NefMoto

hi, has anyone ever done this? car is a 2011 4.2 S5. most stuff i found here was about vr6.

im used to standalone but for cars with basically no electronics.

in this case I need the OEM ecu because of the direct injectors, which i find is not a bad thing, as it is a street car.

Garbage motor, generally not worth modding.

:(

why?

That all depends on how deep your pockets are. If your willing to spend $800+ usd then sure. If not then crickets.

assume im willing to spend it. whats the approach?

2.7t swap :P

rephrasing: i would like to have a CAUA v8 4.2 audi engine tuned for 2 turbos in my 2011 S5. what best approach would you recommend? :D

Sell the car, buy one with 3.0T, you will get 450+ hp very easily.
If you like a V8, sell the car, buy an S6 or S7.

There is zero reason to do anything with this engine.

because…?

Because it's financially absurd. Instead of being 15k into this, you could have sold it and be driving an S7, and with a little help easily made 800hp.
I doubt the DI system has any significant room to support FI in the first place.

Or if you like the body a lot, swap a 4.0TT into it. It has been done before, granted the electronics were a nightmare, but they got it running.

i'd like to go on with the 4.2 CAUA and the S5, can someone give me a hand instead of other car suggestions? please don't read this in a rude tone, i'm just really willing to go forward with it.

i know prj and nyet from all the stuff i read in this forum the past 2 weeks and i appreciate having you both answer this thread. i'm certain something positive will come from this :)

i have 2 possible approaches:

-oem ecu + standalone controlling timing, throttle body and secondary injectors: however, i have absolutely no idea how the car will behave - i.e. limp mode? - when boost comes into play.
-oem ecu only

objectively: is it about KFMIRL and KFMIOP? there is no LDRXN, KFLDHBN, KFDLULS or DSLOFS. can I work clamping the MAF or is it just stupid? should I add a MAP?

would like some directions, because most material ive read here is regarding me7 - which i know shares some basis, so I went ahead and began a mappack from the ori, using a similar a2l (just finding the offsets basicaly). but where will the boost info go? can i surpass 100% load in its med9.1.1 or is it hardcoded?

the idea is to keep it as functional as possible regarding the oem stuff (acc, etc). a street car.

No its not only about IRL and IOP and load and stuff, because if it is anything like ME7(it mostly is) first of all probably load will be hardcapped at 100% no matter what you put in IRL, so dissasembly will be required to find the hardcap.
Second your only real way to go forward is adding boost control like c167 boost pid if you ever want something thats driveable.

so in simpler words, its not about going into winols and editing stuff. stuff have to actually be added to the bin so that it can be, then, "mapeable"?

Yes, and a full flash on dual ECU car takes ~30 minutes unless you have custom flash tools with custom protocols on top a firmware patch. Or you need INCA and ETK ecu's.
Actually I wouldn't even attempt this if I didn't have the latter.

If you have to ask about these things you will never ever succeed. Just take my word for it.
Sell the car, buy 4.0TT.
Or if you're super masochist, swap a 4.0TT into your chassis (which is also an insane amount of work, and not worth it, but you could at least possibly complete it).

the S5 has one ecu and one TB. the rs5 is the one you're thinking of i assume.

i am a masoquist. :D

if you gentlemen dont mind me asking, how is it that companies sell tunes for supercharging this engine? these would come with the "added stuff" that you mentioned?

They're usually just underscaled crap. Nor is there any point fitting a supercharger on this POS. It won't make any reasonable power anyway.

i imagined that was the case (for the sold maps).

I mean, go buy the AMD kit if you really want to, the software is decent at least.
It's $12k for just the kit without install, add 3-4k for install.
For extra 150-200hp.

Pointless? Absolutely.

For $16k you can get a car that will be way faster and that includes the purchase price lol.

one of the things about my masoquism is that i'd like to do stuff myself, thats the fun for me... help is welcome, but id like to not go with a plug n play solution in a box.

suppose i go with the standalone to control timing, throttle and secondary injectors. and clamp the MAF. would the car go into any protection mode because of the power? i imagine it would, but not enough experience to conclude anything.

Of course it will. It will cut the injection immediately once it sees that throttle is not responding.

