NefMoto

Because i got good help here, i would like to share my personal experience of adding turbo to my Porsche Cayenne VR6 3.2 in form of QA's. It's not a how-to guide, just some questions that i had and it was hard to find simple answers.

Q: What is VR6?
A: In this context, i talk about 3.2 VR6 engine that has variable intake and exhaust cam. It's used it Cayenne, Touareg, Phaeton, Golf (R32). They all share exact same engine, there are some differences in ECU software (torque limiting). Cayenne has different looking intake, but otherwise it's the same. They all have WIDEBAND front O2 sensors and that is very important.

Q: Can i just slap random turbo kit from ebay to my VR6 and go?
A: Yes and no. That is how i started. See QA down below about O2 sensors.

Q: What to expect with stock engine?
A: I had 400Nm peak and around 290HP on stock ECU with turbo kit installed. Torque limiting made it hard to use that power on streets. (This with 85% ethanol and larger injectors, no modifications to ECU, larger injectors balanced out the consumption needed by ethanol)

Q: What to expect with stock engine and tuned ECU?
A: Depends, i would say 330HP, 410Nm when stock is 250HP, 310Nm. (This with ethanol and larger injectors). With compression lowering kit, some people say, 400HP is safe limit.

Q: What to do before anything?
A: Make sure your engine and sensors are in good working order. Fuel trims should be good and no codes stored. Any sensor failure will damage your engine when on boost.

Q: What is BARE MINIMUM to install turbo and actually be able to drive it?
A: Install random VW turbo kit, install wideband o2 sensors for bank 1 and 2 to exhaust manifold. Connect all sensors like they are supposed to be, including MAF.  You car will now have around 20% more torque and power, but is torque limited and drives badly. Move brake booster hose and PCV hose to somewhere else, they can't stay on intake manifold anymore because there is boost in there now.

Q: So, i can use turbo with stock ECU?
A: Yes. ECU's are torque limited, so it will max out at +20%. It's drivable.

Q: Why my throttle response is jumpy and i get random stalls and power peaks?
A: There are many reasons, but you should disable variable intake system. It has two positions, torque and power. With turbo installed, it only causes issues. Simpy disconnect it mechanically.

Q: How much boost? Is compression reduction kit needed?
A: I'm running 0.65bar with stock compression ratio. However, i'm using 50% ethanol and still have torque limiting on my ECU (on purpose, i made KFMIRL values max out at 150 for safety)

Q: How much boost is safe on stock compression ratio and 'normal' gasoline?
A: I can only tell you, your engine will crack a piston at 0.65bar. That is what happened to me when running with failed sensor and there was no torque limiting. 0.5bar should be safe still? (UPDATE: I had piston failure, but it's very much possible that it was not caused by havin too much boost)

Q: MAF? Do i need to change that?
A: No, maybe if you are looking maximum power on high rpm.

Q: Why you keep talking about ethanol?
A: It's available here for a cheap price but most importanly, it reduces engine compression rate. You can give it more boost without need for compression lowering kit. Or to but it other way, it's more safe to boost it when using ethanol. If you can't use it, i would go for 0.5bar max.

Q: Can i just fit my wideband O2 sensors to exhaust pipe after turbo?
A: No you can't. Your car will not run at all. Exhaust gasses cant be mixed before they go to O2 sensors. You also can't run only single O2 sensor or anything else like that. You simply need to fit them properly so that sensor 1 gets exhaust from engine bank 1 and sensor 2 get exhaust from bank 2. Anything else, and your engine will pop.

Q: Rear O2 sensors? What about them?
A: They need to be electrically connected. You can fit them to exhaust on same pipe. They will give engine code every now and then without catalytic converters. If you leave them disconnected, front O2 sensors wont work AT ALL.

Q: Injectors?
A: There are differences between engines, some have fuel pressure set to 4bar, some cars to 3bars. Do your calculations. Anyway, i got around 30% larger injectors from Audi TT 1.8. They are almost plug&play, connector is bit different, no soldering required or any modifications. (022 906 031 J VW/PORSCHE3.2 -> 0 280 157 012, 06A 906 031 J AUDI TT 1.8 QUATTRO (AMU) -> 0 280 155 892)

Q: Where can i find ECU tune for turbo installation?
A: I don't think you can, most people i asked and offered money just said it's stupid and can't be done and blablaa... this is not on this forum, but when i asked "tune shops" here locally.

Q: Can i tune my ECU?
A: Yes. It's Bosch ME7.1.1 unit. Very common, used everywhere.

Q: What are keywords to ECU tuning?
A: Kess v2, WinOls Demo, ProTuner, ME7Sum.exe, Bosch Me7.3 documentation for Alfa romeo, S4 Wiki, this forum. That is all you need.

Q: What modifications to make for ECU to make car run well enough for daily driving?
A: To keep it simple, all you need to do, is make torque (limiting) curve match your new engine. Because wideband o2 sensors are used, you don't really have to worry about fueling at all. With narrowband O2 sensors i would say that turning NA engine to FI is close to impossible and dangerous.

Q: What exact modification to make for your ECU to get past torque limits?
A: Well, find 100% load caps, edit KFMIRL to suit your car. It takes forever to make it good, but simply multiplying last two rows and smoothing it out a little should make it "ok". After that you start learning and tweaking more, there are tens of maps that you can (and need to) modify.

