S2evo1 on July 09, 2019, 11:17:22 PM
question do you have a calculation to convert the load (map in photo) into turbo pressure?

That is air/Nm maps and not load.