You're not going to complete it.
Even if you bodge the hardware somehow together, you will never get the software done. Takes too long for a one-off and nearly impossible if you have no prior experience.

So part of it will have to go elsewhere.
No tuner who is any good at anything will take your custom build project that they didn't build themselves for mapping.
It's just not worth the time.

do you have an opinion on the JHM kit?

No.
But I can see they are using a centrifugal charger, so it's probably quite bad.

AMD and APR are using TVS Roots blowers, the response is probably on another level and a lot more torque in the midrange.
I have some inside info on the AMD kit, and I know it's solid. No experience with any others.

EDIT:
AMD is TVS1900, the APR one is TVS1740, so most likely not as much power. I am not sure if either of them are even available.

7k+ for 100whp lol, that is so not worth it in my opinion.

I dont know mate but if this was my car then sure as shit I would sell it immidietly IF you couldnt build it yourself and tune it yourself which you cant as it seems.

I mean goddamn 12K for the AMD kit, that alone gets you a S4 3.0T easily which you can literally learn to tune (or pay someone a few hundred) and with simple pulley change youd be around the same level as your current car with 7-12k kit, think about it.

Or lol the S5 even came with 3.0T so what? You have no excuse, apart from liking V8 in that body I guess...

you guys would go crazy if you knew how much ive put into a 86 vw back home...

(https://i.imgur.com/VKgSb2o.jpg)

This is nothing like a 86 VW.

well aware. but i did make 400whp in a 1600cc aircooled with drive by wire, sequential ignition and injection. what im trying to say is i care more about learning new stuff then if its worth financially. and for now, my toy is the s5.

Well since we have gotten to this stage, there is nothing more to add unless you choose which path to go down on.
I myself have turbocharged a non FI car and ran it without blowing it up before switching solutions, some others too...

You have explained yourself in the OP why you cant use your familiar tuning methods in this case.
The rest of us explained and maybe will do so what you need to do to accomplish your 'goal' on this car if you go down that path.

1. Buy a kit for this engine and car , have end result, however that may look.
2. Sell it, get another version which will accomplish the same goal you are looking for, something that will also hit "learning new stuff" goalpost.
3. Learn MED9 dissassembly , some coding , processor etc if you are in the field and you want a driveable end result , if not you can rule this option out basically.
4. Find someone to do this project for you and pay em, if such person exists.

Pick one

i appreciate all the responses :)

will work a bit on #3 and see where it takes me.

thanks

#3 is going to take at least 2-3 years without prior reverse experience.

i appreciate the estimation. :)

You can spend few thousands for syvecs standalone. R8 pnp kit is about 11000. Anyway it's not the same engine and use master/slave ecu. Dont know if these ecu are worth the money and the project at all does not make sense.

Will not help him. R8 has completely different CAN Matrix and it's M&S with different layout.

hey, what if i keep the oem ecu controlling throttle and injectors. and standalone controlling ignition and secondary injectors. and clamp the maf. oem ecu wouldnt know of boost. can it detect the excess power in any way?

Will go immediately into limp mode due to function monitoring if it is not controlling ignition, because torque reduction will not work.
It also most likely won't run properly because there will be no fast path torque response possible at all.

I mean you can keep generating crazy ideas, it's not going to get you anywhere.
Only way is either to go full standalone that implements the whole can matrix and torque request reaction (probably 20k+ to get someone to develop that, but it's possible on motec).
Or fully on stock ECU, which you won't be capable of in the near future.

Disagree with those calling it a garbage motor.  Same general design as the V6 and V10. Bedplates are stout.  Throw some forged rods and pistons in it and it shouldn't have a problem with 1000hp.  There's a machine shop in WV that even has some custom Darton sleeves for it if you want to go bigger.

If you are capable of fabing up your own turbo kits, it would cost less than a 4.0t.

AMTuned pumps out a lot of big turbo 4.2 B7s, wouldn't be shocked if he's done some S5s as well.

Not sure what you are smoking but the whole 4.0TT engine will cost less than just turbos + manifolds.
Not even thinking about the nightmare of fuel system + tuning atm.