Q: They talk about MAF scaling, why?
A: Basically you fake that there is less air coming to engine, and that way you can trick ECU to thing that there is less load and torque. It's method to get past torque limits that are programmed to ECU. I would not recommend this because internal load values control other things too (like engine timing). (when swapping different MAF scaling is needed too)

... ok this is getting long. These are just what my experience is. There can be errors, but i hope this helps out someone.

Highlights from below :

Q: I have DSG transmission, does it matter?
A: Yes, DSG transmission have their own torque limiting and basically that means you need to tune transmission ECU too.

Q: Can i use any ME7.1.1 ECU? Like, get a spare and test with that?
A: Yes and no, ME7.1.1 ECUs use different hardware and they generally are not compatible unless it's exact same hardware number.

Q: Do i need to modify ignition timing tables?
A: Personally i didn't touch them and i trusted knock sensors to keep me safe. However, people on this forum keep telling that they absolutely need to be modified. For optimal performance they absolutely need to be modified, but for safety, i'm not sure. You decide if you trust your knock sensors :)


 

Nice writeup, few things I'd add.

You can use checkvalves on PCV and brakebooster so that they only open when engine is vacuum, this way you can keep it connected to manifold.

The variable geometry manifold has to be completely disabled, even if you unplug the connector the module is activated and there are multiple load changing variables that will reflect on your load.

You can tune a fi conversion with nbo2 too but you have to watch knock limit and sensor voltage during boost but highly recommended to fit external gauge, a bosch lsu sensor is cheap and a DIY 14.7 controller or etc too.

You NEED to fit a DV , else you'll stall everytime you let off low load / high rpm and on gear -> neutral switch.

If you move / change the torque limiters and/or you changed your torque control/calculating system, you might it hit a level 2 intervention cap, this comes from the "UM" modules. There are maps for torque allowed / pedal position % etc., might have to rescale this too to avoid the engine control limit 2 dtc during changing weather or conditions where your current torque exceeds the max allowed.

You can disable the rear o2 too.

Yes, when tuning, identical values can be used for both positions (power/torque) if variable geometry manifold is mechanically disabled. It's bit more advanced topic, so i left it out. It's however important thing to know when tuning, so thank you for mentioning it.

A cracked piston is more a sign of some super heavy knocking going on, no engine will last for long under that conditions.
Some R32 here run around 0.6 bar without Ethanol, i dont know the compression ratio for the VR6 but on my Alfa V6 i can run 0.65 with 10:1.
Although most of them are supercharged so the boost comes on way smoother and possibly cooler that with a turbo setup.

Whatever causes it, generally failure mode for VR6 engines seems to be piston cracking between oil and compression ring. There is no damage on top or any burning marks. I personally experienced this.  I was on normal gasoline, redlined, without any torque limiting, and second wideband o2 sensor was not working correctly (slow to respond) and probably on around 0.7bar boost so i really asked for it.. :)

0.65 bar and a cracked piston is knock, nothing else. Probably because of running stock N/A ignition timing while blowing 0.65 bar at it. Duh, that's the most retarded thing one could do. If you had run the appropriate amount of timing, you wouldn't have cracked a piston at 0.65 bar even with 98RON/93 AKI init.

i ran 1 bar stock compression on my 12v with a 60% / 40% e mix. Occasionally hit 1.3 bar with full e with no knock . props to op for documenting their findings

Ok, since you seem to know enough of this to tell what is retarded, maybe you can tell us what kind of ignition maps we should be using when going past >100% cylinder fill and if cam overlapping has anything to do with it? Keep it simple, maybe we could add your answer to QA section.

You need to retard the ignition table too, otherwise it is retarded to run it this way. ;-)
Simple hacks like making the ECU see less load will do this, i used to add a diode on the MAF with a 0.5v forward voltage on my GTV which removed some timing,
but i ran fuel on a megasquirt.

Expand igniton table to cover your new load cap and retard there.
Best way would be live on a dyno, watch your knock and slowly find the spot where it sees slight knock, retard with a safety margin then.

Engines differ quite a bit in how much advance they can handle or not before knocking, also fuel plays in a lot and.
IAT is also a big factor, decent intercooling will help you a lot to run more advance.

Exactly extend KFZW load tables(and the related maps that use the axis) and redo the timing tables with common sense, I'd say aim for 0 cf maybe a max of 3 avg, but even that personally I wouldnt like on such high compression.

Actually i have already extended few axises in such way that second last row goes to 100 and last row jumps to 150. Currently values i'm using at 150 are (basically) identical to 100 row. Primary ignition A and B is one of those maps where modification is done. I haven't had time to check if i have found all places where axises are used, but it should not matter too much. Anyway, for example last row at max load and 5000 rpm is now 12.72 (for example). You mean this should be retared close to zero? That sounds like huge change, only values close to zero are below 3000 rpm. Picture added for reference.

... i quess we are slowly drifting from "how to get bare minimum to work" to "how to tune your turbo vr6", but i quess it's ok. Lets just stay on VR6 and known facts so it's still helpful. I also would like to add, that in this context, by load i mean cylinder fill percentage.

First off you extend the range of your load axises on KFZW, then you significantly drop the values in there starting with 100% load, you might have to do some rescaling and move columns/rows around, then you start with as little timing as possible and you go from there. Ideally on a dyno too, so you can see where MBT is at.

You should extend the whole axis, not just one row,
with your map you end up in the same row betwenn 100 and 150% load so your 0.0 to 0.5 bar boost has the same iginition angle.