I think prices are significantly different in  Europe vs the States (don't know where OP is)

I remember the guy from Belarus who did the first 4.0t swap only did it because he blew his original 3.0t and getting a 4.0t was cheaper than a replacement 3.0t.

In the States, the 4.0t will cost 10-15k.


034 quit developing their 4.0t swap kit due to the absurd price of the engine.

And you think doing the plumbing on a NA engine + the turbos is cheaper?
I'd charge 5k-6k for tuning that if I was still doing it as well.

And the end result will be shit compared to a 4.0TT.

If you are doing the labor / fabrication yourself, yeah.  The obvious wildcard is the capability to tune it.

It also looks like the exhaust manifolds could be repurposed as is, or with just a little modification  Log manifolds work great as turbo manifolds.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

Here ya go OP, save some money with a big single.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/ACNAFS/permalink/2376230055863992/?sale_post_id=2376230055863992&app=fbl

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hey, thanks for sending this. I had seen it on FB as well haha. but what I'm lacking is the ecu solution, I can do the piping myself. :)

hey, i found a post from you mentioning you own tuner.ee, are you still in this business?

No, it's a placeholder to funnel stuff to another company.
It still ranks on Google.

That doesn't exist for over 6 years. I don't tune anything dude.

hi :)

i couldnt find any indication of hardcap in the FR, however, the one I have is for MED9.1 (not 9.1.1)... any help here? :D

It's garbage not in the sense that it's a bad motor. It's garbage in the sense the Audi almost specifically shifted to the NA V8 to stop aftermarket tuners from getting a lot of HP cheaply out it like they were the FI platforms. Some speculate it is because their warranty claim costs were going through the roof, in particular, from 2.7t modifications. The B6 S4 was a deliberate slap in the face to everyone doing mods, including the growing DIY community.

Then again, Hanlon's Razor suggests that wasn't intentional.

In any case, it doesn't matter. If you are interested in getting HP gains with aftermarket tuning, ditch the V8. It is garbage for those reasons.

The FR is mostly specific to the projekt its published for so for some certain things and module revisions it wont be the same in the software. Also yes differences between the platform itself do matter.

The output still runs through a min/max limiter/switch probably anyway. If you want follow the output of KFMIRL and you will see whats up. It's a bit more complicated than ME7 due to DI but principles should remain the same. You will require disassembly there is no choice around that, FR or not.

If you actually decide to do anything, then my logger will help you see what is going on where - you will be able to log all the axis of the maps, all variables and follow the FR flowcharts.
Not free, but probably going to be the cheapest thing in your build.

Actually, MED9.1.1 4.2 FSI has no rlsol_w hard cap if memory serves. VehiCAL will definitely help figuring stuff out, for sure.

cool, wheres it at?

great, i didnt know this tool. looks like it helps not only reading but mapping as well? thanks :)

also, as per my 9.1 FR, no constant load cap… so im divided atm :|

MED9.1 is turbo. You're just gonna have to find out.
But there's plenty of people on this forum who will go through your file and fix the cap, if there is one. It's a very small job and I'm sure you will find someone for a reasonable fee.
I doubt anyone is going to do it for free, because it still requires loading the file to IDA and finding the correct place.

vehical.net (http://vehical.net) - on MED9 only ram logging. LIVE is on MED17 and MG1.

i know, but still it would display SY_TURBO as the switch between 100.0 (or whatever) and rlmax_w (i assume), as on me7? theres no sign of this specific scenario.

great tool, took a quick look cuz on my cell right now, but will definitely try it :)

Not necessarily.

On ME7.1 SY_TURBO is a compile time constant

It also is on the newer ones, but the thing is that the whole codebase became so big, that the FR were adapted also to the current project a lot more.
The FR pretty much gets autogenerated based on the make config.

So much fewer of the SY_ switches present in the FR, they just automatically generate the correct flowchart for the actual software, so the constants are baked into the flowcharts.

I don't think you are going to find the EXACT correct FR unless you have factory contacts and deep pockets.

how can i find the cap then? any tips of what to follow? i was counting on the FR :\

Having tuned quite a few supercharged S5s with this ECU, I can 10000% tell you that there IS NO RLSOL_W CAP WHATSOEVER in the file!