Sure about that? My understanding is that it should interpolate between two rows instead of using one or the other?

EDIT: I moved original "last row" one row up. Then i modified axis so that last row is 150 and one before that is 100, like you see in picture. Note that in picture, 100 and 150 row are intentionally same as i haven't modified them. If ECU now looks for row let's say 120, it will fetch rows 100 and 150 and interpolate between values in those. So in theory, whole map could work with just two rows.

You need to learn a bit about the basics first.
The faster the engine runs the more advance it needs, as you can see in the table.
This is because after igniting the mixture it takes some time for the flamefront to travel to the piston.
The faster the engine is turning the earlier the spark must be ignited for the explosion to happen right AFTER turningpoint of the piston on OT.

Knock is if the pistion still travels up when the explosion happens, therefore the rotational energy of the engine and power of the other pistons made before
will push the piston into the explosion.
Thats what breaks your piston.

Yes it interpolates, but look at your last two rows...
Having two values for the interpolation for the whole boost range sucks,
this is where you want to finetune, so more loadpoints mean that you can tune more exactly where it matters.

And yes, in THEORY the whole engine could run of two rows but you will loose a lot of power which can be found in
the non linear characteristic of an engine. There are so many influences which dont make work linear, thats why you have a KFZW.

A distributor based care is actually exactly that, a fixed ignition curve with the aid of a mass which advances the ignition due to centrifugal forces
if the distributor turns faster, so it does not know anything about load (well some do, they later added a vacuum hose).
But such a system is always a compromise.

I think the info. in this thread will be useful for VR6 owners converting from NA to turbo. I would mention that the later R32 and similar engines use the ME 7.1.1 ECUs which can be more difficult to work with especially the ST10 based ECUs. In DSG situations requested torque can also be an issue. The OE compression ratio is 10:8-11:1 depending on what data you believe for the 2004-2009 3.2L VR6 engines. For power of 375 HP and higher most VW/Audi tuners recommend a cyl. head spacer or lower compression pistons. Billet rods are also recommended above ~ 400 HP. The OE pistons are Mahle cast and they should be replaced with forged pistons for high HP application reliability. Mahle Motorsport U.S. and other's offer these forged pistons with a lower compression ratio.

True, it's actually ME 7.1.1 in my car and far as i can remember, it's with ST10 chip. Anyway, like you said, some cars may have ME 7.1.1 but different chip and that makes it harder to flash, bootmode and other stuff might be involved.

DSG cars have torque limiting coming from transmission also, that is what i have been told too. So that is good info to mention here.

Ok, i did some measurements about ignition timing, because of discussion in this thread that stock timing will kill your engine.

With current setup and stock ignition timing, when flooring it (30-110km/h) i don't see any real dips on timing. At full throttle on maximum boost (around 0.65bar) advance is around 14-21 degrees at 5000rpm all the way to redline where it drops to single digits (torque limiting maybe). How is that possible? It kinda matches to primary ignition maps A and B...

So, after that. I made changes that at full load, ignition timing should be around 9-15 degrees at 5000 rpm... did really see any change on data, it's still the same.

Is Torque app logging something like "requested ignition timing" that has nothing to do with actual timing? I don't see any knocking on timing curves.... or feel it or hear it.

Example row from data
Timing Advance Deg : 19.5
Air flow g/s : 268.5
RPM : 5064
... while heavily accelerating.

I can't answer your questions but it is true that timing for the OE NA engine configuration would normally cause engine damage at WOT and possibly major spark knock under part throttle boost. If you are running E85 you might be getting away with it if the ambient temps are cool ???

It's also not unusual to have the total ignition timing "flat line" after 5000 RPM in a production engine because you want the least amount of timing that produces the highest torque. More timing than the minimum required for maximum torque can actually lower power even if the engine does not knock.

depends on fuel as well

underscaling load is a bad idea for a lot of different reasons. knock recognition is one of dozens.

Underscaling load is a crude hack which will work.
Almost as crude as moving the Crankwheel sensor to retard ignition (which will work too).

Depends on what you really want, if its just a car for fun where you dont care about a jerky part throttle,
other hickups, problems starting it when its cold with E50 and more then hack away IMHO.

The first supercharger iteration on my old GTV was a Diode in the MAF sensor line with a forward voltage about 0.5v to underscale so ignition is retarded and fuel was on a megasquirt.
Worked quite well to be honest, from stock 230hp to 345hp on the dyno with no knock. A giant hack.

With ETBs and stuff things get more complicated if you want nice driveability, but you could always change some CW so the throttle plate follows the pedal,
which will create a few other issues like idling etc... But if you are hacking anyway you could retrofit an idle adjustment screw ;-)

I was restraining myself from saying this, but somehow cannot. I appreciate the effort of OP and all to write his experiences down, and it is very nice to see that people are not afraid to experiment.

But attempts like this give others the false belief that it is possible to do (well, that one is true), easy to do, cheap to do, or done properly. Many will follow this half baked solution and at the end of the line the global conclusion is going to be that such conversions are unreliable etc. and several will break their engines. I have seen this happening on another scene ages ago, and when folks finally came with the right solutions, these were doubted under the assumption that they are the same crap as the first bodges. 

At the very least put a huge and red disclaimer at the beginning stating this is incomplete and risky ;)

I personally would like to go from an NA R32 to a turbo R32 but I don't desire to use the hacked ECU approach to do it. I understand that it is possible to do an OK conversion with custom coding, etc. of the OE NA ECU but knowing this is a Band-Aid approach at best, I prefer to go with a PnP aftermarket ECU that allows proper use of a MAP sensor and calibration of all aspects without having to live with a hacked ECU. Hopefully the better aftermarket PnP engine management systems will be cost effective enough for enthusiasts who desire to have their turbo VR6 or similar run as well as an OE turbo vehicle. The aftermarket ECU will still require proper calibration for this to happen including the correct injector data, MAF data, MBT, AFR, etc., etc. This is no small job to do properly.

I believe this thread by the OP was meant to explain his challenges, experiences and difficulties trying to make this complex conversion. It's not like recalibrating an NA or turbo engine, it's a complete re-engineering of the ECU with a lot of forced compromises that are not desirable for a daily driver. If it's a project car and you're OK with less than ideal driving characteristics, then it may be a challenge and learning experience but it's unlikely to ever be a refined, proper driving vehicle as we are use to now days from the auto makers. And yes there is the very real possibility of engine damage even if you do understand the convoluted, complex torque based ECU strategy employed by VW.

It's no problem to tune this properly by those who know how to do it. There's a few sw patches involved, and then after that it's just calibration changes, but it just takes a lot of time.

On this forum you can count these people most likely on the fingers of one hand... oh and no one works for free.

I understand a few can hack the NA ECU to run OK but even with the software patches it's still a hack and not the same as using a proper ECU with all of the appropriate functions, strategy and inputs such as a MAP sensor designed for a forced induction system. It's unfortunate the OE ECU doesn't have the proper strategy and maps to make this an easy, proper conversion for enthusiasts looking to run FI.

You don't know what you're on about, just throwing out buzzwords without having a clue of how things work.

You can absolutely run the R32 with a MAP sensor instead of the MAF on the stock ECU. You can have full lambda control. You can have good throttle control. You can have boost control.
On a daily car it will still drive a LOT better than any standalone ECU, because those just don't have the functions for refinement that the factory ECU has and gives you for free.
If you think this is easy, no it's not. If you're a guy in a garage, forget OE ECU tuning, you don't have the capability to ever get that right anyway, especially on more complicated projects.

But if it's a car that is just needed for motorsport, and the setup changes all the time, then it's a much better idea to fit the tool to do the job. A standalone.

Also, the OE ECU has all the strategies required, if you are the vendor. Set SY_TURBO = 1, set SY_DSS = 1, recompile. BOOM.

Exactly this. These were my biggest challenges when starting this project with absolutely zero experience of turbo cars, never even owned one. Never touched ECU software before, no welding skills, anything really. I didn't want to hear if people think it is wise or dangerous. I simply wanted to learn myself.

After 6 months now, i have Cayenne that actually looks completely stock outside and even engine looks stock for untrained eye. Car has much more power and is still nice everyday driver that "normal" person driving would not even notice there are some modifications. It's still a hack, because car has no idea about boost, it won't ever be perfect without heavy code changes. This was (still is, fixing up those ignition tables right now!) a journey for me and part of that progress was to destroy single piston :)

If someone has VR6 to FI, go for it. How it turns out, might surprise you. I think modern sensor technology makes it easier than ever. Years ago when you had no protection for your mistakes, it could get much more costly.

Hope this makes you smile : https://youtu.be/v9gLChxtMaE?t=482 ... first test drive.. nothing worked right :)

Well actually I do know a thing or two about how things work. The point is that there are better means to convert an NA engine to FI than hacking the NA ECU. I understand that you probably do this for a living and generate revenue from same and that's fine and dandy but the average enthusiasts isn't likely to be able to do the re-engineering of the NA ECU to make a FI engine run 100% properly. In fact many so called tuners who do this for a living are unable to make the VR6 run properly like the OE engine after it's converted to FI. If you're able to do everything properly, that's great. In the 20+ years that I have owned VR6 powered vehicles I have never heard of or seen any VR6 turbo engine using a MAP sensor which is the preferred method for monitoring cylinder density. Enabling SY_Turbo and SY_DSS isn't the challenge. ;)

There are in fact aftermarket engine management systems that can duplicate the performance of the OE Bosch or similar ECUs without going to the extremes that some auto makers do. You can even buy Bosch aftermarket systems for an absurd price that offer most everything the OE ECU offers. OE systems 20 years ago were not torque based and they ran just fine same as current torque based systems. Some aftermarket systems employ a combination of MAF, MAP and torque based strategies to obtain the best performance for both street or motorsports situations. Some of the aftermarket systems also incorporate options for wet or dry NOS operation, water-injection, dual fuel injectors and other controls not available on the OE Bosch ECU. The aftermarket has made great gains in engine management over the past decade and the better systems are no longer the crude ECUs of the past. You pay for this advancement but it's an option that is finally available for those looking to do their own proper tuning. It's still a lot of work to do it all properly however and this point should not be underestimated.

I think between this thread and the one below VR6 owners and others looking to convert an NA engine to FI will be able to see the challenges, pitfalls, limitations and options that exist should they decide to pursue a project of this magnitude. None of the options are for the faint of heart other than buying a tune and hoping it works.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=17016.0title=

Hey it runs so you're making progress! If you intend to up the boost however it is likely to become more complicated.  ;)

1. I've been doing this for years.
2. a MAP sensor is not the "preferred method for monitoring cylinder density". It is an indirect method. The HFM is a direct method. There are arguments for and against each. OEM diesel cars even in this day and age all have a MAF sensor because the speed density model is not precise enough to hit emission targets. Don't just throw out opinions as fact, thank you.