When there is one, even if you don't have FR, you can log various load variables and then see where the limitation is coming from.
After that you use reversing tools to see what is going on.

But as there seems to be no load cap in this ECU, then you don't have to worry about it.

hi, i trully appreciate your input, its made my life a lot easier. so now i have to come up with a tuning strategy :)

when tuning these FI S5s did you use any external systems (like det3, standalone, etc), or everything was mapped into stock ecu using KFMIRL/KFPED/KFMIOP & any others? -- or even patched a boost pid??

thank you :)

Supercharger is a lot easier to tune for decent part throttle response vs turbo/twin turbo. And because it's mechanical, there is no need for any kind of boost PID, LOL!
I've tuned those cars 10000% on stock ECU without anything external only by using KFMIRL/KFMIOP/KFPED/KLRLNMXN.

so not having a LDRXN isnt a big deal?

KLRLNMXN is the LDRXN, but why do you care? With a supercharger nothing much changes.
The only issue is that pressure ratio will have to be baked into throttle maps, but it can be done because there is a mechanical 1:1 relationship.

With turbo there isn't, and it's a pain in the ass to make it drivable.
I certainly did algorithm modifications on all N/A ME7 that I tuned with a turbo on them. Specifically the throttle WOT algorithm needed mods as otherwise the car drove like shit with constant throttle cuts and not going WOT when it should.
And then the ECU needed turbo control based on ps_w: https://github.com/prj/C167BoostControl (https://github.com/prj/C167BoostControl)

You have 5 pages of text in here about theorycrafting. You're not going to be able to tune your car by theorycrafting here.
I can count the people in this forum on my fingers who actually went through the trouble to boost a N/A ME7+ car with turbos and actually succeeded in making it drive properly.
Most of the cars you see online drive like absolute shit on part throttle. With frequent jerks, throttle cuts and other issues.

And I do hope your car at least has a manual transmission, because if it's 6HP then that's yet another topic, which almost nobody in the aftermarket understands properly.
And no it's not going to run well without extensive adjustments.

i look forward to making it to your fingers list. but it wont happen in a day, so yes, i will make use of the resources i have available (i.e. this forum), and the thread will have 100 pages of necessary. thats why the forum exists… im not going against any rules by asking questions, and every response is appreciated, even yours. thats how learning happens.

and i dont care if you trash talk my project lol. if anything, this makes me want to make it happen even more.

btw, zf 6hp indeed.

It probably won't happen even in 5 or 6 years to get it running right.
Especially on 6HP.
Unless you take a shortcut and manage to find someone who will do things for you.

The thing you don't seem to understand is, that anyone can put together an older mechanical car.
Even on this car the fabrication is nothing special, at least there is no shortage of people in the world who will be able to fabricate all this.

But to do the software right is very difficult, and there are very few who could possibly do it, to a level where it runs well.
And the vast majority of those people are not going to give you the time of day.

Btw, theorycraft on a forum is not a "project".

Anyway, I'm done here.

(https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/3139027.jpg)

I gotta agree, its time to put the "theories" to the test.

Even if there is no rlsol cap , go ahead and request more than 100% load, which will be one thing, but can you get your actual load over 100% too?

You can do these things right now with minimal effort, and you can go on from there.
The automatic trans is going to give you major headaches for sure, SPECIALLY depending on how you will achieve boost control and load/torque shenanigans vs a turbo project.

just got excited with the news that theres most likely no cap and began deciding which turbo to go with and searching for a tig welder to work on the headers :)

And yet, theorycraft is exactly what you're doing here. on the S5 specifically, rl_w does and will go above 100% without a problem

dont worry friend, i just filter it out :)

again, thank you for the useful sharing of your experience. this has taken me one step further on the project. did you have any issues regarding the automatic transmission like mentioned above?

less talking - more doing.

Nothings gonna get done by talking about it. NO ONE is gonna give you the answer or do it for you.

Something tells me you are gonna talk about this until the cows come home and make zero progress other than dreaming.

why are you wasting your time here?

Because he is one of the people that I was counting on my fingers.
But good job, keep going and you're gonna piss everybody off who might have wanted to help you.

Eat some humble pie.

kindness is a two way street. whoever is willing to help, helps.