I think this thread is a waste of space on this forum. This forum is about tuning the OE ECU.
This thread is about irrelevant BS that has nothing to do with the tuning aspect. It's just a bunch of people discussing buzzwords and failures. Best this thread is a good example for is - HOW NOT TO MAKE A R32 CONVERSION.
I don't understand why this thread is even in tuning when the OP basically has not even touched the ECU, there isn't a single log provided.

As for your BS regarding NOS and what not - if it's a drag race car, use a standalone, what's there to think? The stock ECU is there to run a street car.
All the things you listed are illegal on a street car in most countries.

As I said - if you don't know how to do this, give it to someone more capable.
Instead you're so high up on your horse you think that if you can't do it - no one can. "Oh, but it's hacked, oh I bet it's gonna run like shit and not right bla bla bla" - This is not the case. It is YOU who is the problem, not the rest of us.
Those of us who have the brains to do this have had running, fully working R32 turbo conversions for years, that drive like a factory car. And we will continue to have them. No you can't have this for free.

So enough bashing the stock engine management when it's YOU who can not modify and tune it. If YOU don't want to do it, then get off this forum, you're in the wrong place.

Most of the things we do here are technically illegal in most countries (if not doing complex and expensive legalising procedures).


This is precisely what I was on about couple of posts back - this is the general result of such threads.

Since some (clearly very skilled) people here seem to have strong opinions about what and how should be written here, how things should be done and what people should discuss about, i'm going to back off and leave posting to this forum for other people.

its fine, its your experience, maybe it is how it should be done, maybe it isnt but all you get is more knowledge of how it should be done which isnt a bad thing IMO.

Relax, it's a tough game over here, I got bashed couple of times myself. I treated this as an encouragement, just there is a specific way of giving feedback by certain individuals, cultural thing I assure you ;). With a car / engine like yours you should be really looking for a better worked out solution ;) (My first turbo project took me around 4 years to the point where I wanted it to be and I could declare it a proper solution, and you had no idea what kind of crap I got as feedback when I started (not here though)). 

We can agree to disagree because just like when I explained to you that retarded ignition timing can cause burndown of the exhaust system as confirmed by hundreds of entities including the auto makers, you insist on arguing you POV which is contrary to that of the majority of the world. While you are entitled to view this or any other thread or the Bosch OE ECUs any way you desire, it doesn't make your POV factual, it just makes it your POV. If everyone agreed with your POV then car makers like VW would not have switched from mass air flow systems on the 2.0T to a speed-density system with a MAP sensor in 2018 for U.S. based models where the U.S. has the most stringent ex. emissions requirements.

My comments in this thread are intended to show that there are finally various options available to VR6 and other NA engine owners looking to move to a forced induction system. If they feel adventurous and desire to hack the OE NA ECU they can see the challenges, limitations and pitfalls that exist. If they chose to go with a top line aftermarket engine management system they can have a properly calibrated engine without any hack settings/compromises plus additional features should they desire them. Apparently you are unaware that street driven vehicles use non-brake activated traction control, NOS injection, water injection, dual fuel injectors, etc. all available with top line aftermarket engine management systems but not available on the OE Bosch NA ECU. In addition the top tier aftermarket engine management systems allow people to create custom maps to run all sorts of controls the OE Bosch NA ECU can not. (See the link below for video highlights of custom Syvecs maps).

https://www.syvecs.com/help-videos/

I applaud the OP for posting his experiences - which is what the thread title states. If gives people with NA engines insight into the issues they will face and the possible engine damage they can cause with trying to hack the OE NA ECU.

For the record there is no high horse here. I prefer to do things properly not hack systems just because it's possible. Obviously you are offended that I don't subscribe to your hacking of the OE NA ECU because it impacts your income. Every time you have to patch/hack/scale the OE NA ECU because it doesn't have the correct maps or a MAP sensor as used by the majority of automakers for FI applications, you are applying a Band-Aid that creates other compromises. Pretending that the Bosch OE NA ECU offers the proper foundation to properly calibrate a FI engine is just denial. To berate the top of the line aftermarket engine management systems that surpass the Bosch OE NA ECU's limitations is ignorant and disrespectful of those who have invested years in developing an equal or superior engine management system to the Bosch OE NA ECU that isn't optimal for FI applications even when hacked. If you were to start with a completely blank Bosch ECU which can be used for speed-density, MAF or torque based strategies then you could program it properly like any other Bosch ECU but hacking it to try and make it into a half-assed compromise is a poor choice IMO. You are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy regarding hacking. Most people here are trying to recalibrate not re-engineer the ECU via hacks to make an NA ECU function properly in a FI conversion. If hacking the OE NA ECU was the best solution it would not be called hacking, it would be called re-engineering which is what must be done to properly calibrate the OE NA ECU for FI. No car maker would hack an NA ECU as you chose to do for FI.

The bottom line is that you are entitled to disagree with anything I post. Your opinion is not necessarily fact. Attacking me does not validate your beliefs nor change reality. Your personal attacks are improper, futile and counter to forum sharing of info. If you are unable to stick to the subject matter and express yourself as an adult without the insults maybe you should not post in these types of threads.

Unless you own this forum prj - and your name is Tony, I don't believe you have the authority to abuse other members, insult their intelligence or dictate what is posted here when it's intended to offer assistance to those with VR6 / NA engines looking for options on FI conversion engine management info.

If I'm incorrect on this matter please let me know Nyet.

prj - Let's move on because you're not getting anywhere with your insults, meritless claims and B.S. You are however driving helpful people out of the forum with your offensive and inappropriate demeanor...

Don't leave because some folks are abusive and lack social skills. Your thread is actually useful for VR6 owners who want to venture into FI. They can learn some of the challenges and the options available to them. I personally would prefer not to go to FI if I can't calibrate the engine properly as I've done for many years, without hacking. That's my choice but you as well as other folks may well enjoy hacking/learning and be happy with the end result. Achieving the result on our own terms is what makes us all car enthusiasts! Go for what makes you happy but don't go blindly!  ;)

I dont see much difference is functionality included To original compile or is it coded compiled and added afterwords. If it work it works. If you live matrix world like prj, the outcome is as clearminded as bosch guys. That I dont understand what such guru guys hang here.

@GolfSportWagen
I think you should do some research into this before you try to bash prj. Do some extra research into why "It is an indirect method."

They switched to speed density, because the ECU's got complex enough where it was possible to hit emission targets using pressure sensors. Pressure sensors are much cheaper than a HFM and much more reliable. The reason is simply cost.
On a diesel emissions targets still can not be hit using speed density in this day and age, hence using HFM. HFM is more precise, because it actually measures what is going on, not calculates it indirectly.

This forum is about tuning the stock ECU. There have been standalones that can run these cars decently for 10 years. Seems like you've been living under a rock.
But anyone will still have to go somewhere to get it tuned. You need a dyno, and you need very good knowledge about how to set up an engine with VVT on both cams, not to mention calibrating knock control from scratch - that's always fun.
Oh and no, it won't run any better on a street car, than a properly modified standard ECU - and it will also cost 10 times as much.

Do you know why I know this? Because I tune standalones on my dyno. Hell, I am a dealer and we sell them every day.


You know what dude? FUCK YOU.
Do you know why? Because you haven't even seen my work, and you're saying it's a "half assed bandaid".
That's the only answer you deserve.
Last I checked ME7 is used on 1.8T and 2.7T. I guess you better call Bosch and tell them that their hacked ECU sucks. It wasn't designed for FI.
Maybe call Bentley too, and tell them their turbocharged Continental W12, that uses dual VR6 Bosch ECU's is also a bullshit hack.

Bonus LULZ for "income". If my income was 20 year old shit, I'd be bankrupt.

P.S.
I am very glad if you got offended. Talk shit, get shit.
You have contributed absolutely nothing to this forum of value, besides talking trash and pushing random products.

Now where's my popcorn stash?

Goes on and on and on and on about OEM this OEM that, hacking OEM and yet thinks Syvecs is a top tier manufacturer? WTF are you smoking dude? Take me to your dealer please, I need some of that shit like yesterday!

reality check: when everyone calls you a fool, you might actually be one.

Right right, those beautifully German engineered ECUs in which I had to fix factory bugs to actually make them work according to the original intentions of the developers, that have stupid artificial software limits making life extremely difficult to tune them beyond certain limits, etc. etc. I assure you that prj along with a group of other people from around here develop hacks that are of way better quality than the factory stuff. [And do not get me started on one of Marreli's proper "designs" from early 90-s that to this day I have no idea how it passed any quality control and made it to the market.]

No sir, these are not hacks we are talking about here, the same way as properly TIG welded stainless steel exhaust manifold done in the privacy of one's garage is not a hack compared to the stock cast iron shit only because the latter one was done by "an engineer" ;) It's simply a "custom job".

Amen to that, the 5120 "hack" is one of the first things that come to mind here!

IMO you are all arguing over stuff that isn't worth debating at all.

No solution is perfect, there are advantages and drawbacks to every approach, from cost, to skill required, to time required.

There are approaches I think we can all agree objectively suck (older generation standalone, alpha-n hacks, MAF or load underscaling). But arguing over what the objectively best approach is (once the obvious hacks and noobs are appropriately discounted) is only inviting a pointless protracted subjective argument.

We can also agree that "professionals" employed by large corporations are definitely not deterministically "better" at anything. They make mistakes, they are lazy, they might show criminal level incompetence etc. We see evidence of that time and again (Boeing, lol). But arguing over "who is best" is also inviting a pointless protracted subjective argument.

Finally, note that I am not even going to address the personal attacks, since they are even less productive.

Nyet - Most of us understand the reality of the situation here but some folks have personality flaws that cause them to display hate and aggression when their pontification on the Bosch ECU's superiority is proved meritless. Uncivil behavior does not validate false claims.

Up until the fanbois showed up to support the self-appointed King of the forum, there was only one person in this thread attacking the OP and other forum members because they didn't bow to his ideology on hacking a Bosch NA ECU for FI applications. Instead of supporting and acknowledging the efforts of the OP to build a turbo system for his VR6 project vehicle and get it up and running when the OP admitted that he didn't even know how to weld before he started his project, one person has completely derailed the thread, insulted everyone in it and spewed venom because they believe they are all knowing and in control of the forum when I'm pretty sure Tony and Nyet are managing the forum.

The personal attacks, insults, off-topic hate and ignorance spewed should end. It's totally inappropriate and it changes nothing. If you can't post something positive and constructive why are you posting in this thread at all? The title of this thread is the OP's experience and Q&A. He is trying to help other VR6 owners who might want to pursue FI on a VR6 or other NA engine. Why should he be subjected to the misguided, narcissistic rants of the King of the forum which have added nothing but hate to the OP's thread and caused him and other folks to desire to leave the forum when they have done nothing wrong what so ever?

Being uncivil doesn't make your beliefs true. If you're not mature enough to post constructive, positive comments in a thread don't post at all. If you don't understand that your anti-social behavior is a personality defect you might want to consult a professional about your affliction. Wearing your offensive demeanor as a badge of honor is proof of a serious personality deficiency.

What a shame that so many threads in this forum end this way due to one uncivil individual's inability to deal with differing POVs, reality and his personal shortcomings. His anti-social behavior should have been terminate a long time ago. This disrespectful individual would have been banned from pretty much every forum on the planet for his inability to post non-personal comments that remain on-topic and unoffensive.  :(

Going from any argumentation to pure ad hominem. This is how it's done bois.

Good thing you don't decide shit on here. Mr 63 useless off-topic posts as of this writing.

its unfortunate, but its what it is. if you read threw his posts youd see when he does contribute its gold. people are who they are  :-\

No argument on his contributions. Making his posts personal is unacceptable to most which is why they leave. There is no reason to act anti-social or derail other people's threads. The OP didn't ask for his critique on the VR6 turbo project or prj's opinion on what was acceptable to post in the Tuning section. If prj can't refrain from uncivil behavior he shouldn't post at all. Being abusive doesn't enhance his post it detracts from it. It highlights his inability to be a mature adult instead of acting like an irate two year old child.

His hostile inappropriate comments should have been terminated here years ago. Wearing his abusive demeanor as a badge of honor doesn't make his POV right nor does it make him any better or any smarter than anyone else it just confirms that he has a low self-esteem issue he can't deal with. Denial of reality doesn't make him a better person. He can change for the better if he chooses to do so but he has to acknowledge that he has serious personality defects that only he can change. A professional therapist can assist him but he must desire to change.

Now would be a good time for him to start the next decade off on a positive note. He should write himself a note and tape it to his monitor. The note should read as follows:

"Unless I can make a positive, constructive post without making my post personal, insulting people's intelligence, or being anti-social - then I won't post at all as it's unfair to all forum members for me to be abusive and disrespectful".

Before ever posting prj should read the note slowly and calmly. If everyone followed this most basic principle of forum decorum we would have much better - on topic discussions.

Is anyone running an hpx maf on an r32t, I definitely preferred that on my 12v me7 vrt Compared to the draw thru bosch maf. I'm currently done using me7 for turbo vr6 stuff as I moved to ecumasters with pnp adapter. At the end of the day it suited my needs for my project and was more user friendly to my knowledge level.

Yo dude, nobody cares what you have to say.

If you want to DIY, good idea. Ecumaster has very reasonable price, and they lately implemented a decent enough CAN stream that the DSG works with it as well. You will still need to patch the DSG to go over 500nm clutch torque, but it works well enough.
HPX Maf - I don't really recommend, there is some drift at low load with it, you might get idle issues and fuel trim issues at low load.

See there you go again prj with the hate and insults. Haven't you figured out by now that your abuse doesn't change anything. Why not start now to become a better person by losing the attitude and getting a grip on reality. You might even like the new you. Acting like an adult and showing respect isn't any more difficult that being obnoxious and socially challenged. You have a great opportunity to become a nice person if you take it.

Send this thread to your favorite licensed psychologist and ask them for a personality profile assessment of the people posting in the thread. You don't have to even tell them your screen name. You might be quite surprised to learn their professional opinion of your posts in this and other threads.

Cheers

Don't forget to tape this note to your PC monitor.

"Unless I can make a positive, constructive post without making my post personal, insulting people's intelligence, or being anti-social - then I won't post at all as it's unfair to all forum members for me to be abusive and disrespectful".

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/70/70018734a1cd5f298c5b7eedbfd6f5e5fd3443759662c30812f08029364a11eb.jpg)

R32 turbo wiith dsg and with ignitron ecu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXwUHBizKpo

My daily driving tune, it's better than stock, can't say much more of it. Stock and modified bin included so you can compare, and TunerPro definition. Don't use it blindy, use it as source of information, example. It's for 50% ethanol. It's from Porsche Cayenne. Ignore bin name. Max boost is around 0.6-0.7 bar.

Quick overview :
- Single axis added to make it possible to tune ignition and torque maps past 100. Not that i actually have "tuned" it in any way really.
- Ignition maps retarded somewhat on boost, single axis to modify that
- Variable intake manifold (SU) ignored by using identical maps
- Stock LAMFA values, they are quite rich from the factory.
- No MAF scaling, but map is there for you
- KRKTE set for 269g/393cc injectors and 50% ethanol (LTFT around +4-6, so maybe 40% ethanol would be spot on)
- KFMIOP basically untouched
- KFMIRL last two rows multiplied to "max out" for my hardware
(just don't touch anything else but last two rows on KFMIRL unless you know how to properly calculate both KFMIOP and KFMRIL)
- Load limit set to 200
- Make sure KFZWOP and KFZWOP2 are what they are supposed to be, i don't have 99% confirmation they are mapped correctly.
- Other maps defined but not modified. Everything starting with 'xx' are not correctly mapped so you should ignore them.
- FYI Stock tune goes to 105%

Basically car feels like non-turbo car unless you floor it, just a bit more peppy on low rpms. I'm fine with it. I tried to tweak more power for part throttle, but KFMIOP and KFMIRL really need to be worked hard to make that work well and currently i have no proper logging and personal time to invest on this.

Extra useless information : I have SAI, but hoses are disconnected. It's super LOUD without hoses when spinning, so i just pulled the fuse for SAI pump. No OBD codes or anything. So, with atleast this bin, it doesn't trigger any errors and as such is easiest way to disable SAI.

Now, keep on fighting! I really have had enjoyment of reading how this (and some other) threads progress. You people...

Edit : Replaced TunerPro definition with cleaner one, so it's less confusing. Removed some assumptions from this text.

like that  ::)

Just the stuff why you don't just blindy use any files you find from internet :)

Results are in, 355Hp@6059rpm and 468Nm @4648rpm

This is with E85, rev limit is at 7200 but we didn't go this far with this pull so i think there are 10-20HP's in reserve still. This is first the dyno test after i remapped my ECU. There are three 'dips' visible that are easy to clear out, last two are related to intake cam timing i think, first is torque intervention that you don't even detect when driving normally, i don't think it even triggers every time.

Car is perfectly drivable, no jerking or surging when daily driving. Pulls really hard from 4000->rev limit. Lambda stays where it's set at (~0.82) even when MAF cut's out at 292g/s. Full pull from 0->150km/h no problem etc. ... good stuff. I'm happy with it.

Did you ever find out why the timing didnt change? I seem to have the same problem trying to lower the timing a little on my r32.
I changed all 8 kfzw & kfzw2 maps but the timing is till the same. 

Because zwbas/zwgru =/= zwout. The timing values dont equal whatever is in KFZW most of the time unless you are running without torque interventions in dev mode.

I understand that, but if I remove 6 degrees from kfzw maps( there are 16 on my 7.1.1), shouldn't some timing decrease show up?  There seems to be something stopping the timing from decreasing. There is no kfzwn map on these me7.1s ,so what limits the lowest timing?

Check the FR.
Either you arent changing the right set of maps - only one set is used per variant coding- or there is something else is limiting it, there are many reasons why output wouldnt follow kfzw base values (specially on n/a soft) or even go lower than whatever you have in the tables ( could be all bullshit for all we know).

Also there is absolutely a kfzwmn + map in that ecu.

Thanks Blazius,
I'm going to have a go at copying one map to all KFZW 16 maps , zeroing out DZWOLA and KFDZWKG to avoid lambda corrections.
As far as the kfzwmn map is concerned, I really cant find any winols files that have it. I looked at complete winols files for  022906032GP, KR,CE and there is nothing there, mine is a KG, I don't have the winols file for that but the three above get me quite far.
 An earlier model (2004) 022906032DR has the map it. I did a byte search and couldn't locate it in mine. I also looked at the word minimum in german but did not get the needed map. The values in the map from the 32DR are too low to have had an impact even if they existed in mine, so I will focus on the assumption that I missed the KFZW map I needed to edit

Really stupid idea to copy the same map.
The maps are for different camshaft phasing and intake flap combinations. The engine needs different timing as a result.

If you want to just offset global timing this can be done through global offset maps, there's more than 1...

Don't do that. Like mentioned they are for NWS and changeover timing variation, unless you have disabled them. Also indeed ZWMN is pretty low by default anyway it's unlikely thats what it is limiting you.

Again tho you havent said anything about your setup, what you are trying to achieve, why the need for retard , did you turbocharge the car etc.

Its fine guys, I just did it to make sure the timing changed, and I would have traced the proper map later, but alas it didn't change again!!

 
All I want to do for now is to retard the timing around 1500-2500 at loads of %~80 and higher. I noticed that the motor knocks around 90% load  and retards from 2 to 6 degrees sometimes one or two cylinders other times most of them.  I want to alter the map so it just below the knock threshold.  I know I could just leave it, but I like the car and want to do this as a hobby. I know the cam maps and  the lamfa map do affect the motor when I alter them, so I assumed the timing maps would also work, but it was not to be.
I'm pretty sure the 16 maps were correct but who knows.

I get the feeling the chap who did this turbo conversion ran into the same problem but the car ran fine with boost and the same N/A timing??

So today, as you can see in the pictures, I made the area of interest quite retarded and copied the map to all of the ones in the pic. I double checked the bin file and all changes were saved.
VCDS log showed 95% actual load, and 14 degrees of advance around that area and there was some knock retard.  Is it possible that the 16  kfzw maps are just a legacy  and are no longer used by this ME7.1.1 ?  Has anyone seen kfzwop being directly used to calculate timing, instead of just being used for efficiency calculations? Any ideas appreciated!!

Instead of posting screenshots, start posting proper logs or just stop posting altogether.

I don't think logs are going to help you much as you seem to know fa about this ecu

KFZWA/2, KFDZK, KFSWKFZK - Need to change kfzw/2 a fair bit more too by the looks of it, shouldn't really need more than that

Oh, there's also always KRMXN and some KRRA tweaks too

Just keep bashing your head against the wall, that'll help.

As for knowing - it's you who is too dumb to change timing on a ME7.

I have a fair few turbo conversions and other things under my belt. Funny how I never had issues with timing.

Stop guessing and start logging with me7logger, log all the timing related values and you'll see whatsup.

Nevermind.